Pointless argumentative thread alert

[Lisa Denton]

I can respect the notion that "I don't care about religious argument because I don't believe in religion", but only to a point. Its a lot like saying "I don't care about political argument because I don't believe in politics"...

...lack of belief in politics doesn't mean they don't affect you. The understanding of religion is essential to dealing with the 5.6 Billion religious people on the planet. A lack of understanding, of formal information and even debate, is a breeding ground for misconceptions and possible biases.

I can respect a willful decision not to care, but I think apathy in the matter does more harm than good in society.



...you're not serious...

...are you?

Pointless arguements? Debating politics and religion with porn authors? Not voicing an opinion on anything other than how wrong others are?

Now you want to bash apathy?

Has the thought ever crossed your mind that one or two of the 5.6 billion religious people on this planet probably don't want your understanding or wish to debate your information.

I can guarantee that one or two of those who don't care, neither want you understanding or debate.

Maybe we should just take all these sicko's who say "live and let live" and the really kinky ones who say "I don't care about a persons politics or religion as long as they are a good person" and round them up somewhere and nuke em till they glow and then shoot em in the dark.

You crossed the line when you said you think apathy does more harm than good in society. I respect the man who says "I don't care." The man who says "I am right and I'm gonna kill every MF who don't freakin agree with me" deserves no respect in society.

Perhaps you wish to re-phrase that sentence? Or you may wish to dis-assemble this post and attack it sentence by sentence as being niether logical nor rational, while you attempt to defend a ludicrous remark.

 

[minsue]

Wow. That was a bit hostile, donchya think?

 

[Guest]

Lisa, I don't understand your attitude (sorry, it's the best word I can think of at the moment) above. I've read lots of Joe's posts and he's always thoughtful in trying to come to clarity about his and others' points. He's basically non-judgmental, even objective. He does not strike me as saying anyone is wrong so much as showing how their logic does not always work to the effect they want. He gives every chance and opportunity for anyone to engage in discussion.

As for 'apathy', it's always been an inherently negative quality for me. I don't understand what you think it is.

Perdita

 

[Lisa Denton]

Wow. That was a bit hostile, donchya think?

Uh yea. But see, I been watching the thread since it started and I didn't care enough to jump in, then I felt like I was attacked for my apathy. My apathy is very personal and dear to me and I will defend it to the death, he, he.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Lisa, I don't understand your attitude (sorry, it's the best word I can think of at the moment) above. I've read lots of Joe's posts and he's always thoughtful in trying to come to clarity about his and others' points. He's basically non-judgmental, even objective. He does not strike me as saying anyone is wrong so much as showing how their logic does not always work to the effect they want. He gives every chance and opportunity for anyone to engage in discussion.

As for 'apathy', it's always been an inherently negative quality for me. I don't understand what you think it is.

Perdita

Mum, are you sayin I'm gonna have to apologize to him, again?

 

[Guest]

Mum, are you sayin I'm gonna have to apologize to him, again?

No, no, no. I rarely apologize and I would never tell anyone else to. I really did not understand the point of your post, and as it was rather passionate it concerned me.

smooches, Mum

 

[The Mutt]

Did you hear about the dyslexic atheist? He didn't believe in dogs.

 

[matriarch]

Mum, are you sayin I'm gonna have to apologize to him, again?

I hope not!
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

I admire your restraint for not joining in this pointless (well named Min) and interminable thread - here and in the others where Joe has gleefully and arrogantly continued to play with the opinions and beliefs of every one who has posted. He's really been enjoying playing with his new toy. Patronisation is such addictive fun when your victims keep coming back for more.

And dammit, now I've gone and broken my own rules. Now I have to switch off and walk away.

 

[The Mutt]

Me? I just love to argue.

 

[Lisa Denton]

No, no, no. I rarely apologize and I would never tell anyone else to. I really did not understand the point of your post, and as it was rather passionate it concerned me.

smooches, Mum

Oh I got passionate while I was writing it. See, I had this dear friend, she is bi-polar,who now hates me. Every day for years I would listen each day for hours and try to calm and re-assure her that she was right and everybody else was wrong. I tried to question whether she was right and was met with an intense suspicious gaze. This went on over a year, with me agreeing with her, I thought I was being supportive. One day my world came crashind down on me and I asked her if we could talk about something else, please. She said that apathy is hatred and hostile and she never wants to speak to me again. Because one day, one time, I didn't care. I can't forgive myself for that, but I never meant to hurt her. Is apathy so bad? Compared to hostility and bigotry and hatred, is apathy so bad?

 

[Guest]

She said that apathy is hatred and hostile and she never wants to speak to me again. Because one day, one time, I didn't care. I can't forgive myself for that, but I never meant to hurt her. Is apathy so bad? Compared to hostility and bigotry and hatred, is apathy so bad?

Apathy is not what you were being with your friend. Apathy is indifference, a lack of concern,; it is anti-pathos (feelings, emotions). The people in Germany (and elsewhere) who even only had an idea of what was happening in the camps, but chose to be indifferent (even if out of fear) were apathetic. Apathy on that large a scale produces evil.

