Patriotism

[elsol]

America is caught in a trap. Most great nations snare themselves.

Nations ensnare themslves when they destroy their peasants. America destroyed its peasants in 1965 with the Great Society social programs.

I vote for old white men to take up the mantle of necessary peasantry.

Think of it as your patriotic duty.

 

[rgraham666]

Do you have to ask?

I'm never anything but polite.

 

[sethp]

At some point, a person has to decide what constitutes a nation. To define, in short, what it indicates when one says, "I am Turkish" or "I am American." Our own American persons whom we refer to for our nation's essence define us as participants in the Republic. Atatürk defined Turks as those born in Turkey. Hitler and Goebbels referred to blood, to a national race. But modern Germans place more emphasis on the cultural unity. France is la patrie, and the Frenchman goes to war for it, but his loyalty is not to so large an entity, but to son pays, which is a particular part of Bayonne, or a swath of Alsace, his own particular home.

One's loyalty to the national idea need not blind one to reality. Nationalism is actually a palpable evil.

When I was younger, I went to the line for abstractions like civil rights and liberty, but now I only go to the line for a few people, friends and some family, people I love.

In the end, I have the liberty I take: I can decide to be a free person, and live like one. Sheep don't even want liberty, however much they prate of it, and my death on behalf of it would not inspire them to want it or value it.

I think those things important, and spend many hours persuading people to respect and honor them. I write on behalf of Amnesty and correspond on behalf of ACLU; I address letters to politicians and op-ed pages, I comment here and in blogs, I speak at governmental meetings, demos, and informally to people I meet. Citizenship, human rights, and liberty are, to me, the meat of the egg. They frame and shape the right way to live life.

Our founding American persons, during the Enlightenment, held similar views, and so, insofar as an American civilization exists, I am espousing its essence as I speak and write. Some of the answers to Zoot's question, in this thread, would imply that I am thereby a patriot.

But I do not join the military forces of our nation. Their motivation in joining, at least, that of the servicemen I personally know, is generally a sacrifice on behalf of the national idea. Once they make that commitment, our venal governments send them forth for other causes, mostly aggrandizement. Precious little promotion of our national ideas or purposes is involved.

Their sacrifice is debased and they are put to base use. It's nearly inevitable, since the only thing weaponry can accomplish is to kill and to wreck things. How much citizenship and liberty can be created by ordnance? How much can a missile, a shell, or a spray of bullets promote civil rights? Only if weaponry were used to defend civil liberties and human rights from some force which would extinguish them can weaponry impact them. Securing oil from someone by wrecking their liberty and bringing them to ruin is not the same thing.

Sometimes, the largest threats to those American ideas are the commanders of our army and navy themselves. Rummy never lifted a finger to secure liberty for anyone, but he sent people to die all the same. Cheney promoted the deaths of hundreds of thousands but he clearly sets little store by citizenship. He made a lot of money, though, for certain people.

The sacrifice of those troops was on the wrong altar. But, again, going by the ones I know, it was a noble impulse in its origin and the venal uses to which it is put cannot sully it, only waste and mock it. I admire my military friends' sacrifice, but I think they made an error.

Nevertheless, I have taken actions designed to promote the welfare of injured veterans, even as their commanders campaign to undermine it.

But I don't much covet the label "patriot," it is too blown upon. It's the rights of man which concern me, not patriotism, so I don't think I really can ever be one.

A good example is the reply, here in the thread, that the actions of emergency services in New York (only in 2001, of course) was patriotism. Completely off the mark, as I see it, and I spent twenty years in the fire service. Nobody seems to have an idea in the world what that word means. You can't turn around without discovering some new, cockamamie claim about what a patriot might be. I forswear it, myself, until some sort of consensus arise as to its meaning.

Hey..not to hijack your thread or post...well ok i did mean to do that. did you say you just drove out to pineridge?

