Polyamorous pecking order compromised

[SweetGigi]

So i have a friend who is in a poly-relationship with her Keeper and a 'second'. she and her Keeper have been together since 99 and have always had an understanding that they are Alpha and beta. When they welcomed this second into their relationship, my friend naturally assumed the same rules from past situations would apply to this one. However, things have a different feel to them for her now. her Keeper is spending more and more time with the second- and my friend has for the first time in 7 years started feeling like a third wheel in her relationship. My question to you all is how would you suggest she handle this delicate situation? How should she approach her Keeper with out betraying her jealous tendencies that have come to light lately?

 

[DeservingBitch]

So i have a friend who is in a poly-relationship with her Keeper and a 'second'. she and her Keeper have been together since 99 and have always had an understanding that they are Alpha and beta. When they welcomed this second into their relationship, my friend naturally assumed the same rules from past situations would apply to this one. However, things have a different feel to them for her now. her Keeper is spending more and more time with the second- and my friend has for the first time in 7 years started feeling like a third wheel in her relationship. My question to you all is how would you suggest she handle this delicate situation? How should she approach her Keeper with out betraying her jealous tendencies that have come to light lately?

Here are some of my thoughts, based on the way I deal with poly:

First, own your jealousy. It is OK to feel the way you feel, to voice those feelings to your partner(s), but those feelings are yours, not theirs. Take responsibility for your jealousy. Do not take your jealousy out on your partner or use it to try to change their behavior. Do not expect or demand them to cater to your jealousy.

In this particular situation, jealousy seems to be the symptom of your friend's recent feeling of insecurity and neglect in the relationship. This is what needs to be address and re-negociated. Time is a finite commodity, and the source of most heartaches in poly relationships. What needs to be address here is not so much the Keeper's relationship with the secondary partner, but rather the primary relationship. For instance, I would suggest that your friend voice her need for her partner to spend more time with her, rather than demand that he spends less time with the secondary partner. The former may or may not lead to the later, but it is to the Keeper to figure out a way to manage those two relationships without making anyone feel neglected.

Basically, your friend should keep the focus on her relationship with her partner, not on her partner's secondary relationship. Whether he's neglecting her and her needs because he's spending too much time with the other partner or because he's always on the golf course is irrelevant: what matters is that she needs more of his attention, time, affection, etc. This is what I would suggest she discuss with him.

These tips for practical poly negociations may be helpful too.

 

[Primalex]

Let's face it, it comes down to:
a) He wants a replacement for the Beta.
Then it doesn't really matter how the Beta approaches him.
b) He didn't notice that he neglected the Beta.
Then this needs to be brought to his attention.
c) He did neglect the Beta on purpose, f.e. to make the new partner feel more secure and welcomed.
Then he should have mentioned this to the Beta.

A guideline how the Beta should approach the Keeper is difficult, as I have no idea, how "normal" situations are handled between the Keeper and the Beta. My best advice is to treat it like the organization of the dinner. The Beta should express her concerns about the same way as her concerns about the lack of milk for dinner. It's up to the Keeper, to correct things if necessary.

 

[Chicklet]

I would advise her to be 100% honest about her feelings, and not pussyfoot around exactly what she needs and feels. A lot of people are too worried about coming across as a bitch and completely miss their points about what they want to say. Sometimes I write things down a couple of days in advance that I want to say, highlighting the extreme points of the upcoming conversation, and then edit them and do my best to incorporate them into the confrontation.

 

[EmpressFi]

I would suggest your friend read The Ethical Slut, especially chapter 7. That chapter deals with jealousy specifically, while the entire book is about being in open/poly relationships. I read this book shortly after meeting my Master in person and after Malin and I really threw ourselves into being poly.

What the person said about owning your jealousy is true. No one "made" your friend feel anything. Feelings are our own and we have to understand we have the right to feel what we feel, as long as we understand why we feel it.