We all at some point say we don't care about something important (religion, politics, etc.), but it usually comes about because we really do care only we feel helpless. That is not apathy.

Mum

 

[shereads]

I won't have a sudden epiphany and believe in one or more deities and I'm not quite arrogant enough to believe that my powers of persuasion will cause anyone to denounce their own.

Don't be coy, Min. You know perfectly well that without your encouragement I would never have left the convent.

 

[shereads]

Did you hear about the dyslexic atheist? He didn't believe in dogs.

 

[Lisa Denton]

I hope not!
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

I admire your restraint for not joining in this pointless (well named Min) and interminable thread - here and in the others where Joe has gleefully and arrogantly continued to play with the opinions and beliefs of every one who has posted. He's really been enjoying playing with his new toy. Patronisation is such addictive fun when your victims keep coming back for more.

And dammit, now I've gone and broken my own rules. Now I have to switch off and walk away.

Thanks Mat, but I think I stuck my foot in my mouth cause mom perdita only questions me when I'm gonna come to the conclusion that I was wrong.
I already think I came across a little heavy but I got into it.
I don't think Joe means any harm, though he does seem to enjoy debating. But he could have hobbies like mass-murder or terrorism which would be worse.
I gotta sit and think about this, did I do him wrong?

 

[shereads]

{a sidetrack but not hijack for Lisa:



Bipolor disorder can be nearly as miserable for friends and family as it is for the sufferer. Your friend is fortunate to have someone who's willing to be there even part of the time. If you were offering friendship to the victim of a more typical illness, you could expect a typical response to your moment of frustration and exhaustion. It's harder this way; you can't be certain whether your friend knows just how good a friend you've been. Real apathy would be a relief, but that doesn't seem to apply here. Don't beat yourself up if you can't be "on" all the time. That would be superhuman.}

I return the cockpit to Min and go back to my private sleeper compartment in Upper Class...Where the hell is the flight attendant with my sleep mask and slippers?

 

[doormouse]

No way, Lisa.

You had a point to make, and you made it well.

If he wants to debate and step on someone's toes, he has to expect the other side of the arguement.

Not have everyone who dares to think differently attacked by mother goose for sharing their opinion.

 

[matriarch]

Lisa, I will not join in.
I have pm-ed.

Mat

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Don't worry Lisa,

Joe has a habit of this. You're opinion is appreciated. I've been watching but never commented. Keep posting. Doormouse/FKC loves them and I love her laugh when you post.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Mat, but I think I stuck my foot in my mouth cause mom perdita only questions me when I'm gonna come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

Lisa, hon, I reread my posts to you and do not think I in any way said you were 'wrong', I only wanted to better understand what you wrote. And I think you can see I do now in my last note to you above. I also do not see that I was in any way saying you were not entitled to your opinion; again, your opinion did not make sense to me (only me is what should have been clear).

I don't see that you should be concerned either about having done Joe wrong. He strikes me as being able to take care of himself here.

You take care too, Mum

 

[Lisa Denton]

{a sidetrack but not hijack for Lisa:



Bipolor disorder can be nearly as miserable for friends and family as it is for the sufferer. Your friend is fortunate to have someone who's willing to be there even part of the time. If you were offering friendship to the victim of a more typical illness, you could expect a typical response to your moment of frustration and exhaustion. It's harder this way; you can't be certain whether your friend knows just how good a friend you've been. Real apathy would be a relief, but that doesn't seem to apply here. Don't beat yourself up if you can't be "on" all the time. That would be superhuman.}

I return the cockpit to Min and go back to my private sleeper compartment in Upper Class...Where the hell is the flight attendant with my sleep mask and slippers?

Thanks shereads, but in this case I blew it. The one time I wasn't on was the last time. She hasn't forgiven me and doesn't speak to me or return my calls. I should have tried to explain to her what had happened to me that day but we never got that far. Unfortunately I think that for her, I was her only hope, and when I wasn't there she was lost. It was my fault, I handled it wrong, I must have, because I can never fix it.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Lisa, hon, I reread my posts to you and do not think I in any way said you were 'wrong', I only wanted to better understand what you wrote. And I think you can see I do now in my last note to you above. I also do not see that I was in any way saying you were not entitled to your opinion; again, your opinion did not make sense to me (only me is what should have been clear).

I don't see that you should be concerned either about having done Joe wrong. He strikes me as being able to take care of himself here.

You take care too, Mum

See how my words make sense to me untill I re-read them and go WTF? No, no perdita, what I meant was the comment you made about not understanding what I said. I wrote that you questioned me which you did not. You do however make me think whenever you post because I respect your opinions and intelligence so much. I know you did not say I was wrong.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Don't worry Lisa,

Joe has a habit of this. You're opinion is appreciated. I've been watching but never commented. Keep posting. Doormouse/FKC loves them and I love her laugh when you post.

