Our Natural Evil nature

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Everybody says christianity is so cruel because it unfairly sends all those innocents and good people to hell.

I subject for your consideration that there isn't a good or innocent person amongst us.

I ask a question.

Who teches a child to lie, to deny, to remove themselves from responsibility for thier actions?

Nobody has to teach a child to lie, it is our natural reflex.

Nobody has to teach a child to do what they are told not to its a natural reflex.

Nobody has to teach a child what is bad it is a natural reflex.

Everybody has to be taught to tell the truth.

Everybody has to be taught to do what they are told.

Everybody has to be taught what is good.

Our human nature is tainted, it has been tainted from the beginning by the choice of one for all. Nothing we can do can untaint or clean ourselves.

anyways just got bored again.

Feel free to ignore like you generally do.

 

[Problem Child]

How did you get so mixed up?

All children come out of the womb as evil liars? What kind of mind-altering shit are you on today Todd?

Your world is fucked up. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

How did you get so mixed up?

All children come out of the womb as evil liars? What kind of mind-altering shit are you on today Todd?

Your world is fucked up. I feel sorry for you.

who teaches a kid to lie then?

why is the kids natural instinct to say "i didnt do it"?

 

[Problem Child]

who teaches a kid to lie then?

why is the kids natural instinct to say "i didnt do it"?

You need to go to your local JC and enroll in a human development class.

 

[phrodeau]

who teaches a kid to lie then?

why is the kids natural instinct to say "i didnt do it"?

Short answer: The church.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Short answer: The church.

Who teachs the athiest kids to do the same thing?

It is a normal and natural human response, regardless of gender color, country, religion regardless of anything.

 

[Shaq]

Might it be...

that it isn't our natural nature to lie but conditions which cause a child to want to do so? A child lies to avoid some sort of punishment not because of an intrinsic evil nature.

The entire point of heaven is that those who avoid the temptation to resort to lesser emotions like fear of punishment get rewarded...inherent evil to me is almost impossible when you think of what evil really is...

 

[Problem Child]

Who teachs the athiest kids to do the same thing?

It is a normal and natural human response, regardless of gender color, country, religion regardless of anything.

Quote a peer-reviewed scientific study from a reputable source vaildating your opinion and I will believe you.

This does not include the bible.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Quote a peer-reviewed scientific study from a reputable source vaildating your opinion and I will believe you.

This does not include the bible.

Watch TLC next Sunday and Saturday they are doing a 3 show special on it.

And I doubt there will be a single quote from the bible on it

 

[kamuikamui]

Who teachs the athiest kids to do the same thing?

I was an athiest kid. I didn't lie.

 

[Problem Child]

Watch TLC next Sunday and Saturday they are doing a 3 show special on it.

And I doubt there will be a single quote from the bible on it

Sure thing Todd.

I'll be waiting on the edge of my seat for them to announce that all children evil and have a natural propensity to lie from birth.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Again?

Who teaches a child to take a cookie when they are told no?

Who teaches the child to deny they took the cookie?

Who teaches the child to blame someone else for taking the cookie?

Nobody teaches these things to children, they are the natural rflex human reaction.

Who teaches a child to not lie?

Who teaches a child to not take the cookie?

Who teaches the child to accept responisbility for his/action?

We do we are all responscible to instill a "good", and "moral" nature to children.

 

[seXieleXie]

man todd, you really worry me sometimes

who decides that taking the cookie is "evil" ? who decides it is "wrong" ? the parent, the church, the society. not the child. i think you have to know what evil is before you can live it, ya know?

 

[Rhys]

Hamlet: "…there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

Act 2, Scene 2

 

[Problem Child]

Again?

Who teaches a child to take a cookie when they are told no?

Who teaches the child to deny they took the cookie?

Who teaches the child to blame someone else for taking the cookie?

Nobody teaches these things to children, they are the natural rflex human reaction.

Who teaches a child to not lie?

Who teaches a child to not take the cookie?

Who teaches the child to accept responisbility for his/action?

We do we are all responscible to instill a "good", and "moral" nature to children.

So Todd, do you really think children are born evil? That's strange. If that's true and you are saying that all children need to be taught to be good, then why do mass murderers come from upstanding cristian families? Your argument is that their environment shapes their behavior, but only from bad to good. Wouldn't it work the other way around? If all children are born evil, then how can children born into very bad families, families where the parents are on drugs and practice no good parenting skills become honest decent members of society?

You argument (it isn't really an argument, but we'll pretend it is for the moment) is based on the bible and original sin. Adam ate the apple, and so the rest of humanity is doomed forever to be evil and sinful. But it's a fallacious argument because besides requiring the proof of the existence of God, it requires human beings to have intrinsic value, and we don't. Humans can do good things, and have good lives, but a human being is not born good, or bad.