But I would also say to your friend to talk to her Keeper about this. Communication and trust are the cornerstone to having a poly relationship. One partner cant go around wondering about the intentions and motives of the others. It could honestly be that he's just trying to make the new person feel secure. Or maybe he just doesnt realize what he's going. I'm going to assume that since they've had others before that it's not just the Keeper getting wrapped up in the excitement of a new relationship but it could be that too

 

[catalina_francisco]

My thoughts are assumptions are never good to rely on, especially when in poly arrangements. I notice most always look to place blame on the pyl in these situations, urging them to not be jealous, handle it, own it, communicate etc etc. My understanding, and I admit a bias as I am very open that I can never see how such an arrangement would work for me unless I actually welcomed someone coming in to divert his time and attention from me and what I might want to do, is that it is the place of the PYL to forsee possible problems when adding another and discuss it well in advance of it becoming an issue. If it does become an issue as it seems in this case, and he has not sensed it, perhaps he is guilty of being too wrapped up in his own feelings and priorities to notice how it is affecting his longterm and primary partner.

Catalina

 

[SweetGigi]

Thanks, y'all. I'll be passing this information on to the beta. please feel free to use this as a place to debate this topic as well as continue to offer words of advice.


keep it coming.

 

[ungenderless]

I've had this same thing happen to me. I was married, my ex-wife wanted more. So we developed a relationship with a girlfriend. She moved in, everything was fine. However, my ex-wife is transgender and her personality changed a lot. She was making a conscious effort to act more like a stereotypical male, and it ended up causing personality conflicts. The girlfriend was pretty high-maintenence, so I did end up spending more time with her than with my ex. But the ex would push us away while at the same time claiming that she was the one being pushed away. For example, instead of coming and talking to us, she would hide in her room

Okay, so honestly it's a LOT more complicated than that (but it would take forever to explain it all), but the point I'm trying to get across is that a poly relationship has a very delicate balance. It can work just fine while the people in it coexist in harmony. However, if one person grows or changes, it can offset everything. If I had to give one piece of advice, I would say communicate, communicate, communicate.

 

[Caitlynne]

There are so many things at play here. I'll try not to sound too preachy.

First, I'll never understand how any couple thinking of adding a third, believe they can maintain an absolute pecking order. The type of third that can live with being an absolute third is rare. Additionally, emotions and preferences change and are much more fluid in a poly situation. That's the very issue that needs to be understood and accepted by everyone. That there many come a time when one will get more attention. Then it will shift back and the other will get more attention, but in the end it will all balance out [if it's done right and everyone feels secure]

You might "think" you're going to keep a pecking order, but the truth is in a D/s type of relationship the Dominant is going to have preferences and they will change in a fluid manner. You're never going to get a dominant to get on some schedule where it's a "Ok, it's Tuesday it must be time to spend with X". Preferences that will change back and forth and the pecking order one month might change the next. It's fluid. That's the nature of poly.

There are exceptions to this, especially if the beta dominates the third, but the general gist of this is that time and preferences are VERY fluid. You cannot maintain a pecking order the way you maintain the order of children.

It is not like a mother and father adding a child. Those relationships are defined and can be kept absolute even if time fluctuates. Adding a third to become poly is not the same. Anyone who thinks that and relies on the status [pecking order] to maintain their balance and well being is going to run into some trouble, unless the Dominant "keeps" the order static. S/he has to keep the order in place for a pecking order to work. That's the key.

Then there is also the problem of 'frenzy'. The third enters into the relationship and she is "new". All the courting traditions will still take place. All the newness will still drive the relationship. It consumes time, which is the problem in poly relationships. Hell it is a problem in all relationships. If the beta doesn't understand the course of relationships and the frenzy at the beginning then she will feel threatened. Actually if the Dominant doesn't understand this and take steps to make sure the beta feels secure, you will have problems. This would be his responsibility as he is the one leading all the relationships. [don't want to put everything on the beta.]

