Non-believers & their children

[TN_Vixen]

This isn't meant to be a thread that causes religious friction, just a simple question to those on the Board who are non-believers where Christianity is concerned.

That being said.. What would you tell your young children if they asked to be taken to church? Would you encourage their curiosity and take them... would you attend with them? Would you share with them your philosophy or allow them to develop their own religious opinions?

 

[*bratcat*]

personally...

 

[Xander]

Vixen. even though I myself is regarded as a non believer. I would take my kids to church if asked. I'd encourage them to make up their own minds about it.

It's not my or anybody elses place to decide what they should think about beliefs.
That's something that's, in the end, entirely up to them.

I would answer their questions to the best of my ability. I would tell them my points of view, if they want to know. And all that. But in the end, I'd encourage them to make up their own mind about their belief.

 

[Laurel]

I'd let them make their own decision. I'd discuss various belief systems with them, and allow them access to books on the subject from a variety of viewpoints. It's their life, after all. Spirituality is a personal matter - something that should be chosen by the child, not assumed to be automatically inherited, like eye or skin color.

A better question...how would theistic parents react to their children's wishes to be an atheist? From my experience, not very well.

 

[Nobody Special]

I'll make this short and Non attacting..

I would do pretty much the same as Xander, but I would also try to find the history of each religion that they are asking about.. and let them do the research as I have done and still doing.. I admit I don't know all of the religions but I do know the most cruelest and that is something that they will find in their search as well..

E

 

[TN_Vixen]

bratcat & Xander

although I didn't intend to have this thread take a personal turn, I will say this. I was brought up a Christian and was in church from a very young age. Even to this day I couldn't denounce my beliefs in Christianity. It is ingrained in me.

I quit going to church when I was in my early 20's... and although my spiritual connection hasn't waned, my physical presence in church has.

I'm for encouraging children to develop their own views just as Xander said. I feel that as parents we have an obligation not to force this specific type of morality upon our children... so I will encourage and attend and foster my child's inquisitive mind despite any belief I could have otherwise.

My question, bratcat, was directed more towards those parents who openly proclaim themselves to be non-Christian and how they'd react and adapt to their child's quest for religion.

 

[TN_Vixen]

Laurel, you're quite right

I'd let them make their own decision. I'd discuss various belief systems with them, and allow them access to books on the subject from a variety of viewpoints. It's their life, after all. Spirituality is a personal matter - something that should be chosen by the child, not assumed to be automatically inherited, like eye or skin color.

A better question...how would theistic parents react to their children's wishes to be an atheist? From my experience, not very well.

That is the better question. I remember when my older sister told me that her son (at the time he was 5) said to her... "Mommy, who's Jesus?" and she laughed about it. Of course at this time in my life I didn't have children and I was totally appalled by the fact that she hadn't even discussed God or Jesus or any spiritual things with him at this point in his life... and equally appalled that she found the whole scene funny. Turns out that my younger brother was sitting in on me and my sis's conversation and proceeded to proclaim his atheism.

I was speechless! And angry and tried to forcefully protest his position proclaiming disaster for him for all eternity if he did not acquire a change of heart. . Ok, I was young then, only 22... (still am dammitt.. 34 ain't old) and felt the weight of his confession on my shoulders. My older sister always went against the grain in our family so her statement didn't shock me as much as offend and shock like my little brother's did.

He still holds an agnostic belief which I consider a step up on the ladder. (smile)

 

[TN_Vixen]

and as for talking over the different religions

I'm against that initially. I didn't learn about the plethora of religious practices until in college and at that age I was able to soak in the scientific facts I was being presented with (i.e. geological finds and the different theories about the beginning of the universe) and compare them to the theologic facts I'd been taught since I was a child.

Developmentally, children are unable to think abstractly until a specific age and to understand WHY begs the question I initially presented. Should we go into so much detail at such a young age?

 

[Xander]

Vixen.
You know. I have absolutely no problem with, whatever belief system people choose to follow. Christianity or otherwise.

What I however do have a big problem with, is people looking at people with another belief, and call upon hell and brimstone upon them. And look down on them, because of their beliefs. And regarding them as "lesser humans" Can anybody say Sieg Heil??

