Patriotism

[DeeZire]

Martin Luther King was a patriot - giving his life for an ideal that was supposed to embody America. Rev. Wright has patriotic leanings, but it appears his ego outweighs his judgement. GW Bush is an anti-patriot, making a laughingstock of American values, and waving the flag while doing so. Likewise Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the whole neoconservative crew.

Between McCain and Obama, who wins the patriotism prize? Some will give McCain the nod, because of his service record. However, Obama passed on a lucrative career as a corporate lawyer in favor of working with the poor in Chicago. Which of these two actions defines patriotism? If you consider McCain's Keating Five scandal, and the more recent deal with McCain and Arizona land developer Don Diamond, I would say McCain loses this one by proving (over and over) he's just another scumbag, putting his own self-interest above the greater good of the country. (Unless being a POW for five years gives one a free pass to screw your country for the rest of your life.)

Could Patriotism have something to do with integrity? In my mind, it does.

 

[Belegon]

Martin Luther King was a patriot - giving his life for an ideal that was supposed to embody America. Rev. Wright has patriotic leanings, but it appears his ego outweighs his judgement. GW Bush is an anti-patriot, making a laughingstock of American values, and waving the flag while doing so. Likewise Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the whole neoconservative crew.

Between McCain and Obama, who wins the patriotism prize? Some will give McCain the nod, because of his service record. However, Obama passed on a lucrative career as a corporate lawyer in favor of working with the poor in Chicago. Which of these two actions defines patriotism? If you consider McCain's Keating Five scandal, and the more recent deal with McCain and Arizona land developer Don Diamond, I would say McCain loses this one by proving (over and over) he's just another scumbag, putting his own self-interest above the greater good of the country. (Unless being a POW for five years gives one a free pass to screw your country for the rest of your life.)

Could Patriotism have something to do with integrity? In my mind, it does.

I'm not willing to criticize John McCain as unpatriotic. Obama himself points out that McCain is not W.

However, I agree with your assessment of Barack's actions. Obama and McCain share something in that both of them have experienced environments that make them appreciate what America has to offer. McCain in war, Obama in childhood and in search of his father's legacy.

 

[amicus]

Wikipedia:

"...Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland' (Latin patria < Greek patris, πατρίς), by individuals and groups. The 'fatherland' (or 'motherland') can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation. Patriotism is closely associated with nationalism, and the terms are often used synonymously. Strictly speaking, nationalism is an ideology - but it often promotes patriotic attitudes as desirable and appropriate. (Both nationalist political movements, and patriotic expression, may, yet need not, be negative towards other people's 'fatherland').