The courting period will end, and things will level out. That's not to say, it isn't hard on the beta, and she should still voice her feelings, but some of it is just the natural evolution of relationships. In the beginning, there is a frenzy of sorts and that is time consuming.

But in any event, all these things have to be discussed. They have to be. Not only should she discuss this with her Keeper, but then they should all three sit down and talk about it as a group. Then I'd even suggest that the beta talk with the third privately. Get it all said and understood. This is a problem for the entire relationship, and there are four relationships to consider. The three of them, and each individual relationship one with another. It's complicated. 'That's why these are such difficult relationships to make work under the *best* of circumstances.

In a poly situation that works, the thirds will usually feel terrible if she knows that the beta is feeling abandoned. There is a specific mind set to a third. They usually become negotiators and peacemakers. Like I said a "third" usually has a very special mind set that is rare and in poly relationships that works the third is this rare breed. In the ones that don't work, the third is usually competing with the beta for time and attention. This is the crux of all problems in poly. Time.

When discussing the possibility of bring a third [or more] into a relationship, you have to really talk with the third and get her 'take' on time. It works best if the third has a real need to be alone instead of needing company. It allows for one less stress point if she needs to be alone at different times. Like I said it's a special breed that becomes a successful third and any Dominant, Keeper, etc needs to understand what dynamics in people will actually make it all work. And that is beyond all the attraction, desire, emotional considerations etc.

If I were the beta, I'd begin a conversation. I'd explain my feelings. I'd also relate that I knew that time is fluid and that preferences can be the same way. I'd then say that I felt abandoned. Which is what she really does feel. I'd ask for help from my Keeper in handling my own fears and insecurities. I'd ask for guidance. I'd ask for his leadership at a time when I could not handle what I was feeling. That is after all what a Dominant is for. To lead. To use for counsel when possible. I'd ask for his help.

Then I'd do the same with the third. I'd explain how I felt and ask for help in dealing with difficult emotions.

I'd own my feeling as my own. It's true you cannot blame the others, but I'd ask for their help. I'd ask for their love in a time when I was lost and afraid.

 

[nh23]

Here are some of my thoughts, based on the way I deal with poly:

First, own your jealousy. It is OK to feel the way you feel, to voice those feelings to your partner(s), but those feelings are yours, not theirs. Take responsibility for your jealousy. Do not take your jealousy out on your partner or use it to try to change their behavior. Do not expect or demand them to cater to your jealousy.

In this particular situation, jealousy seems to be the symptom of your friend's recent feeling of insecurity and neglect in the relationship. This is what needs to be address and re-negociated. Time is a finite commodity, and the source of most heartaches in poly relationships. What needs to be address here is not so much the Keeper's relationship with the secondary partner, but rather the primary relationship. For instance, I would suggest that your friend voice her need for her partner to spend more time with her, rather than demand that he spends less time with the secondary partner. The former may or may not lead to the later, but it is to the Keeper to figure out a way to manage those two relationships without making anyone feel neglected.

Basically, your friend should keep the focus on her relationship with her partner, not on her partner's secondary relationship. Whether he's neglecting her and her needs because he's spending too much time with the other partner or because he's always on the golf course is irrelevant: what matters is that she needs more of his attention, time, affection, etc. This is what I would suggest she discuss with him.

These tips for practical poly negociations may be helpful too.

I agree with this. Communication in any relationship is key, but I've found for us it's even more important in a poly relationship. If he or I are having feelings either of us don't know how to deal with..we stop, sit down and discuss things. It has always worked out in the end. Your friends Keeper may not even realize that he is acting any different. When you throw a new person into the mix things can get exciting to the point where he is blinded to how he may be making her feel.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I notice most always look to place blame on the pyl in these situations, urging them to not be jealous, handle it, own it, communicate etc etc.

