Pointless argumentative thread alert

[minsue]

I don't want to continue threadjacking, but I must ask you, Joe:

Do you really think that the US involvement in Korea and Vietnam had nothing to do with religion? The US added god to the pledge of allegiance to further distance us from the 'godless' communists, for crying out loud.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
I don't want to continue threadjacking, but I must ask you, Joe:

Do you really think that the US involvement in Korea and Vietnam had nothing to do with religion? The US added god to the pledge of allegiance to further distance us from the 'godless' communists, for crying out loud.

Do I think that it lacked all religious concern? As it involved real people I cannot necessarily deny that some people were religiously motivated--I'm reminded of Saving Private Ryan where the cartographer says "If God be with us, who can stand against us". So, to answer your question--no. I feel confidant that religious communities rallied around the war. However, all of that is conjecture.

However, I think the question is missing my point, from the other thread. Notably, a more relavent way to phrase the question could have been "Joe, do you believe that Viet Nam and Korea were religious wars?"

No, I don't.

I believe (and I think I'm in good company with political scientists and historians on this one) that Viet Nam was a political war. An American show of force and activity in the global community, a political grudge against socialism dating back to Roosevelt (who said "The goal of the United States is to eliminate Communism in the Western Hemisphere" amongst other things), and a fear of small tyrranies in a nuclear age (that still exists).

Do I believe soldiers were out there killing because Vietnemese didn't worship Jesus Christ? No. I really don't. Such was my point all along.

 

[The Almighty]

Thou shalt not kill in my name

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by The Almighty
Thou shalt not kill in my name

Well, it translates more like "Thou shalt not kill someone who shouldn't be killed" or more simply "Thou shalt not murder".

For instance, the Hebrews killed a lot of peoples, lots and lots. But those weren't problems with the Commandments as that was "sanctioned". Killing was never against the rules, just killing without "permission".

Old Testament God was pretty black and white about stuff.

 

[ferociouskittycat]

 

[poohlive]

oh yes, I love the old testament. So much easier than the new testament. That's why I like the jewish religion so well, it just seems so much easier than Jesus and all of his mindless zombie religions that seem to suck the peronsality out of anyone who gets too close.
Mind you, that's not everyone, just a few white supremesists in Alabama who think they are better than everyone else.


Yet, despite the fact that Jesus himself seemed to be the one who advocated turn the other cheek (even though, Old Testament Black and White God didn't) it's been hundreds of wars and crusades that seemed to have gone on in his very name.
Sometimes, it's staggering to understand just why someone would kill all these people.... because they didn't believe in this, or they didn't pray this particular way.

I think part of the reason the U.S. is so easy to rally God behind everything we do (and inherently make God a part of our agenda) is because, politicians are trying so hard to appeal to the common man. It's not enough that we are fighting this group of strangers, but they are heathens... they don't even believe in our god. Look, they believe in some weird Voodoo curse, or whatnot.
So, it's natural that we'd need to kill them and sanction them, for their own safety. We're just doing the Lord's work... after all.

Sometimes it's sickening

 

[The Almighty]

"Old Testament God was pretty black and white about stuff."


Ya, well people can change.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by poohlive
oh yes, I love the old testament. So much easier than the new testament. That's why I like the jewish religion so well, it just seems so much easier than Jesus and all of his mindless zombie religions that seem to suck the peronsality out of anyone who gets too close.
Mind you, that's not everyone, just a few white supremesists in Alabama who think they are better than everyone else.

I would disagree that Christianity is a mindless zombie religion. As it would likely be quicker, I ask you why you think it is (rather than why I believe it may not be)?

Yet, despite the fact that Jesus himself seemed to be the one who advocated turn the other cheek (even though, Old Testament Black and White God didn't) it's been hundreds of wars and crusades that seemed to have gone on in his very name.

Could that not well be circumstantial... or, as another question, is it the fault of the religion that the religion's name is used? Are horrid acts committed in, say, your name directly related to your being horrid?

 

[poohlive]

Christianity isn't, in and of itself, a mindless zombie religion, but all too many practiitoners have taken it this way, that it seems hard to think of it as anything else. I think, in the perfect example, a person loves his god, his fellow man, and goes about his life as normal. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this.
But, then there are people, far too many to count, who say that Jesus hates gay people, or black people, or jews, because they don't believe in him, or because they aren't part of the master race... or sometimes just because they are just different.
It's the aged old battle, one in which every single war has been fought under:

One side says, "This is what I think."
The other side says, "Well, I disagree, this is what I think."
First side, "You're wrong, it's this."
Second, "No, you're wrong."
"Damnit, you are wrong. Where's my gun?"
"Get the army, we're going to war."