Original Sin

Original sin is the doctrine that man is born evil. The term comes from Christianity's belief that Adam, the first human created by their god, ate an apple from the tree of knowledge, and forever after, all humans have been born guilty of the crime that Adam committed. Original sin refers not just to this particular belief, but to all beliefs that man is born evil.

This belief is based on the fallacious view that value is intrinsic. It doesn't claim that man is capable of performing evil, or even that man can be evil. It insists that man is evil independent of his thoughts, actions, or person.

The claim is made without reason. It insists that evil can exist as a characteristic of an entity, without reference to a standard of value. Why is it evil? There is no reason. What is evil? There is no definition. It just is.

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.c...ortanceofphilosophy.com/Evil_OriginalSin.html[/URL]

Now, if you can prove to me there is original sin, you win the argument.

Stage 0: Egocentric judgement. The child makes judgements of good on the basis of what he likes and wants or what helps him, and bad on the basis of what he does not like or what hurts him. He has no concept of rules or of obligations to obey or conform independent of his wish.

Stage 1: The punishment and obedience orientation. The physical consequences of action determine its goodness or badness regardless of the human meaning or value of these consequences. Avoidance of punishment and unquestioning deference to power are values in their own right, not in terms of respect for an underlying moral order supported by punishment and authority (the latter is stage 4).

Stage 2: The instrumental relativist orientation. Right action consists of what instrumentally satisfies one's own needs and occasionally the needs of others. Human relations are viewed in terms such as those of the market place. Elements of fairness, reciprocity, and equal sharing are present, but they are always interpreted in a physical, pragmatic way. Reciprocity is a matter of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your", not loyalty, gratitude, or justice.

http://www.xenodochy.org/ex/lists/moraldev.html

Now, where in that description of the development of a child does it say that children are born evil?

Jean Piaget did the simple research years ago that demonstrated that children to not develop full logical and ethical cognition until the age of 14 yrs. Children are born with immature brains. They are not born evil. Treating children, from birth, as "spirits" with "free wills" who should be forced to obedience has the disastrous consequences you see all around you. This delusion becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Treat a child as if he's lazy and stupid and that's just what he'll become. The child's genetically-determined behavior is labelled "selfish" because it inconveniences the parents. The child's cries are considered "manipulation" and ignored. His needs, expressed by his cries, are denied. (Permit me to use one gender pronoun instead of two.) The child therefore is ignored and punished for reasons he cannot possibly understand. The anger and frustration the child feels, much of which is suppressed, makes him morose, stubborn, shy, aggressive, etc. The way the child responds to this neglect and abuse depends on his genetic personality traits and his particular interactions with his parents, but the results are tragic--anger, depression, acting out, self-destructive behaviors, self-mutilation, drug abuse, rebelliousness, hatred of learning, etc.

http://www.geocities.com/hlindner1/Writings/Childrearing.htm

Proclaiming children as intrinsically evil is a lie perpetrated by religion and used to keep people living in fear of a non-existent God, so that the power of the church can be perpetuated.

It's also used as a crutch for bad parents to excuse their poor parenting. Not all bad kids can be blamed on their parents, because the development of a child is influenced by their total environment, not just what their parents can affect. But, as you've shown, it's certainly easy for the church, and you, to explain away bad behavior based on the faulty premise that we are all "born bad", isn't it?

Now, why don't you show me some evidence for your side of the argument?

 

[Juspar Emvan]

who teaches a kid to lie then?

why is the kids natural instinct to say "i didnt do it"?

Because if they get caught they get punished? Sounds like a self preservation instinct to me.

 

[BustyTheClown]

Wow. Great post, PC.

 

[seXieleXie]

i wanna marry PC.

or at least fuck him a couple times and then watch bad tv in bed with him and make fun of it.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

I once believed and probably wouldn have posted the exact same info.

Secular Humanisn - religion - cult - chrsitianity - pschology - general observation

They will point to what ever we want them to point to.

Such as in politics one mans freedom fighter is anothers revolutionist, is anothers terrorist.

My post above it disagrees with christianity, christianity give s a leaniencysp} of an age of accountability. My post does not. My post is not a be all to end all. It is merely a list of general observations. I drew one conclusion for discussion out of a thousand that can be drawn.

Christianity is one of the few, well actually only faith based systems where mankind is responsible to anything.

Most every other base line of thought is "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes" thus if it isn't wrong to the individual it isn't wrong period. no equivelant cause to reaction.

and as you always ask me, show me in the bible where it says they ate an apple?