...

it is the place of the PYL to forsee possible problems when adding another and discuss it well in advance of it becoming an issue. If it does become an issue as it seems in this case, and he has not sensed it, perhaps he is guilty of being too wrapped up in his own feelings and priorities to notice how it is affecting his longterm and primary partner.

Catalina

Suggesting that one needs to own their feelings, ie, take responsibility for their feelings is NOT the same as blaming them for feeling that way, NOR the same as telling them to not feel that way.

I have a right to my feelings, I am entitled to feel the way I do, and I am entitled in a relationship to voice those feelings and have them acknowledged and taken into account. However, those feelings are mine. And when we're talking about jealousy, more often than not, this feeling is only the symptom of something else going on, rather than the main problem.

In this case, I see the issue as being the OP's friend feeling neglected and insecure in her relationship with her partner. The jealousy she feels toward her partner's secondary partner is only tangential. In other words, the problem is not the secondary partner. The problem is between the OP's friend and the Keeper. She needs more of his time, more of his attention, she needs to be reassured that she's not going to be dumped in favor of someone else, etc. This is what needs to be addressed. And this can all be done without involving the secondary partner in the discussion, and without making her feeling of jealousy the focus of the problem. As I said in my previous post, the source of the neglect that she feels doesn't really matter: whether she feels neglected and insecure in the relationship because he's spending too much time with another partner, a friend, at his work, or on the golf course is irrelevant. What's relevant is her needs to feel secure in this relationship and to be given the attention, time, and affection she needs. It is up to him to find a way to manage his time and re-assert his priorities in order to address her needs and feelings.

 

[catalina_francisco]

In other words, the problem is not the secondary partner. The problem is between the OP's friend and the Keeper. She needs more of his time, more of his attention, she needs to be reassured that she's not going to be dumped in favor of someone else, etc. This is what needs to be addressed. And this can all be done without involving the secondary partner in the discussion, and without making her feeling of jealousy the focus of the problem. As I said in my previous post, the source of the neglect that she feels doesn't really matter: whether she feels neglected and insecure in the relationship because he's spending too much time with another partner, a friend, at his work, or on the golf course is irrelevant. What's relevant is her needs to feel secure in this relationship and to be given the attention, time, and affection she needs. It is up to him to find a way to manage his time and re-assert his priorities in order to address her needs and feelings.

Which is basically what I said, I don't entirely agree it has nothing to do with the secondary partner (as opposed to any other reason for lack of time)..in part it does, but human emotions are not so easily compartmentalised, and if the secondary relationship had net begun, likely there would not be an issue. Sometimes people are just not meant for poly, and I don't see anything wrong or negative with that...and as was said elsewhere, sometimes those coming into such a poly arrangement are not doing so with a poly mindset or a mentality of fair play and sharing. I find the biggest problem from the information we have been given is the PYL seems to be completely oblivious anything is wrong. After 7 years with another, you pick up vibes when all is not well if you are tuned into them and their welfare and the relationship. Primarily it is his problem to deal with as he is the PYL...neither pyl is in the position to be directing the overall situation, neither can or should be expected to deal with it without his inclusion and direction.

As to what I said about people looking to the primary pyl to shoulder responsibility for what is happening, it is true...9 times out of 10 when such posts are placed here, people immediately blame and look to what is wrong with the primary partner who is having some difficulty with the situation for whatever reason, sprinkled with lots of preaching about the badness of jealousy etc.....very subjective and misdirected IMHO.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

There are so many things at play here. I'll try not to sound too preachy.

First, I'll never understand how any couple thinking of adding a third, believe they can maintain an absolute pecking order. The type of third that can live with being an absolute third is rare. Additionally, emotions and preferences change and are much more fluid in a poly situation. That's the very issue that needs to be understood and accepted by everyone. That there many come a time when one will get more attention. Then it will shift back and the other will get more attention, but in the end it will all balance out [if it's done right and everyone feels secure]

You might "think" you're going to keep a pecking order, but the truth is in a D/s type of relationship the Dominant is going to have preferences and they will change in a fluid manner. You're never going to get a dominant to get on some schedule where it's a "Ok, it's Tuesday it must be time to spend with X". Preferences that will change back and forth and the pecking order one month might change the next. It's fluid. That's the nature of poly.

