Perversions, Perversions, Perversions...

[Djmac1031]

I never did that. I think I have consistently said that I write for multiple purposes. Not every story is written with the same goal in mind. I've been very transparent from the beginning that I wrote Late Night On The Loveseat With Mom in 2017 with the explicit goal of wanting to get the most views possible. And I accomplished exactly what I wanted to with that story, and to this day I'm glad I did.

But I also write weird, idiosyncratic stories with other more personal goals, and I get just as much satisfaction from those stories, too. I write plenty of stories knowing they're not likely to get high scores or views. Anybody who bothers to read my stories in toto can tell I'm not writing just for numbers--but I'm not indifferent to them, either.

I don't think it's a clear case of either/or, as some people seem to think. I think one can stay true to one's own artistic goals and achieve success in a "conventional" sense at Literotica.

It's like Paul McCartney wrote about "Silly Love Songs": "Some people want to fill the world with silly love songs. What's wrong with that, I'd like to know, 'cause here I go, again." I've enjoyed silly incest stories for over 20 years, and I like writing them. I never feel like I'm sacrificing my art, because it's part of my art.

As far as numbers are concerned, I DO think there is an overweening concern with getting high scores. I think it's silly, I think it creates a lot of foolish, unnecessary angst, and I think it influences people to make safe, misguided decisions about what to write and what not to write. Authors foolishly worry about negative reaction rather than focusing on positive reaction. There are all kinds of things that go into high scores that have nothing to do with quality. People pat themselves on the back because chapter 47 of a long-running series has a score of 4.85, and I look at the fact that attrition has winnowed their view numbers down to 1000 from a first chapter that had 20,000, and I think, "Do you not see what's happening?"

One of my goals is very number-oriented. I want to reach as many readers as possible who enjoy my stories. I'd rather have a story with a score of 4.45 and 100,000 views and 500 favorites than a story with a score of 4.85 and 5,000 views and 25 favorites. At the same time, I choose to write certain stories knowing they're probably not going to see 100,000 views in my lifetime.

We have a lot more in common with our approach than I realized.

I've written serious. I've written silly.

I've written sexy, romantic, soft core, hard core, and no core.

Some I've written specifically to draw a certain crowd.

Others I've written, sweated and bled over, knowing full well maybe 20 people tops would read it.

All stories serve their purpose.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I never did that.

Way back in the beginning you sorta kinda did, deliberately starting with your incest stories, to get quick traction. That's where the penguin bollocks came from, which you good naturedly went along with (unlike some who never saw the joke). You've subsequently broadened your stance and moved away from "it's all about maxing the reader count" and branched out to "writing what's fun" a whirl.

You've even acknowledged it here, saying one of your goals is very number oriented. You even gave me that challenge, remember? "Go on," you said, "think what it will do for your numbers." I never wrote that one, can't see that I ever will.

 

[Enigmatica91]

Speaking only for myself of course... I've been way, way closer to incest than i'm comfortable with. From non-blood relatives having been 'very' heavily rumoured to have been engaged in a mother-son relationship - willing or not, I've no idea - to having been in a position to be my own sister's first, had I chosen to manipulate the situation... It really wouldn't have taken much. Just the idea makes me want to internally run for the hills, but it easily could've happened.

I still write about it; not because it's something I'd want personally, but because beyond the obvious issues of manipulative relationships and inbreeding, I don't see any particular problem. Without that, you just have a couple who happen to be related. But in any case, very little of what I write has any correlation whatsoever with any real-life interests. Just have experiences relevant to some of the topics, and a very open mind.

That said, I grew up protecting the eldest of my sisters from our mother and everyone else, our relationship was extremely close for many years. It was that abuse and neglect that forced us to be so close in the first place; one time, another kid's parents tried to drag her off with fuck knows what intent after an argument, the only thing standing between her and them being the barely 10 year old and extremely aggressive me. To this day, I've no idea what they'd have done with her if they'd succeeded. Don't want to know. One incident of many, sadly.

I can understand that kind of relationship, without actually wanting it. That level of closeness makes for an easy story - or a very intense one, depending on how it's written.

Anything I write tends to have at least a tiny grain of reality buried within, from characters with the same kind of burden of responsibility, to what could have been in different circumstances; but with an amazing wife of my own, and the same sister having a daughter of her own able to grow up in innocence, without the stresses we had - I regret nothing.

Stories are exercises in mental exploration for me, and little else beyond; as fictional as the names we all hide behind.

 

[UnquietDreams]

See, here is how I look at the incest issue. I love a good horror movie. Evil Dead, Jaws, The Changeling, Brain-dead, Night of the Living Dead, The Thing, Alien -- I love them. Why? Because I know they are fake. No one dies, no one really gets hurt. But, for instance, I completely avoided the Jeffery Dahmer show on Netflix a couple of years ago, even when all my friends were talking about it. Why, again? Because I remember Dahmer, remember seeing him in the news when he was arrested. There are lists of his victims, and their families -- real people. Real horror. I grew up in the hunting ground of the Green River Killer, and Bundy. Real horrors I stay away from.