After all. Every religion is build upon a myth. Which none of us have the slightest possibility to prove true or false.

 

[Laurel]

Re: Laurel, you're quite right

That is the better question. I remember when my older sister told me that her son (at the time he was 5) said to her... "Mommy, who's Jesus?" and she laughed about it. Of course at this time in my life I didn't have children and I was totally appalled by the fact that she hadn't even discussed God or Jesus or any spiritual things with him at this point in his life... and equally appalled that she found the whole scene funny. Turns out that my younger brother was sitting in on me and my sis's conversation and proceeded to proclaim his atheism.

I was speechless! And angry and tried to forcefully protest his position proclaiming disaster for him for all eternity if he did not acquire a change of heart. . Ok, I was young then, only 22... (still am dammitt.. 34 ain't old) and felt the weight of his confession on my shoulders. My older sister always went against the grain in our family so her statement didn't shock me as much as offend and shock like my little brother's did.

He still holds an agnostic belief which I consider a step up on the ladder. (smile)

I've never personally known an atheist parent who forced their views on their kids. The only atheist parents I know personally are a very loving couple who are believers in rational thinking. Whenever a child asks a question, they teach the child to reason the answer out themselves, using reason. When their 8-year-old asked about God and religion, they discussed Theism in general with the child - in a historical and scientific context - then sent him to the library. The kid - now 13 - has more knowledge on religion and spirituality than the majority of adults do (though adults have more practical experience - that's gained with age, usually). He's still working it all out, but when he finally decides what to believe, he will have done so based on knowledge, not by blindly accepting whatever was handed down to him.

I think this couple handled it perfectly. I've yet to see a theistic couple treat religion so openly. From what I've seen, when a child of Christian parents asks about God, the parents explain the Christian view of God and that's it. Muslim parents explain the Muslim view. And so on. Which isn't a bad thing, but it's not necessarily giving the child a whole lot of choice in the matter either. What's worse, when the child grows old enough to care about spirituality and decides to choose a non-Christian path - be it Judaism, Muslim, or even (gasp, shock) atheism - the parents are generally less than supportive.

I have my own views on the subject, and I'm not going to go into detail here because I get flamed enough on the political threads. I will say that I don't think any religion holds the monopoly on truth. I think spirituality is a very very personal matter - something that is no one's business but your own. So long as you're happy in your belief - whatever it is - I have no right to tell you you're wrong, and you have no right to tell me I'm wrong.

I get letters from time to time telling me I'm Going Straight to Hell for running this site, and it irks me. It's so rude. I would never think to go to any church's website and flame its members. I respect the right of others to believe what they wish, even if I don't agree with them at all. If I had one wish for humankind, it would be that we were all a little more tolerant of those different from us.

 

[TN_Vixen]

Xander

I think most [logical] people agree with your viewpoint. To pronounce your religious viewpoint as the end all be all is simply ludicrious. I don't appreciate people "witnessing" to me and don't appreciate people who feel the need to save my soul based upon their own principled value of what they believe to be right.



But bow down before idols and I'll kick your ass. hehe.. j/k... wasn't meant to come across as blasphemous people!

 

[Siren]

All I have to say is....

 

[Laurel]

Re: and as for talking over the different religions

I'm against that initially. I didn't learn about the plethora of religious practices until in college and at that age I was able to soak in the scientific facts I was being presented with (i.e. geological finds and the different theories about the beginning of the universe) and compare them to the theologic facts I'd been taught since I was a child.

Developmentally, children are unable to think abstractly until a specific age and to understand WHY begs the question I initially presented. Should we go into so much detail at such a young age?

By that argument, why take them to church at all, if they are unable to understand any of it? Why not wait until they are old enough to make their own decision?

 

[TN_Vixen]

Laurel...

I understand what you've said but haven't given it enough time to digest in order to make a definitive yes I agree/no I don't..statement... BUT (you knew that was coming, eh?)

But, I can't hold spirituality equal with science. I can't. Science relies on fact and on tangible evidence that can be tested and re-tested in order to prove viability. Spirituality is simply beyond the realm of that method. It is definied in essence by it's lack of tangibility. How can a parent present material to a child based upon scientific factuality or non? Even more complicated, how can a parent expect a child to absorb and discerne b/w what may be a viable belief system and what is not if they aren't active participants in assisting that child in their own decision making process?