There are exceptions to this, especially if the beta dominates the third, but the general gist of this is that time and preferences are VERY fluid. You cannot maintain a pecking order the way you maintain the order of children.

It is not like a mother and father adding a child. Those relationships are defined and can be kept absolute even if time fluctuates. Adding a third to become poly is not the same. Anyone who thinks that and relies on the status [pecking order] to maintain their balance and well being is going to run into some trouble, unless the Dominant "keeps" the order static. S/he has to keep the order in place for a pecking order to work. That's the key.

Then there is also the problem of 'frenzy'. The third enters into the relationship and she is "new". All the courting traditions will still take place. All the newness will still drive the relationship. It consumes time, which is the problem in poly relationships. Hell it is a problem in all relationships. If the beta doesn't understand the course of relationships and the frenzy at the beginning then she will feel threatened. Actually if the Dominant doesn't understand this and take steps to make sure the beta feels secure, you will have problems. This would be his responsibility as he is the one leading all the relationships. [don't want to put everything on the beta.]

The courting period will end, and things will level out. That's not to say, it isn't hard on the beta, and she should still voice her feelings, but some of it is just the natural evolution of relationships. In the beginning, there is a frenzy of sorts and that is time consuming.

But in any event, all these things have to be discussed. They have to be. Not only should she discuss this with her Keeper, but then they should all three sit down and talk about it as a group. Then I'd even suggest that the beta talk with the third privately. Get it all said and understood. This is a problem for the entire relationship, and there are four relationships to consider. The three of them, and each individual relationship one with another. It's complicated. 'That's why these are such difficult relationships to make work under the *best* of circumstances.

In a poly situation that works, the thirds will usually feel terrible if she knows that the beta is feeling abandoned. There is a specific mind set to a third. They usually become negotiators and peacemakers. Like I said a "third" usually has a very special mind set that is rare and in poly relationships that works the third is this rare breed. In the ones that don't work, the third is usually competing with the beta for time and attention. This is the crux of all problems in poly. Time.

When discussing the possibility of bring a third [or more] into a relationship, you have to really talk with the third and get her 'take' on time. It works best if the third has a real need to be alone instead of needing company. It allows for one less stress point if she needs to be alone at different times. Like I said it's a special breed that becomes a successful third and any Dominant, Keeper, etc needs to understand what dynamics in people will actually make it all work. And that is beyond all the attraction, desire, emotional considerations etc.

If I were the beta, I'd begin a conversation. I'd explain my feelings. I'd also relate that I knew that time is fluid and that preferences can be the same way. I'd then say that I felt abandoned. Which is what she really does feel. I'd ask for help from my Keeper in handling my own fears and insecurities. I'd ask for guidance. I'd ask for his leadership at a time when I could not handle what I was feeling. That is after all what a Dominant is for. To lead. To use for counsel when possible. I'd ask for his help.

Then I'd do the same with the third. I'd explain how I felt and ask for help in dealing with difficult emotions.

I'd own my feeling as my own. It's true you cannot blame the others, but I'd ask for their help. I'd ask for their love in a time when I was lost and afraid.

I couldn't agree more with everything in this post.

 

[Netzach]

Which is basically what I said, I don't entirely agree it has nothing to do with the secondary partner (as opposed to any other reason for lack of time)..in part it does, but human emotions are not so easily compartmentalised, and if the secondary relationship had net begun, likely there would not be an issue. Sometimes people are just not meant for poly, and I don't see anything wrong or negative with that...and as was said elsewhere, sometimes those coming into such a poly arrangement are not doing so with a poly mindset or a mentality of fair play and sharing. I find the biggest problem from the information we have been given is the PYL seems to be completely oblivious anything is wrong. After 7 years with another, you pick up vibes when all is not well if you are tuned into them and their welfare and the relationship. Primarily it is his problem to deal with as he is the PYL...neither pyl is in the position to be directing the overall situation, neither can or should be expected to deal with it without his inclusion and direction.