Fake incest is fine to me because it is fake. No one is related. No one is even step-related. But there is built in backstory, drama, and danger. Those will always be exciting. Real incest? Horrific. I have never had the slightest interest in any member of my family--more the opposite. And real people, trapped in real incestuous relationships, don't go home after the camera goes dark, or the pen gets put down. Not erotic at all -- horrific.

My first story here was an incest story. Not because that is my only interest, but because I built it around a shock value, within the story. It started with the idea of a guy who thinks he is getting blown by a neighbor girl while he is blindfolded, only to find it is his sister. That shock -- to him -- was what I started with. That single image of pulling off the blindfold and seeing what really was happening, along with flipping the script a bit with the younger sister tricking the older brother. Then I kind of fell in love with the characters, and that story blossomed into currently three others, with a massive follow-up I am still working on editing that has, at present, twenty chapters. And I am the first to admit that it is pretty self-indulgent, but I indulge here. It's why I am here. But what kept me writing it was knowing how it would end -- a big chunk is dealing with some of the ramifications of the incest on the characters, long term. But to get that payoff, I felt I needed the rest of it.

But as I told my very patient editor, I am done with incest stories after this. I have three other stories I am working on, none of which have a family member as far as the eye can see. Heck, one has even less sex than my Valentine's Day story did, and I wrote that one specifically to avoid elaborate sex scenes. Because even as I indulge, I also need to grow.

 

[lovecraft68]

I never did that. I think I have consistently said that I write for multiple purposes. Not every story is written with the same goal in mind. I've been very transparent from the beginning that I wrote Late Night On The Loveseat With Mom in 2017 with the explicit goal of wanting to get the most views possible. And I accomplished exactly what I wanted to with that story, and to this day I'm glad I did.

But I also write weird, idiosyncratic stories with other more personal goals, and I get just as much satisfaction from those stories, too. I write plenty of stories knowing they're not likely to get high scores or views. Anybody who bothers to read my stories in toto can tell I'm not writing just for numbers--but I'm not indifferent to them, either.

I don't think it's a clear case of either/or, as some people seem to think. I think one can stay true to one's own artistic goals and achieve success in a "conventional" sense at Literotica.

It's like Paul McCartney wrote about "Silly Love Songs": "Some people want to fill the world with silly love songs. What's wrong with that, I'd like to know, 'cause here I go, again." I've enjoyed silly incest stories for over 20 years, and I like writing them. I never feel like I'm sacrificing my art, because it's part of my art.

As far as numbers are concerned, I DO think there is an overweening concern with getting high scores. I think it's silly, I think it creates a lot of foolish, unnecessary angst, and I think it influences people to make safe, misguided decisions about what to write and what not to write. Authors foolishly worry about negative reaction rather than focusing on positive reaction. There are all kinds of things that go into high scores that have nothing to do with quality. People pat themselves on the back because chapter 47 of a long-running series has a score of 4.85, and I look at the fact that attrition has winnowed their view numbers down to 1000 from a first chapter that had 20,000, and I think, "Do you not see what's happening?"

One of my goals is very number-oriented. I want to reach as many readers as possible who enjoy my stories. I'd rather have a story with a score of 4.45 and 100,000 views and 500 favorites than a story with a score of 4.85 and 5,000 views and 25 favorites. At the same time, I choose to write certain stories knowing they're probably not going to see 100,000 views in my lifetime.

Can you two take your little spat to PM instead of clogging up the thread with your bickering?

 

[AlinaX]

Would it help if I told you that they were brothers, and this is all foreplay?

 

[lovecraft68]

Up to now I've resisted getting involved in this because my general feeling here-and any form of social media-is people have their minds made up, and nothing anyone says will change it. To quote Swayze in Roadhouse, no one ever wins a fight.

But there are some newer folks around the AH these days, and maybe they're receptive to what others have to say rather than being so entrenched in their feelings on the topic they talk and don't listen. If you're not familiar with me I have done very well in my time on Lit in general, but especially in the I/T genre. I have the kink on a personal level (in fantasy, not the reality) and first and foremost that helps. Whenever a topic interests or arouses you, that shows in your work and the readers can feel it. The taboo crowd can smell a stat hunting poser who has no feel for the story.

I don't fixate on my own work here like many others do. I answer questions based on my experience with readers, the categories, how the site runs, do and don't, etc...but am not one to post my links, talk endlessly about my own stories and try to get people to read them. Note I don't even have a link in my signature. But for this topic let me say this. My last four brother/sister stories have all placed in contests. I say this not as a brag, but more in the tone of, if you want to know what drives the category, I'm one of the people you would want to hear from.

I think what many people don't take into consideration with I/T is its not just about forbidden lust.

It's about forbidden love.