 

[Problem Child]

I once believed and probably wouldn have posted the exact same info.

Secular Humanisn - religion - cult - chrsitianity - pschology - general observation

They will point to what ever we want them to point to.

Such as in politics one mans freedom fighter is anothers revolutionist, is anothers terrorist.

My post above it disagrees with christianity, christianity give s a leaniencysp} of an age of accountability. My post does not. My post is not a be all to end all. It is merely a list of general observations. I drew one conclusion for discussion out of a thousand that can be drawn.

Christianity is one of the few, well actually only faith based systems where mankind is responsible to anything.

Most every other base line of thought is "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes" thus if it isn't wrong to the individual it isn't wrong period. no equivelant cause to reaction.

and as you always ask me, show me in the bible where it says they ate an apple?

Wow, great non-answer.

Perhaps Lexie or someone else would care to tell me what the fuck Todd just said?

 

[seXieleXie]

I once believed and probably wouldn have posted the exact same info.

Secular Humanisn - religion - cult - chrsitianity - pschology - general observation

They will point to what ever we want them to point to.

i'm glad you included christianity in that. so if christianity points to whatever man wants it to point to, how is it the one true way?

[edited by lexie for clarity!!]
My original post disagrees with christianity. christianity gives leaniency in the form of an age of accountability. My post does not. My post is not a be all to end all. It is merely a list of general observations. I drew one conclusion for discussion out of a thousand that can be drawn.

well i'm glad we agree that you basically pulled this theory out of your ass

Christianity is one of the few, well actually only faith based systems where mankind is responsible to anything.

Most every other base line of thought is "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes" thus if it isn't wrong to the individual it isn't wrong period. no equivelant cause to reaction.

buddhism requres people take responsibility for their actions. so does islam. most religions have a set of rights and wrongs, most religions do not allow moral subjectivity.

and as you always ask me, show me in the bible where it says they ate an apple?

they ate a fruit, it wasn't specified as an apple.

 

[alexandraaah]

Todd, you sound sad.

From your posts, it sounds like you feel let down by human nature. There's more good than evil, but you keep looking down the dark alleys then you seem shocked when a demon jumps out.

Look in a field of fucking lilies and you'll see flowers and sunshine.

Look in the shadows and you'll see demons lurking.

See it as you must right now, but it is a choice, hon.

As far as teaching children to lie? Well, we all do. It's everywhere and for the most part, the lies told are pretty benign. I'm not trying to oversimplify how pervasive the issues that face youth are today, but I get the feeling this is more about Todd O and less about society.

If you continue to seek universal truths of perfection and honesty, it's gonna be an exhausting and maddening trip. Start from the inside and work your way out. You've got your focus on a little backwards right now.

Go read The Diary of Anne Frank. She's got this great little line about believing that all people really are good. You might want to consider adopting this philosophy and see where it takes you. She was just a kid.

 

[miles]

So......

Wanna chat...huh, do ya do ya?

 

[cymbidia]

I didn't read this thread and i'm not going to.
I'm too tired tonight.

However, Todd, though you assert that there's no good or innocent person among us (and i can't imagine what those two have to do with each other in the first place), i cannot agree.

"Good" is a relative term, Todd. What you define as a "good person" may not have anything at all to do with my idea on who would qualify to be termed a "good person".

I, Todd, am a good person by my own reckoning, as are a bunch of people here at Lit.


To apologize for not reading your thread, i came bearing a gift for you. It's a quiz, one called What's Your Spiritual Type? and is located here: http://www.beliefnet.com/section/quiz/index.asp?sectionID=&surveyID=27

My answers put me into this group:
Spiritual Dabbler -- Open to spiritual matters but far from impressed.

(Such a characterization pretty much nailed me with respect to traditional spirituality, actually, and even moreso when i read the other choices.)

 

[paganangel]

Everybody says christianity is so cruel because it unfairly sends all those innocents and good people to hell.

I subject for your consideration that there isn't a good or innocent person amongst us.

I ask a question.

Who teches a child to lie, to deny, to remove themselves from responsibility for thier actions?

Nobody has to teach a child to lie, it is our natural reflex.

Nobody has to teach a child to do what they are told not to its a natural reflex.

Nobody has to teach a child what is bad it is a natural reflex.

Everybody has to be taught to tell the truth.

Everybody has to be taught to do what they are told.

Everybody has to be taught what is good.

Our human nature is tainted, it has been tainted from the beginning by the choice of one for all. Nothing we can do can untaint or clean ourselves.

anyways just got bored again.

Feel free to ignore like you generally do.

lying isn't bad. the truth isn't good.