Catalina

If they're not cut out for it then they have no business doing it, do they?

That's what I'd call the number 1 predictor of most misery. People who haven't got the ability or inclination hanging around to keep the relationship rather than realizing it won't work and getting on with life. Saying in the early days of lust "fuck anyone you want" and then punishing you for doing that.

I see a LOT of negative and wrong with telling someone you love you are able to do something for their sake that you KNOW you can't don't want to and don't have your heart in and never will. Kind of like when my ex said he was fine with my being into SM but wasn't fine with me every time I did anything about it - it's not my fault for refusing to be held hostage to the needs of someone whose basic needs are never going to allow for mine.

Not being poly isn't a crime, doing it anyway for all the wrong reasons isn't just "well gee it's my right to be as unhappy as possible and never let anyone else forget it" ok. I certainly wasn't faultless in that example, nor was everything my fault either. I did at least realize that I'd never again settle for a relationship in which I wasn't free to meet any needs that were really affecting me without having the guilt piled on till I'd rather die.

 

[BiBunny]

If they're not cut out for it then they have no business doing it, do they?

That's what I'd call the number 1 predictor of most misery. People who haven't got the ability or inclination hanging around to keep the relationship rather than realizing it won't work and getting on with life.

I see a LOT of negative and wrong with telling someone you love you are able to do something for their sake that you KNOW you can't don't want to and don't have your heart in and never will. Kind of like when my ex said he was fine with my being into SM but wasn't fine with me every time I did anything about it - it's not my fault for refusing to be held hostage to the needs of someone whose basic needs are never going to allow for mine.

Not being poly isn't a crime, doing it anyway for all the wrong reasons isn't just "well gee it's my right to be as unhappy as possible and never let anyone else forget it" ok. I certainly wasn't faultless in that example, nor was everything my fault either. I did at least realize that I'd never again settle for a relationship in which I wasn't free to meet any needs that were really affecting me without having the guilt piled on till I'd rather die.

Yes, yes, and more yes. I have so much more I could say to this, but it'd be venturing into dangerous emotional territory for me, so I won't. Suffice it to say that I've never read something that summed my feelings on the subject up so nicely.

 

[catalina_francisco]

If they're not cut out for it then they have no business doing it, do they?

That's what I'd call the number 1 predictor of most misery. People who haven't got the ability or inclination hanging around to keep the relationship rather than realizing it won't work and getting on with life.

I see a LOT of negative and wrong with telling someone you love you are able to do something for their sake that you KNOW you can't don't want to and don't have your heart in and never will. Not being poly isn't a crime, doing it anyway for all the wrong reasons isn't just "well gee it's my right to be as unhappy as possible and never let anyone else forget it" ok.

Exactly, but sometimes people (especially pyl's), try to please or go along with the PYL's wishes, sometimes they genuinely feel they will be able to handle it, sometimes they are promised a lot of support through the process only to find the support does not happen when the going gets tough. No crime in trying to please, or being human enough to not be perfect or find not everyone brought into the arrangement is going to fit. I think it speaks volumes there seems to be more success in such arrangements when it is a Domme doing the directing. As to rights where feelings are concerned...unfortunately for most of us there are always going to be moments in life when we cannot control our feelings to the level we would like, or have them all very nicely compartmentalised, it is natural unless you have ice in your veins and can cut off your emotions when you want, which I never find healthy or conducive to healthy relationships. Everyone has a right to have feelings, no-one has a right to tell them what those feeling must be.

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

Sometimes people are just not meant for poly, and I don't see anything wrong or negative with that...and as was said elsewhere, sometimes those coming into such a poly arrangement are not doing so with a poly mindset or a mentality of fair play and sharing.