 

[colddiesel]

During a recent visit to the land of my ancestors, Scotland, I came across a few very old words that gave me pause. Though they preceded our Declaration of Independence by 456 years, and come from three thousand miles away, I can hardly think of anything ever written here that more powerfully stirs in me the patriotism I’ve defined above. In 1320, in an effort to explain why they had spent the previous thirty years in bloody battle to expel the invading English, Scottish leaders ended their Declaration of Arbroath with this line: “It is not for honor or glory or wealth that we fight, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.”

Roxanne, the flaw with this is that this declaration is not about patriotism. Nationalism on which modern ideas of patriotism is founded didn't exist in 1320. The freedom these particular people were talking about was the 'freedom' to belong to a family, a clan, a local laird, the kind of loyalty concepts which predated feudalism. From time immemorial all societies have had systems of 'loyalty' which hold them together.With the development of the nation state in the past few hundred years this has become patriotism a slightly unreasoned(not unreasonable note) attachment to a national ethos.

As societies change there is every reason to think that the nature of societies' loyalties will change too. Difficult to imagine perhaps but if for any reason nation states become less functional the loyalty imperative will be directed in some new way.

I have talked this over with a friend who was born and educated in America but like 200000 other Americans has taken Australian citizenship. At a personal level he doesn't feel any less American but he also feels distinctly Australian. Ok many of these two nations ideals are similar and the areas of conflict are small but these small changes in the national outlook will effect a persons patriotism and certainly the next generations.

Patriotism is an ideal about constancy to one's nation state which but one which constantly changes.

 

[shereads]

It's back to back with jingoism, just depends on which way you're facing.

Here in my home-land (Not Britain, not England) we don't describe ourselves as people from, or of we just are: Yorkshire.

"Are you English?"

"No. I'm Yorkshire."

There's no patriotism there, there's no 'nationalistic' pride or holier than thou outlook we just are what we are.

Some people from Lesbos are suing a Greek gay rights organization to end what they consider an improper use of the word Lesbian.

A man can't say "I'm Lesbian" anymore without someone snickering. You are fortunate that this hasn't happened to Yorkshire.

[/threadjack]

I'm already on record as agreeing with Einstein on this topic. Of course, Einstein was no James B. Johnson, but he had some smarts. He wrote,

"Patriotism is a childhood illness; the measles of mankind." (This is your cue, if you are a true American patriot, to call Einstein some names, and suggest that if he doesn't love America, he should try living in Iraq.)

I love my country, in the sense that it's generally a good place to live, more for some of us than others; and my family has roots here; and it has some gorgeous scenery. Am I 'proud?' Well, yes and no. Grateful is more like it. I didn't accomplish anything by being born here and accepting the benefits. Pride is supposed to be for one's accomplishments, no?

When we do the right thing as a nation, I'm glad. When we do the wrong thing, I'm sad. When we do the wrong thing and refuse to acknowledge that we're wrong, or when we claim to be a 'moral authority' whatever that is, or when we rally behind symbols rather than the ideals they're supposed to stand for (like the ever-looming anti-flag-burning amendment, which is so ironic it's almost not), I feel angry and ashamed.

Patriots call the recognition of American wrongs "America bashing." I call it conscience.

For what it's worth, I don't feel invested the same way in the state of Florida, or in the southeastern United States, or in the North American continent, or in the Western Hemisphere. So I guess I must have some nationalism in me...But I don't cheer when the U.S. Men's Basketball team beats the daylights out of Northern Yasmakistan in the Olympics. I feel embarrassed.

 

[jomar]

Nicely put, She.

 

[shereads]

Nicely put, She.

Why, thank you. Is that your opinion as a Lesbian or a Yorkie?

 

[Belegon]

Patriots call the recognition of American wrongs "America bashing." I call it conscience.

My submission to you is that those people are no more "patriots" than people like Pat Robertson are really "Christians."

Simply because someone appropriates the name does not mean they are deserving of it.