We're all guily of predicating our own belief system upon those around us most vulnerable to our quest. It's inevitable isn't it? And most pointedly so with our own children.

 

[TN_Vixen]

Understand any of it?

well maybe they can't.. not really.. and maybe you're right. It would seem so by my logic, hmm? (smile)

I think of it simply as planting the seed. Helping an idea take growth...

I was discussing something with my mother the other night and I told her the reason why I had such difficulty understanding anything my father tried to teach me was b/c he gave me so many different ways to look at a problem. In his effort to be so open to possibilities, he caused me to be confused and aggravated that I chose, in the future, to no longer ask his opinion about things. Don't give me 10 reasons why... don't offer 15 different solutions... just give me one or two to chew on and attempt to assimilate and after that, give me a few more.

... did I just answer my initial question here? (smile)

 

[*bratcat*]

Re: bratcat & Xander

 

[*bratcat*]

Laurel

 

[TN_Vixen]

bratcat

yes it did answer my question and I apologize for being so thick that I didn't see it initially

I'm proud of you for standing up for your beliefs and even more impressed with your parents backing you the way they have despite their initial backlash.

However, what turned to towards the Catholic belief at 25?

 

[Laurel]

Re: Laurel...

I understand what you've said but haven't given it enough time to digest in order to make a definitive yes I agree/no I don't..statement... BUT (you knew that was coming, eh?)

But, I can't hold spirituality equal with science. I can't. Science relies on fact and on tangible evidence that can be tested and re-tested in order to prove viability. Spirituality is simply beyond the realm of that method. It is definied in essence by it's lack of tangibility. How can a parent present material to a child based upon scientific factuality or non? Even more complicated, how can a parent expect a child to absorb and discerne b/w what may be a viable belief system and what is not if they aren't active participants in assisting that child in their own decision making process?

Oh no! I'm definitely not equating science with spirituality. Not at all. I am saying that a child has the right to choose which belief system makes sense to him. What if he or she is born to Jewish parents, but he or she finds that Christianity 'rings truer' to him or her?

We're all guily of predicating our own belief system upon those around us most vulnerable to our quest. It's inevitable isn't it? And most pointedly so with our own children.

Absolutely. That's one of the many many reasons I'm saying no to Motherhood. (I have a cat - she's enough responsibility for me, and I won't have to worry about that God question. And she's spayed, so no birds & bees talks either.) My only point is that the woman who smirked at the mention is Jesus Christ is just as guilty of teaching her children intolerance as the mother who tells her children that nonbelievers and nonChristians are damned to Hell for eternity. Both are wrong IMHO, but it's their family and their children, I suppose.

 

[*bratcat*]

Re: bratcat

 

[TN_Vixen]

Laurel.. so are you saying?

that not having to explain religion is just ONE of the reasons you have decided against motherhood or one of the main reasons?

Not making a judgment call here, just curious. And my curiosity lies in the belief (my belief) that a woman cannot fathom the full gift of being a woman without having the experience of giving birth. Maybe I'm just alone in this thought but there's truly nothing like having that baby in your arms for the first time.. there's nothing like it on earth period.

As far as your other comments are concerned. I happen to agree.. yeah that doesn't lend to an interesting discussion but it's true and it is something I've been faced with recently and am currently struggling with.

My struggle now is not whether or not he will attend a church but WHAT denomination? My ex husband - who, thankfully is very involved in our son's life, is a Baptist. ~sigh.... Southern Baptist. mmm hmmm..

Not me, so now how to I direct my child's interaction? Where do I start and where do I attempt to draw the line?

 

[Todd]

I was born into a milatantly athiest family, I was raised to be athiest, and educated to beleive only athiesm was right. Any talk of a god or jesus or bible or religion was immediately confronted with a beating or a soapy mouth. Any talk of going to a church of any sort was switftly dealt with a spanking.

The only thing that was taught to me about religion were the contradictions in the Book of mormon, Bible, Turan, and other Religious Bible of denominations in my area.