Patriotism has ethical connotations: it implies that the 'fatherland' (however defined) is a moral standard or moral value in itself. The expression my country right or wrong—perhaps a misquotation of the American naval officer Stephen Decatur, but also attributed to Carl Schurz—is the extreme form of this belief. Patriotism also implies that the individual should place the interests of the nation above their personal and group interests. In wartime, the sacrifice may extend to their own life. Death in battle for the fatherland is the archetype of extreme patriotism...."

~~~

The United States of America. Amerigo Vespucci gave us our name, so they say.

They say the Vikings visited North America long before Columbus was given credit.

Cloudy says her people were here long before.

More recent theories say the Europeans followed the edges of an ice age glacier from somewhere near Spain to the North American Continent, perhaps before Cloudy's came across the Bering land Bridge. But then in Tierra del Fuego at the bottom of South America comes evidence that other sea people may have visited early on also.

They say that all of Europe and Asia was explored and settled long before the America's were, with humanity's cradle being Africa.

By that, I begin to make my case that America is unique among all nations of
the world simply by its' isolation from the earliest gatherings of humankind.

All the European explorer nations played a role in the early exploration and colonization of the Americas and its native population, to include Cloudy yet again.

When the dust settled and the cannons quieted. a nation was born, and soon stretched ocean to ocean, sea to shining sea based on those unique and special documents we still pay homage to.

A new style of nationhood, first of its kind in the history of the world, one without allegiance to God or King, but to the people, of the people, by and for the people.

I watched a documentary a few days ago about the Sumatran Tsunami of a few years ago. In the coverage was a young British woman who's bearing struck me as Regal, for lack of a better world. In her courage and demeanor, having survived the tragedy, she had a look of integrity and worth and value that seemed like 'coming home' to me, I understood her eyes, her carriage, her dignity in the face of disaster.

I thought what grand roots we Americans have, coming from such stock.

America is a land of immigrants, even Cloudy and her crowd came from somewhere else. Every nation on earth, every ethnic group resides within our borders protected by our basic documents, their freedoms guaranteed for as long as the nation survives.

I have traveled this nation, east to west, north to south, sea to sea, border to border and seen wondrous things. It is a huge and diverse nation with surprises of every kind at every turn.

It is my nation, it is my country and I have great pride in being born here and being an American.

This great 'melting pot' of many cultures has earned my respect and my loyalty for all the reasons mentioned in the definition of the word, Patriotism.

Had I not been born here a native son, I would have found my way here, never to leave.

Amicus...

 

[S-Des]

Well, how about being ashamed of what the US did during Iran/Contra? If you don't remember or never knew, we sold arms to both sides in a war of extermination between Iran and Iraq, and used th profits to fund a counter inusrgency against a populist movement in Nicaragua. It's little wonder we are hated.

And what about our blind support for state terrorism by Israel? Are you proud of that?

Or the fact that the Is stands shoulder to shoulder with Iran and the Vatican in opposing women's rights in the UN? Does that make you burst with pride?

We are a nation of obese people driving gas guzzling SUVs to the Walmart to buy products that are the tribute sent to us by the rest of the world. Are you proud of that?

Yup. I love the fact that I live in a country where, when I disagree with the policies it's perpetuating, I have the right to express my displeasure and either try to change it, or can happily leave to somewhere that would make me happier. Works for me.

I love the last part of this. I never realized I was obese, drove an SUV, or that other nations sent me "tributes" via Walmart (I was always under the impression that they did it to improve their economy and provide support for their citizens).

 

[Guest]

We dissenters, this time out (or at least the past 8 years) have been made to feel very unpatriotic for disagreeing with the manner in which things have been done.

Just saying.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

A few words to the usual suspects about feelings.

Patriotism isnt a feeling. MAD, SAD, GLAD, AFRAID, HUNGRY, SLEEPY, HORNY are feelings.

Patriotism is a nominalization. It's a process.

 

[Guest]

A few words to the usual suspects about feelings.

Patriotism isnt a feeling. MAD, SAD, GLAD, AFRAID, HUNGRY, SLEEPY, HORNY are feelings.

This is the first time I've agreed with you about anything, you ridiculous ass.

Yes, it isn't a feeling. That's why we're taking action this election.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Since when is electing McCain action?

 

[Liar]

We dissenters, this time out (or at least the past 8 years) have been made to feel very unpatriotic for disagreeing with the manner in which things have been done.

Just saying.

Why do you hate America?

 

[WRJames]

Yup. I love the fact that I live in a country where, when I disagree with the policies it's perpetuating, I have the right to express my displeasure and either try to change it, or can happily leave to somewhere that would make me happier. Works for me).

Well, that is a good thing. A wonderful thing. Something that has been prtetty much trampled on lately. Remember all the anti-French uproar just before we went intoi Irag -- because the French dared to stand up to us and tell Bush he was full of shit? And the whole country went for it, lock, stock and barrel.

I love the last part of this. I never realized I was obese, drove an SUV, or that other nations sent me "tributes" via Walmart (I was always under the impression that they did it to improve their economy and provide support for their citizens).

I am not personally overweight either -- and I drive a Subaru (big enough to hold stuff, but you could put two of them inside an Escalade). I don't know where you live, but take a look around you the next time you go shopping -- are really hard look -- and tell me what you see.

As for stuff being sent as tribute -- of course that's an oversimplification -- but not by much. Exactly why the rest of the world is sending such much of its production and raw materials back to us at this point is, to me at least, something of a mystery. We are doing nothing to earn it. I imagine at some point there will be a major correction, and this country will have to figure out how to work for a living again.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

America is caught in a trap. Most great nations snare themselves.

Nations ensnare themslves when they destroy their peasants. America destroyed its peasants in 1965 with the Great Society social programs.

Before 1965 poor people had to work or survive by charity. The Great Society killed their motivation to work with disincentives like Medicaid, Food Stamps, WIC, Housing Assistance, Pell Grants, etc. When you have no ambition to begin with, and government ensures your basic needs, why get off your ass?

Advancements in technology increased production enough to keep us prosperous. But little has happened lately to increase production enough to pull the wagon. And the wagon is loaded with riders.