Of course, that's not the literal version of every single war, but you can boil it down to that very simple analogy in like 90 percent of the cases.
And, more often than not, it's religion that's the difference of opinion (or one of the differences) in the cases. And, it's people who are so involved in their religion they can't even see the other side that escalates these things far worse than what they should be.
Now, please, don't misunderstand me. I think, most of people who are christians, are quiet, laid back, nice enough people... but then there are those radical few...
Just like Muslims. You can't say the word Muslim without the phrase suicide bomber coming out right after it. And, you'd be right, but then, there are millions and millions of those, who embody their religion of non violence and care toward human kind.
I guess, you are right, I do pick on christians more than others... yet, I've never heard of people killing in the name of Bhudda, or Krishna, or Zeus, or in the name of their spirit god that watches over them.
Which segueways into the next part of your question right enough. Do we blame God for what his followers do, or just the followers themselves?
Well, I just see all of these deaths are needless... You are right to say more people have died in war in the last century than ever before, but some of the wars we fought now, were essential, were vital to the outcome of the human race. The wars before that? Crusades and everything, were pointless.
They killed thousands of people who were not christian, for what reason? Because Jerusalem is a holy city, and needs to be governed by good christian people... nothing else. Is that an excuse to slaughter thousands?
But, then again, the question... do we blame God? Certainly, his followers are to blame, but God himself? Well, I think maybe it's that we want to blame God. Why would God allow so many bad things to happen in his own name? Why would God allow his own reverands, his own Fathers who teach his word, touch little boys... Why would God allow that? Isn't there supposed to be some justice in the world?
If I were god, with all his power, and saw what was happening, wouldn't I stop it... Well, yes.
I mean, if someone were going around, killing people, raping people, robbing people, and telling everyone the, "hey, this other guy told me to do it. Yeah, I swear." The cops come to your house, and all of the sudden you're an accomplice. You'd want to clear the story, wouldn't you? Make sure people know this was the work of a madman, and not you're doing...

And, there's the question of free will, but to me, that seems almost useless. God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, he created the heavens and the earth.
Now, you are telling me, with a God, like that... if I decided to throw a pencil across the room, if that was my will, for the moment. God could not do a single thing to stop that pencil. He would have to let that pencil sail all the way across the room, and land on the ground, maybe tumble a few times, and then stop.
God, all the power in the universe, and he can't even stop a pencil...

Well, to me, that is a far scarier thought than God being dead... or God not existing. He's alive, he's here, he's with us, but he can't do a damned thing, cause there's free will. We're on our own.

I'll say it again, yes, i do pick on christianity, but it seems as if christians are the ones that do so much bad. The protestant church was created because a king wanted to divorce his wife... catholicism for hundreda of years milked the money out of the common man, telling them they better pay or they won't get into heaven. Rape, murder, (Hitler did what he did in the name of Jesus Christ) and more than one bad movie of the week... something I can't stand.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I am intensely grateful that you admit that you may pick on Christianity more than you ought. That's the most conversationally responsible thing I've heard all day. I agree with a lot of what you say (I disagree only with your terms like "most" and "90 percent" and "it seems like"... as these are conjecture and not evidence or proof; and its dangerous to blame things without such).

Like to say, I do agree with the essence of what you're saying. I think people ought to start blaming individual Christian persons and stop blaming Christianity. I believe blaming Christianity for things that righteous lunatics promote and preach makes Christians defensive--even if they don't agree with the lunatic. Its just natural.

Attack America, Americans might get defensive... Attack the servicemen and women at that prison for their actions, Americans are not threatened.

Christianity is just an idea, its some people that everyone talks about when they start bashing. But that's no different than blaming the entire American government for one sex scandal. No different than hating Wiccans because the crazy ones who threaten you with magic every other week.

I do recognize that Christianity is a big target... I just wish people would realize that the target is just a symbol, and its particular individuals that put that symbol on things to be shot at.

One last point, though, for fun...

God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, he created the heavens and the earth.

...there is nothing about the essence or definition of God that demands all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, or creation. A common misconception.

 

[The Mutt]

I'm curious. If God and Jesus are the same guy, then when God spoke from the heavens at Jesus' baptism and said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," wasn't that just a shameless bit of self-promotion?

 

[shereads]

I don't want to continue threadjacking, but I must ask you, Joe:

Do you really think that the US involvement in Korea and Vietnam had nothing to do with religion? The US added god to the pledge of allegiance to further distance us from the 'godless' communists, for crying out loud.