It was this animosity and utter distaste for religion that my family had that made me go secretly behind there back and study it out for myself with out them telling me what the relgion believed.

It was through this process that I came to believe in christianity amongst the different religions of my area as my personal choice for religion.

I make no excuse for what has been done in history by religion, but an equal amount of hienosity has occured at the hands of non religious movements as well, and just because that was done by a nameless faceless group does not make thier deaths better thatn those by a named religion.

Religion does not kill, twisted men/women leading other men/women and using religion as an excuse kills people.

All that siad, if my child choices to not want religion though that may be heart breaking I will not force my belief unto him/her.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Laurel]

Re: Laurel.. so are you saying?

that not having to explain religion is just ONE of the reasons you have decided against motherhood or one of the main reasons?

No, not religion precisely. I'm saying that having a child is a tremendous responsibility that most people do not comprehend. They take it on without fully understanding that they're shaping a life, and that what they do has serious consequences.

You cannot have a child and continue to live life as you always have - sacrifices must be made, ones that I am not willing to make. I enjoy traveling. We travel several times a year. If I had kids, I'd either have to pull them out of school - disrupting their education - or leave them in another's hands. Both, IMHO, are irresponsible.

I enjoy running this site. As much as I do not believe what I'm doing is immoral, I also feel that this site is not for children. Sex is an adult topic. Children should enjoy their childhood. Eventually, I would have to explain my little hobby to my kids - either that or hide it from them and know that they know I'm hiding something. They'd catch snippets of conversation, flashes of screen images over my shoulder before I could switch over. Kids aren't stupid. If I were to have children, I would quit running this site. That is only fair to them.

Plus, I life a rather childlike life. Since I'm self-employed, I stay up late and sleep in late. I eat junk food. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs (unlike my father, who did all in excess), but I think kids deserve a proper role model and a regular schedule.

It all comes down to my realization that parenting is one helluva responsibility. Discussing religion with your kids is the tip of the iceberg - there's also sex, drugs, make-up, curfews, and college choices. I think most parents handle such issues horribly. They default to whatever they personally believe and then react angrily when the child questions them.

I'd like to think I'd be better than that, but who knows. You try not to screw your kids up in one way, and you end up screwing them up in another. If I can't be the absolute perfect mother, I don't want to even try. The risks are too great, and a child is too precious. And it's not like the human race is in dire need of my womb, that's for sure.There'll be plenty of breeding couples to replace my vacant space, lol.

Hypothetically, whatever religion my child would pick isn't really as much of an issue to me as what moral values he chose. I know Christians who are ignorant, intolerant, hateful turds. I also know Christians who are kind, generous, and good-hearted. The same can be said of any belief, or non-belief. Faith doesn't guarantee that a person is good - not by a long shot.

Not making a judgment call here, just curious. And my curiosity lies in the belief (my belief) that a woman cannot fathom the full gift of being a woman without having the experience of giving birth. Maybe I'm just alone in this thought but there's truly nothing like having that baby in your arms for the first time.. there's nothing like it on earth period.

That's probably true. Every path you choose means a path you didn't choose. I'm just selfish. I can't see giving up my life to raise a child. I want to give all my love & attention to Manu (& Aiko, & the torts ). That's me, good or bad. In my defense, at least I'm honest with myself enough to recognize this in advance, unlike many women I know (including my own mother) who had children and then treated them like baggage.

 

[Xander]

I guess what it all comes down to in this case. Is a double edged sword.

The interpretation of each belief system, has through history, caused more blood, than anything else in history. But that's not saying that all followers is like that. However, in my humble experience, there's more religious sickos out there, than one would believe.

That howevr do have a tendency to scare the shit out of me. There is no telling what these people are able to do.
Let me get it out in the open, that I do not refere to middle eastern countries here. Even though they do have the biggest history of religious mayhem in the world.

I am talking about, your next door neighbour. I'm talking about your basic TV preacher. I'm talking abut those who has not educated themselves enough, to know what other belief systems, than their own is all about.

And to, when I read and study the different belief systems. We got a hell of a lot more in common, than differences.

I was born Buddihst, raised Protestant. And now I have only one belief. Mine!