If I say there is a sub genre of incest I call "Incest romance" you're first thought would be that sounds like an oxy moron, but it is what a large faction of that readership is looking for. The I/t readers, unlike what snobs like EB think, is not some group of mouth breathers who will consume anything if its family, it is not an easy category to write in unless you're going with a pure stroker. If you want "Mom's hot, why not, or hey, sis, mom's not home wanna have sex; then sure its easy....as easy as any other stroke story in any category.

Group...just add one more person

IR, make one person a different ethnicity.

BDSM, add some bondage and the word sir or mistress,

And so on down the line. Those categories all have far more meaningful stories than the simplest tropes to it, and...so does Taboo. Many readers want a slow burn, they want conflict, they want the family member to be troubled by their desire, they want a damn story. Stroke incest will get good numbers but lower scores. You create actual characters in plausible (as plausible as the category can be) tell a real story about people you get the reader to care about, then deliver that crossing the line "so wrong, but so right." scene? Your numbers and score will exceed the stroke.

I can go on, but instead I'll do something I don't often do and plug a couple of links. The first is a how to I wrote on I/T about 10 years ago. I'd say most if it still holds up.

https://literotica.com/s/write-incest-like-a-mother-fucker

This link is to a mother son story that really play up the conflict using some author friendly "coincidence" and a situation that puts the mother and son in a position where it happened, and now what do we do? Something not many stories deal with.

https://literotica.com/s/mom-that-was-you

Its 12 pages long, but that's due to needing the opening build up and the conflict. I'm not looking for a vote or comment, it has plenty. I'm linking this for anyone interested in seeing an example of what I'm talking about as far as what really drives the genre, and I would dare anyone to say coming up with this material is "low hanging fruit." Because trust me, its not, and although I'm a zero fucks given sort, it does get tiring to see IT authors and the readers denigrated by arrogant writers who think big numbers here mean you're a pandering hack.

 

[lovecraft68]

Would it help if I told you that they were brothers, and this is all foreplay?

I'd feel bad for Simon if that were true.

 

[Tom599]

My personal tastes are entirely vanilla: just me and my redhead, that's all I want. But it doesn't make for very interesting stories.

I wrote a brother/sister story to tap into the I/T readership. It was quite a success (among the most read stories over the past 12 months), but I felt like a bit of a sell-out. Even so, I wrote a follow-up for the Winter Holiday contest, and by then I'd become intrigued by Sal, the sister character. Right now I'm working on a fifth instalment, and the whole incest thing has faded to be background for me. It's all about Sal.

I have a creepy obsessive voyeur story. Not saying I don't like watching, but not as obsessively as the narrator in that story.

I also wrote a mother/child story as a 2P POV challenge to myself. Not because of the fetish, but because the story needed a topic with a "forbidden" aspect.

Another story that I wrote in 1P present tense needed a twist to raise the story to the next level, so I introduced a trans woman. Again, it was a case of the medium requiring something more than straightforward sex. Also, even if it's not my "thing", I still think it's a totally hot story.

So if I have an intelligent thought on the matter, it's that different themes (to avoid using the word "kink") let me do things as a writer that I couldn't do if I limited myself to my own personal sexual preferences.

Love to read your stories please

 

[StillStunned]

Love to read your stories please

Here you go: https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=7197020&page=submissions

 

[SimonDoom]

Way back in the beginning you sorta kinda did, deliberately starting with your incest stories, to get quick traction. That's where the penguin bollocks came from, which you good naturedly went along with (unlike some who never saw the joke). You've subsequently broadened your stance and moved away from "it's all about maxing the reader count" and branched out to "writing what's fun" a whirl.

You've even acknowledged it here, saying one of your goals is very number oriented. You even gave me that challenge, remember? "Go on," you said, "think what it will do for your numbers." I never wrote that one, can't see that I ever will.

I don't want to get into a tit for tat because we've always kept this light-hearted and not taken it too seriously, but I don't think you are accurately representing my position, then or now. I've NEVER said or implied "it's ALL about maxing the reader count." That's a misrepresentation. My philosophy for writing has always remained pretty much the same, although it's possible I've honed and altered the way I express it over time, because early on I didn't have much of an articulate philosophy about it at all.

I've NEVER been obsessed with numbers as a primary goal, in terms of the visible numbers that Literotica generates and gives us to see how our stories are doing. Numbers are at best rough proxies for success--but they are, in varying ways, useful proxies, so I reject the "numbers don't mean anything" position as much as I reject the "numbers mean everything" position.

I like knowing I'm reaching an audience. So did Shakespeare, Dickens, and Twain. There's nothing inconsistent about having this goal and wanting to fulfill one's artistic goals.

I have eclectic tastes and purposes with my stories. Anybody who bothers to read them can see that. Two of the story subsets I happen to enjoy a lot--incest stories and hot/exhibitionist wife stories--happen to be very popular, so it's easier for me than some to write stories that dovetail with my personal tastes while also being popular. Many incest stories, including some of mine, are somewhat silly, but I think silly stories can be good art, so I can play along with the silliness while remaining confident I'm staying true to my own personal artistic vision. I've never felt there's any conflict.