Well then the solution is simple: get the fuck out of this relationship.

No, not being able to do poly is not a crime nor is it wrong. What's wrong though is to stay in a poly relationship that you've agreed to, or stay with someone who's made it clear that they are poly, and then expect the relationship or your partner to become monogamous because you can't deal with it.

My understanding from the OP first post is that this couple have been poly for a while, and have successfully managed their poly arrangement in the past.

 

[Netzach]

Exactly, but sometimes people (especially pyl's), try to please or go along with the PYL's wishes, sometimes they genuinely feel they will be able to handle it, sometimes they are promised a lot of support through the process only to find the support does not happen when the going gets tough. No crime in trying to please, or being human enough to not be perfect or find not everyone brought into the arrangement is going to fit. I think it speaks volumes there seems to be more success in such arrangements when it is a Domme doing the directing. As to rights where feelings are concerned...unfortunately for most of us there are always going to be moments in life when we cannot control our feelings to the level we would like, it is natural unless you have ice in your veins and can cut off your emotions when you want, which I never find healthy or conducive to healthy relationships. Everyone has a right to have feelings, no-one has a right to tell them what those feeling must be.

Catalina

I've often said the only reason I think my shit works is that I'm the only girl, as politically incorrect as that may be.

I think boys share better, it's not just to my credit for being able to smell when someone's unhappy.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I've often said the only reason I think my shit works is that I'm the only girl, as politically incorrect as that may be.

I think boys share better, it's not just to my credit for being able to smell when someone's unhappy.

LOL, from what I see it seems to work better for a Domme whether with girls or boys..I think it is down to a number of reasons.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Well then the solution is simple: get the fuck out of this relationship.

No, not being able to do poly is not a crime nor is it wrong. What's wrong though is to stay in a poly relationship that you've agreed to, or stay with someone who's made it clear that they are poly, and then expect the relationship or your partner to become monogamous because you can't deal with it.

My understanding from the OP first post is that this couple have been poly for a while, and have successfully managed their poly arrangement in the past.

I've been jealous of some of my Bull's other sexual contacts, I'll admit it.

I've learned to just ask for what I want, which is some attention some focus, and a reminder that I'm still inimitable and perfect and all that. It works well. He still gets to go whisk them away for a dirty weekend and I'm still not psyched about it, but if I feel sufficiently valued I'm probably off to other things and not dwelling on it at all, really. On most levels, I like it. It's still always going to be a conflicted kind of pleasure, interesting and tense.

 

[nh23]

If they're not cut out for it then they have no business doing it, do they?

That's what I'd call the number 1 predictor of most misery. People who haven't got the ability or inclination hanging around to keep the relationship rather than realizing it won't work and getting on with life. Saying in the early days of lust "fuck anyone you want" and then punishing you for doing that.

I see a LOT of negative and wrong with telling someone you love you are able to do something for their sake that you KNOW you can't don't want to and don't have your heart in and never will. Kind of like when my ex said he was fine with my being into SM but wasn't fine with me every time I did anything about it - it's not my fault for refusing to be held hostage to the needs of someone whose basic needs are never going to allow for mine.

Not being poly isn't a crime, doing it anyway for all the wrong reasons isn't just "well gee it's my right to be as unhappy as possible and never let anyone else forget it" ok. I certainly wasn't faultless in that example, nor was everything my fault either. I did at least realize that I'd never again settle for a relationship in which I wasn't free to meet any needs that were really affecting me without having the guilt piled on till I'd rather die.

*nods* Poly takes a lot of maturity, the ability to effectively communicate your needs etc.. and most of all that all the people involved are involved because it's what they truly want. You have to be in it because it's want you want/need. Doing it to please someone else is going to lead to huge problems eventually.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well then the solution is simple: get the fuck out of this relationship.