 

[CharleyH]

What the hell is polite cunnilingus?

"Excuse me, madam, may I nibble your clit?"

That would probably work better than what's your sign.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't understand patriotism. Just what is it you're supposed to love? The people of your country? The principles your country's founded on? (Like Habeus Corpus and freedom and justice for all in the US.) What your leader commands? Are you just supposed to think you're always better than everyone else? Is it just a form of nationalistic jingoism? How does it work exactly?

In semantics, they have what's called a "prototype" for abstract words. It's the general image one thinks of when presented with an abstract concept, like "motherhood" makes one picture a woman holding a newborn or "courage" makes one think of a soldier charging through a hail of bullets. What's the prototype for "country"? The flag? Is patriotism loving that piece of cloth? That seems kind of dumb.

When I think of "country" I think of a diner on a highway in the Midwest. I like diners and highways in America, but that doesn't help me understand "patriotism".

Here's the deal Doc. You love your country. You're a German in 1936. You like the concept that the Nazis put forth, especially after WWI - blame the Jews. Well, the Jews aren't "really" German, so who cares if in 1943 you end up farming them to death? As far as you know they are bankers and con artists. How different is this from what happens now, when as far as you know, Islam is a bunch of oil barons all for killing and blowing shit up?

 

[Belegon]

Here's the deal Doc. You love your country. You're a German in 1936. You like the concept that the Nazis put forth, especially after WWI - blame the Jews. Well, the Jews aren't "really" German, so who cares if in 1943 you end up farming them to death? As far as you know they are bankers and con artists. How different is this from what happens now, when as far as you know, Islam is a bunch of oil barons all for killing and blowing shit up?

Why? What is the recent fascination from you with saying things for no reason other than to piss people off?

 

[Guest]

Why? What is the recent fascination from you with saying things for no reason other than to piss people off?

Agreed.

Damn, Charley. That's just - flaming angry shit.

 

[shereads]

Why? What is the recent fascination from you with saying things for no reason other than to piss people off?

That's a harsh assumption. I read the anger in Charley's post, but it didn't seem targeted at anyone here. And I get the correlation.

I interpreted the post as an illustration of a valid premise: that nationalism, like any other strong tribal identification, can be a tool of hatred and oppression.

Maybe I "got" it because I was thinking, earlier, about instances in which the patriots ( flag-bearers for the homeland) would not have been labeled as such if their cause had gone the other way. The American revolution, for one. To loyal supporters of the English throne, America's forefathers were criminals and terrorists; the good guys were the ones in the red-coated military-issue uniforms. Had they won, our history books would have said as much.

Every cause that rallies beneath a flag or behind a slogan needs an enemy. There can't be a united "us" without a "them." We have to dehumanize people to feel good about slaughtering them, whether it's with the anonymity of a missile strike, the sadism of death camps, or the shock-tactic of using hijacked aircraft as bombs.

 

[Belegon]

That's a harsh assumption. I read the anger in Charley's post, but it didn't seem targeted at anyone here. And I get the correlation.

I interpreted the post as an illustration of a valid premise: that nationalism, like any other strong tribal identification, can be a tool of hatred and oppression.
.

Sher, if it were a single post I would feel I had over-reacted. But there has been a pattern lately.

 

[WRJames]

The basic problem of patriotism is that it implies a notion of "us" as opposed to those "others"

All too often, that allows "us" to do forbidden things to the "others" -- rape, torture, muder, enslavement -- because those others are not afforded the protections we afford ourselves

and it only takes a little encouragement to unleash that horror -- how much "ethnic cleansing" have we witnessed in the past few decades -- or purging of heretics, intellectuals, undesirables of every sort.

 

[patrick1]

Nobody's mention Dr J. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.'

I loathe patriotism, but I hate it when England lose at football.

All right, you Yanks (don't all patriots secretly call other countries names?), soccer.