I thought this was supposed to be a pointless argument.

This isn't the Argument Clinic at all! It's Being Hit On The Head Lessons.



http://www.duke.edu/~pms5/humor/argument.html

 

[Just-Legal]

*Snip*
(Hitler did what he did in the name of Jesus Christ)
*snip*

And Christ was a Jew...

You'd think someone would have pointed that out to Adolph don't you...

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Pointless argumentative thread alert

This isn't the Argument Clinic at all! It's Being Hit On The Head Lessons.

Now that's comic irony.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

Old Testament God was pretty black and white about stuff.

Did he change? Or did we change our minds about him?

 

[shereads]

I don't want to continue threadjacking,

Min, if you meant the God/Squash/Bug thread, I think we had pretty much exhausted squashing and bugs and were left with God.



For future reference, any thread of mine is a thread of yours.

Now go, and sin no more.

 

[minsue]

Wow. It always amazes me in cases such as this: I start a pointless thread & then go to bed. I get back online hours later and it's still there!

Joe, I respect you and thank you for explaining yourself, but the reason any argument regarding religion will always be pointless for me is that there is an all-encompassing divide here: Not only do I not believe in god, but I am honestly and deeply mystified by (and more than a little frightened by, when you get right down to it) those who do. I really was just curious about your answer, so thank you.

 

[minsue]

Re: Re: Pointless argumentative thread alert

Now go, and sin no more.

 

[Liar]

I'm curious. If God and Jesus are the same guy, then when God spoke from the heavens at Jesus' baptism and said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," wasn't that just a shameless bit of self-promotion?

At least it was ventroquilism at it's very best.

 

[shereads]

Wow. It always amazes me in cases such as this: I start a pointless thread & then go to bed. I get back online hours later and it's still there!

Joe, I respect you and thank you for explaining yourself, but the reason any argument regarding religion will always be pointless for me is that there is an all-encompassing divide here: Not only do I not believe in god, but I am honestly and deeply mystified by (and more than a little frightened by, when you get right down to it) those who do. I really was just curious about your answer, so thank you.

What's really mystifying is how few of us hear trees talk.

 

[minsue]

At least it was ventroquilism at it's very best.

HERETIC!!!!

 

[The Mutt]

HERETIC!!!!

"Oh, me. Oh, me. Why have I forsaken myself?"

 

[Jagged]

In communism God is not part of anything nor is religion. The United States allows people to believe whatever they want long as they don't violate the rights of another.


Seems the believers don't want to be told what they can't and can do.......so it is about freedom to live the way we want not religion.


"Thou shalt not murder". is the orgin sand script translation. In Biblically time people knew that you had to protect the state and your way of life. Now we have evolved to the point where we allow ourselves to protect ourselves. Running around killing people that is wrong. Killing someone over a parking space is wrong...killing someone to protect another that is okay.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I can respect the notion that "I don't care about religious argument because I don't believe in religion", but only to a point. Its a lot like saying "I don't care about political argument because I don't believe in politics"...

...lack of belief in politics doesn't mean they don't affect you. The understanding of religion is essential to dealing with the 5.6 Billion religious people on the planet. A lack of understanding, of formal information and even debate, is a breeding ground for misconceptions and possible biases.

I can respect a willful decision not to care, but I think apathy in the matter does more harm than good in society.

orgin sand script translation

...you're not serious...

...are you?

 

[minsue]

I can respect the notion that "I don't care about religious argument because I don't believe in religion", but only to a point. Its a lot like saying "I don't care about political argument because I don't believe in politics"...

...lack of belief in politics doesn't mean they don't affect you. The understanding of religion is essential to dealing with the 5.6 Billion religious people on the planet. A lack of understanding, of formal information and even debate, is a breeding ground for misconceptions and possible biases.

I can respect a willful decision not to care, but I think apathy in the matter does more harm than good in society.

It's not apathy, Joe. Believe me. Personally, I care very much about religion because the religious (once I would have referred only to zealots, but after the court cases regarding the Pledge of Allegiance and the unbelievable rage and hatred I witnessed spewing forth from people I once considered to be sane I've had to widen my scope a bit) have the power to have a very detrimental effect on my life if they decide to do so.

I've simply learned through hard experience that debating religion, while amusing at times, is a wholly unproductive exercise. Not so among those who believe, I assume, but for myself it's a bit like repeatedly knocking my head against a brick wall. I won't have a sudden epiphany and believe in one or more deities and I'm not quite arrogant enough to believe that my powers of persuasion will cause anyone to denounce their own.