No, not being able to do poly is not a crime nor is it wrong. What's wrong though is to stay in a poly relationship that you've agreed to, or stay with someone who's made it clear that they are poly, and then expect the relationship or your partner to become monogamous because you can't deal with it.

My understanding from the OP first post is that this couple have been poly for a while, and have successfully managed their poly arrangement in the past.

Wow, I do so envy you your obvious ability to switch your emotions when in a relationship. Personally, say after 5+ years of F and I being together he just up and brought in another who firstly had no interest in me or me being here, and knowing it is not my idea of the perfect relationship model...I am supposed to walk out the door, leave my marriage, forget our agreements as M/s, and as well as all that, feel nothing and take the responsibility it is me who has to go as I am not interested in poly and obviously the one in the way? Hmm, I am happy I am with someone who has a little more insight into human emotions, rights, and responsibility.

And I get the same understanding from the OP, which is why I don't think it is a question of whether the pyl is suited to poly, but more so who the other pyl is and personalities, or the actions of the PYL...far different to the need to be shown the door or told to get over it.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Wow, I do so envy you your obvious ability to switch your emotions when in a relationship. Personally, say after 5+ years of F and I being together he just up and brought in another who firstly had no interest in me or me being here, and knowing it is not my idea of the perfect relationship model...I am supposed to walk out the door, leave my marriage, forget our agreements as M/s, and as well as all that, feel nothing and take the responsibility it is me who has to go as I am not interested in poly and obviously the one in the way? Hmm, I am happy I am with someone who has a little more insight into human emotions, rights, and responsibility.

And I get the same understanding from the OP, which is why I don't think it is a question of whether the pyl is suited to poly, but more so who the other pyl is and personalities, or the actions of the PYL...far different to the need to be shown the door or told to get over it.

Catalina

Honestly if I have a slave and they have no limits and they can't seem to be adjusting no matter what I do and they are becoming the source of more misery than not when I am doing *exactly* what I told them to expect, then yeah, they're outta there. I do not have infinite patience with anyone and I do not have slave-like use for someone who cannot make the adjustment around my fundamental nature. It's not 'cause they're bad people it would be called a rift or an impasse, just them and me being not a fit.

However, I never suggested that they might be kept on if they could not handle the fact that they will not be the only one. It's practically stamped on a little card I hand to people with my personal mission statement on it if I had such things. If I got a lot more action I might have it tattooed above my pussy "you will never be the only one, get over it"

I think bait-and-switch is the number 2 predictor of misery.

 

[Caitlynne]

Suggesting that one needs to own their feelings, ie, take responsibility for their feelings is NOT the same as blaming them for feeling that way, NOR the same as telling them to not feel that way.

Agreed. All to often we get the concepts of "responsibility" confused with "blame". They aren't necessarily the same thing. We all should take responsibility for how we react to something--i.e. our emotions, because they are ours. You can put 100 people in the exact same situation and there will be a multitude of different reactions.

When we 'feel' something for the most part, it's important to not say "You did this to me". "You made me feel this way". That's blaming someone for how we feel.

It's more productive and more honest in the long run to say, "this situation is bothering me and *I'm* having a hard time with it. Can I talk to you about it?" That is addressing both, owning one's feelings and directing the conversation to "the situation" and asking help with a solution.

 

[catalina_francisco]

*nods* Poly takes a lot of maturity, the ability to effectively communicate your needs etc.. and most of all that all the people involved are involved because it's what they truly want. You have to be in it because it's want you want/need. Doing it to please someone else is going to lead to huge problems eventually.

Have to agree....though for me, unless my libido plunges desperately, poly is just not going to work. LOL, one of the problems I had in previous relationships was finding someone who could keep up with my libido...thankfully F is the first to come close, but if he had to share that with someone else, moi would no longer be very happy, an it was one of the things I was clear and upfront about needing from a PYL I intended to spend the rest of my life with. As it is he says I have aged him and worn him out...mmmm, but I do so love how much more body hair he has since we met.

Catalina