To my surprise I thought Amicus's Whitmanesque excursion through the love of homeland was an eloquent expression of a certain patriotic feeling I'd like to feel, but don't.

But then, like Gauche, basically I'm Yorkshire, which is a feeling beyond country.

patrick

 

[amicus]

Patrick1....not to be argumentative in the least, (he says). but ole Walt Whitman being applied to the venerable Amicus, well, I dunno....

Seems to me, Ogg, included that Great Britain, the Empire, had more than its share of love of homeland for centuries. The career of Churchhill, from boyhood on, is surely the thing legends are made of, is it not?

And, "Never have so few...." is a phrase I will never forget concerning the Blitz of London during WW2.

I am a racist, without a doubt as I view the demeanor of English people and the low country Dutch and Swedes and others and see in them, yet today, the stature that once brought honor and prestige to those nations.

I have never had much truck with the 'Latin' heritage and that includes not just Spain, but France and Italy as well, with the contradiction being the Greeks, whom I disassociate from the Romance nations in general.

I do have a faint admiration of early Chinese culture and even some for the Egyptians during and before the time of Alexander and I am sure, were I to think more, would add a few others.

Everything is transitory in a long term view, I suppose, but this era in human history is dominated by the United States and when that throne was occupied by others, they no doubt had their detractors also.

For the past 150 years, it is difficult to insert any other culture into the position the United States occupies at this time, would you not agree?

Amicus...

 

[oggbashan]

Amicus,

Churchill's mother was American.

So is the mother of the new Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.

Churchill was made an honorary US citizen.

In the UK your country of birth is no obstacle to achieving any high office as long as you become British.

Senator McCain was born in what was then US territory. If he had moved to the UK he might have become our Prime Minister.

Our monarchs haven't been English since 1066. First they were Norman, then Welsh, then Dutch, then German. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh was born Greek.

The British Empire included many countries. Our "Patriotism" was a citizenship of the world. We might have accepted the US back if they wanted to join.

Our values are similar to those of the US but we don't see ourselves as exclusive possessors of parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech or the rule of law.

When in the 1930s the Oxford Union debated whether they would fight for their country the arguments were about unthinking patriotism or adherence to ideals that other countries shared. The US joined World War II when it was attacked by Japan. The UK declared war on Germany because of their invasion of Poland. We joined World War I because of German invasion of Belgium. In both cases we were honouring treaties made with allies.

Patriotism might have persuaded men to enlist to fight Germany. We didn't go to war for patriotism but to honour our treaty obligations.

Og

 

[shereads]

Amicus,

Churchill's mother was American.

So is the mother of the new Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.

Churchill was made an honorary US citizen.

In the UK your country of birth is no obstacle to achieving any high office as long as you become British.

Senator McCain was born in what was then US territory. If he had moved to the UK he might have become our Prime Minister.

Our monarchs haven't been English since 1066. First they were Norman, then Welsh, then Dutch, then German. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh was born Greek.

The British Empire included many countries. Our "Patriotism" was a citizenship of the world. We might have accepted the US back if they wanted to join.

Our values are similar to those of the US but we don't see ourselves as exclusive possessors of parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech or the rule of law.

When in the 1930s the Oxford Union debated whether they would fight for their country the arguments were about unthinking patriotism or adherence to ideals that other countries shared. The US joined World War II when it was attacked by Japan. The UK declared war on Germany because of their invasion of Poland. We joined World War I because of German invasion of Belgium. In both cases we were honouring treaties made with allies.

Patriotism might have persuaded men to enlist to fight Germany. We didn't go to war for patriotism but to honour our treaty obligations.

Og

You're always a breath of fresh air, Og.

 

[shereads]

"In the United States, patriotism has become a favorite device of persons with something to sell."

H. L. MENCKEN

 

[fifty5]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel": Samuel Johnson

Things are either right or wrong (or trivial) and the beliefs of one's government - or fellow-countrymen - doesn't change that one iota.

"My country, right or wrong" is just wrong!