So we started using slaves from Mexico and China and India and Africa. We sent them all the tools they need to make our stuff. Plus they get to stay where they are (except for Mexicans) and we can swear there is no slavery or worker abuse in America.

We figured they'd do our work and spend their dollars on Britney Spears CDs or Hannah Montana DVDs and Social Security IOUs. It didnt work out that way. Theyre using their dollars to buy American oil (we produce oil) and American food. And now we're fucked.

 

[WRJames]

Why do you hate America?

There's no alternative between blind loyalty and hating the country? Anyone who dissents is a traitor?

America has done some very shameful things during the Cold War, and beyond. I mentioned Iran/Contra in a previous post. There was a war of terror that the US sponsored in South and Central America -- promoting right wing regimes that used rape and torture to supress the threat of Communism. The CIA backed coup in Chile is only the most blatant example of this.

Afghanistan is another, perhaps more ambiguous example. Just why was there an uprising against the Communist regime in Kabul? It was because they were promoting women's rights, women's education. The conservative mullahs rebelled, the Us gleefully backed that rebellion (and aided Bin Laden!).

In Iran, the US backed a cruel dictator (the Shah) -- we are still paying the price for that.

It would be difficult to overstate how much the Bush adminstration has obstrcucted the work of the UN.

Unfortunately, none of this gets much attention within the US -- most of the things I am saying here are probably very shocking to many of my fellow citizens. Events like 9/11 come as a complete shock -- and if someone dares to suggest that perhaps it is a reaction to our own evil actions in the world -- well, that person is a traitor.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You forget that the 9-11 deaths were all innocent people.

I never killed anyone before Vietnam. But on one occasion circumstances placed me in a spot where I needed to kill or be killed.

I reasoned it all out in my mind. The President and Congress and The People were total idiots, and my opponent likely didnt want to harm me any more than I wanted to hurt him. But we both wanted to live, and it boiled down to which of us was the quick or the dead.

I'll always remember the look on his face. Total surprise followed by impotent rage, then nothing.

 

[WRJames]

You forget that the 9-11 deaths were all innocent people.

Of course I'm not forgetting that. I live in a New York suburb. It was a horrible personal experience. The next day or so I was having dinner with someone who had left the second tower right after the first one was hit. One of my friend's daughters worked on the top floor of the first tower -- she was on a cell phone with her parents for an hour or so, trying to find a way down. I had friends who lost their jobs -- I had couple of projects of my own go down the tubes because we all just stopped doing anything, for a couple of months, we were in such shock.

It was probably in response to that tragedy that I became more aware of just who much outrage our country had provoked in the rest of the world -- the shameful things being done by our government, mostly in secret. Of course, all of that is becoming more visible now.

Soon after 9-11 we begain to bomb Afghanistan. In an effort to kill the leader of the Taliban, we bombed his house, killing the rest of this family -- innocent women and children. There was not even a hint of outrage in this country. Just this week, the Israelis dropped a bomb on a house, killing a mother and her four children, and the rest of the world yawned.

 

[Belegon]

There's no alternative between blind loyalty and hating the country? Anyone who dissents is a traitor?

He was using sarcasm, WR. That is exactly the point he was making, that the recent administration and mouthpieces from that part of the political spectrum use patriotism much the way someone would ask "How long have you been beating your wife?"

From JBJ or Amicus, that question might have been serious. From Liar, it is sarcasm. Check his history and get to know the players on the field.

 

[CharleyH]

I am a Canadian. As a Canadian patriot I am required to make fun of my lack of individualism under American scrutiny, and I am proud to be second, even if I have a bigger dick and more polite cunnilingus skills.

I don't understand patriotism. Just what is it you're supposed to love? The people of your country? The principles your country's founded on? (Like Habeus Corpus and freedom and justice for all in the US.) What your leader commands? Are you just supposed to think you're always better than everyone else? Is it just a form of nationalistic jingoism? How does it work exactly?

In semantics, they have what's called a "prototype" for abstract words. It's the general image one thinks of when presented with an abstract concept, like "motherhood" makes one picture a woman holding a newborn or "courage" makes one think of a soldier charging through a hail of bullets. What's the prototype for "country"? The flag? Is patriotism loving that piece of cloth? That seems kind of dumb.

When I think of "country" I think of a diner on a highway in the Midwest. I like diners and highways in America, but that doesn't help me understand "patriotism".

 

[Liar]

There's no alternative between blind loyalty and hating the country? Anyone who dissents is a traitor?

Apparently, I have to tag a a and a to every post that is not knock-me-dead serious.

Pardon.

 

[Liar]

and more polite cunnilingus skills.

What the hell is polite cunnilingus?

"Excuse me, madam, may I nibble your clit?"

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I find it rather hard to be patriotic (whatever that means) to a country that wouldn't even make us legal citizens until 1924, especially since we were here long before those that had the right to make us "citizens."

Since the United States is not my "homeland" and I could not be a citizen of my home until shortly after Bobby Sands died in 1985, I have to agree.

Franly, Patriotism and Heroism belong in the same "slop jar". Bloody words used by politician far behind the lines to justify the death those killed in the struggle.

Send Bush and Chaney to Iraq to fight an find out how really patriotic they are hiding under their rocks.

 

[WRJames]

Apparently, I have to tag a a and a to every post that is not knock-me-dead serious.

Pardon.

Well, I was suprised at that remark coming from you -- aren't you Swedish? But anyway, there are a enough folks who actually think(?) that way. Just look at how Obama has had to cover his ass to recover from some frank remarks by his wife and his pastor.

 

[HappyLlama]

I am a Canadian. As a Canadian patriot I am required to make fun of my lack of individualism under American scrutiny, and I am proud to be second, even if I have a bigger dick and more polite cunnilingus skills.

I think that puts Scotland first, Canada second and...

At least as far as dick size and cunnilingus skills.

 

[HappyLlama]

Oops.

I forgot who I am.

 

[Guest]

Why do you hate America?

BWAH!

 

[Guest]

What the hell is polite cunnilingus?

"Excuse me, madam, may I nibble your clit?"

Do you have to ask?

 

[Guest]

Well, I was suprised at that remark coming from you -- aren't you Swedish? But anyway, there are a enough folks who actually think(?) that way. Just look at how Obama has had to cover his ass to recover from some frank remarks by his wife and his pastor.

It's a joke, yes. Shereads and I have used that quite often in a sarcastic fashion. I'm just sorry I was at work all day and missed it until now!