Thanks LDW and doormouse, I screwed up and got all serious and shoulda just made one of my jokes. I like to laugh and have fun. I think I broke my own rule "thou shalt not say anything to hurt anyone's feelings" and I was just fired up and not thinking.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I don't know quite what to say. I just got back to the thread and a lot of things have been brought up. I suppose I ought start with an apology if anything I've yet said has offended anyone--it never was a point.

Past that, I can only defend myself by saying that its not that I like to start arguments out of some desire for conflict or arrogance. Quite often, it just happens due to someone putting forth an idea that is either questionable or wrong.

Ideas, expressions, statements, assertions... I don't think any author here would disagree that those are powerful and quickly transmitted things. Who hasn't been involved in a rumor-mill where a false statement spreads like wildfire?

For ought that a lot of people argue with me on here about "freedom of thought" and "open mindedness", its notions like "analyzing my beliefs is wrong" and "debating about someone's opinion is wrong" that are truly preaching a limitation on free-thinking and a closing of mindedness.

I don't jump and point fingers at everything that's said on here that I disagree with... but the moment someone is willing to put forth to the community ideas like "Believing in God makes you a moron" is the moment that a risk is run, and that wildfire rumormill is in action.

Everyone may like to think that their opinions are solid and nobody "can ever convince anyone of anything" for this reason or that, but the truth is... a lot of us get our opinions on life, politics, religion, and philosophy from other people. The people we deeply respect can give us advice that we're more likely to accept, they have a lot of authority by virtue of being important or respectable.

So, if people can be influenced by what others say, what kind of harm are we doing to readers or people out there by letting things like "If you're Christian, you're deluded" slide by without at least a reasonable nod of "No, not necessarily"? What if the situation were flipped and I made a point of coming on here, starting topics with religious or political overtones, and being simply irrational and offensive toward atheisms or alternate theisms?

Wouldn't somebody feel honor-bound, feel like it would only be fair, to either (1) get me to rethink my position or (2) show the rest of the world that I may not be right?

I don't start arguments, ya'll... I don't even tell people that they're wrong. I show them the basics of reason and hope those watching--who may have been convinced of something false--see that they're not "deluded" or "moronic", just because some asshole decided to be a jerk and say they were.

If that makes me a thread high-jacker or "just some kid"...

...well, then I think we're not being as open-minded to polite criticism as we should be.

 

[Lisa Denton]

I don't know quite what to say. I just got back to the thread and a lot of things have been brought up. I suppose I ought start with an apology if anything I've yet said has offended anyone--it never was a point.

Past that, I can only defend myself by saying that its not that I like to start arguments out of some desire for conflict or arrogance. Quite often, it just happens due to someone putting forth an idea that is either questionable or wrong.

Ideas, expressions, statements, assertions... I don't think any author here would disagree that those are powerful and quickly transmitted things. Who hasn't been involved in a rumor-mill where a false statement spreads like wildfire?

For ought that a lot of people argue with me on here about "freedom of thought" and "open mindedness", its notions like "analyzing my beliefs is wrong" and "debating about someone's opinion is wrong" that are truly preaching a limitation on free-thinking and a closing of mindedness.

I don't jump and point fingers at everything that's said on here that I disagree with... but the moment someone is willing to put forth to the community ideas like "Believing in God makes you a moron" is the moment that a risk is run, and that wildfire rumormill is in action.

Everyone may like to think that their opinions are solid and nobody "can ever convince anyone of anything" for this reason or that, but the truth is... a lot of us get our opinions on life, politics, religion, and philosophy from other people. The people we deeply respect can give us advice that we're more likely to accept, they have a lot of authority by virtue of being important or respectable.

So, if people can be influenced by what others say, what kind of harm are we doing to readers or people out there by letting things like "If you're Christian, you're deluded" slide by without at least a reasonable nod of "No, not necessarily"? What if the situation were flipped and I made a point of coming on here, starting topics with religious or political overtones, and being simply irrational and offensive toward atheisms or alternate theisms?

Wouldn't somebody feel honor-bound, feel like it would only be fair, to either (1) get me to rethink my position or (2) show the rest of the world that I may not be right?

I don't start arguments, ya'll... I don't even tell people that they're wrong. I show them the basics of reason and hope those watching--who may have been convinced of something false--see that they're not "deluded" or "moronic", just because some asshole decided to be a jerk and say they were.

If that makes me a thread high-jacker or "just some kid"...

...well, then I think we're not being as open-minded to polite criticism as we should be.

Said with style Joe. I decided not to apologize for my remarks but I did come across a little stronger than I intended.
I respect your intelligence and enjoy an occasional "debate" with someone who can give as good as they take.
Your o.k., but I stand by my original post.

I'm off to make some jokes and play.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Thanks LDW and doormouse, I screwed up and got all serious and shoulda just made one of my jokes. I like to laugh and have fun. I think I broke my own rule "thou shalt not say anything to hurt anyone's feelings" and I was just fired up and not thinking.

Nahhhhhhhhhhh, you didn't screw up Lisa. You stood up for what you believed. We all respect that. Keep speaking your mind. Everyone loves to hear it.