Nobel Peace Prize for Sam Walton/Walmart?

amicus

Literotica Guru
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
14,812
Knowing that just the title of this post will infuriate the, ‘usual suspects’ the left wing social liberals, social democrats as Pure prefers, note that I do so with full knowledge of that but also that I propose that if a ‘Nobel Peace Prize’ has any meaning at all, which I personally think it does not, then awarding such a ‘prize’ should be decided by a rational, objective standard of value considering the merits and accomplishments of the recipient.

Note also that even in the United States, the labor union free Walmart outlets give employment to tens of thousands and provide an average savings of over $2,000 a year for all the lower and middle class shoppers who frequent Walmart stores.

Those savings and benefits are provided through the free market resources utilized by Walmart worldwide to bring lower prices of common objects to American shoppers. Walmart has not bowed to the pressure of Unionization and the conspiracy of ‘Union Made’ products to keep prices high for the average consumer.

And outside the United States, in Honduras for example, indigenous people will move their entire families hundreds of miles to work at Walmart funded clothing factories at $13.00 a day when the prevailing wage is $2.00 a day in the normal economy.

While $13.00 a days may seem miniscule to the typical left wing sot in college, it is a tremendous benefit to those in third world countries seeking to better their place in life.




(Keywords search: “Nobel Peace Prize for Walmart”

October 17, 2006
A Nobel for WalMart?

John Tierney asks rhetorically, "I don’t want to begrudge the Nobel Peace Prize won last week by the Grameen Bank and its founder, Muhammad Yunus. But has he done more good than Sam Walton?" (The article is "TimesSelect" so it is not free of charge.
Tierney refers to this article on TCS, which begins with the following:

Between 1990 and 2002 more than 174 million people escaped poverty in China, about 1.2 million per month. With an estimated $23 billion in Chinese exports in 2005 (out of a total of $713 billion in manufacturing exports), Wal-Mart might well be single-handedly responsible for bringing about 38,000 people out of poverty in China each month, about 460,000 per year.

And this:
Even without considering the $263 billion in consumer savings that Wal-Mart provides for low-income Americans, or the millions lifted out of poverty by Wal-Mart in other developing nations, it is unlikely that there is any single organization on the planet that alleviates poverty so effectively for so many people.

Moreover, most of the sweatshops workers in Japan in the 1950s and 60s, as well as the most of the sweatshop workers in Taiwan and South Korea in the 1970s and 80s, are now middle class retirees in developed nations. Likewise most of the "underpaid" Chinese workers of today will retire in a state of comfort and luxury unimaginable to them in their rural youth, as average Chinese wages will gradually rise just as they have risen in every other nation that has experienced long-term economic growth.

And, echoing Hayek's observations regarding 19th century English factories:
An unreflective passion for social justice may be one of the biggest obstacles to creating peace and prosperity in the 21st century. While there are most certainly factory owners in China whom we would rightly regard as criminal in their treatment of their workers, it is very important not to confuse these incidents with the phenomenon of globalization. It is a good thing that Wal-Mart is encouraging more humane standards in its supplier's factories.

Posted by Wilson Mixon at 10:27 AM in Economics


Between 1990 and 2002 more than 174 million people escaped poverty in China, about 1.2 million per month.[1] With an estimated $23 billion in Chinese exports in 2005 (out of a total of $713 billion in manufacturing exports),[2] Wal-Mart might well be single-handedly responsible for bringing about 38,000 people out of poverty in China each month, about 460,000 per year.

There are estimates that 70 percent of Wal-Mart's products are made in China.[3] One writer vividly suggests that "One way to think of Wal-Mart is as a vast pipeline that gives non-U.S. companies direct access to the American market." [4] Even without considering the $263 billion in consumer savings that Wal-Mart provides for low-income Americans, or the millions lifted out of poverty by Wal-Mart in other developing nations, it is unlikely that there is any single organization on the planet that alleviates poverty so effectively for so many people.[5] Moreover, insofar as China's rapid manufacturing growth has been associated with a decline in its status as a global arms dealer, Wal-Mart has also done more than its share in contributing to global peace.[6]

How can this be, given the vast and growing literature documenting Wal-Mart's faults? We have seen workers in the factories of Wal-Mart's suppliers complain on tape about being forced to work long hours under terrible conditions. Certainly no one should be forced at any workplace. And yet even articles documenting Wal-Mart's faults often mention other facts that ought to be considered before coming to too quick a judgment concerning the overall impact of the corporation. In a Washington Post story titled "Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices," documenting abuses of workers at Wal-Mart suppliers in China, the authors point out that:

"China is the most populous country, with 1.3 billion people, most still poor enough to willingly move hundreds of miles from home for jobs that would be shunned by anyone with better prospects."

If we care about alleviating global poverty we need to take this fact seriously. Without Wal-Mart, about half a million of these people each year would be stuck in rural poverty that is, for most of them, far worse than sweatshop labor.

D. Gale Johnson, an economist who studied regional inequality within China, described the enormous disparity between urban and rural workers as "the great injustice."[7] Urban workers earn about 2.5 times as much as rural workers.[8] Even after counting the higher cost of living in urban areas, urban workers make about twice as much.[9] Not surprisingly, massive numbers of people are moving to the city to work in factories. In 1990, 71 percent of China's labor force was in agriculture, whereas by 2000 that percentage had dropped to 63 percent: this great migration represents roughly 100 million people leaving rural areas to earn, on average, twice as much as they had on the farm.[10]

Other than economic growth, there is no way to double the salaries of a 100 million people (and growing). After the 2004 Asian Tsunami, more than one-third of Americans gave more than $400 million in charitable aid, an extraordinary outburst of giving by any standard. And yet there are more than 630 million rural Chinese remaining, many of whom are living on less than a dollar per day. While each would welcome a charitable dollar if we could get it to them, that charitable dollar, representing one good day's worth of income, would not do them nearly as much good as would a job in the city paying twice as much day in, day out. Charity cannot take place on an adequate scale to solve global poverty.

Despite Jeff Sachs' enthusiasm for foreign aid, Bill Easterly makes a compelling case that government-to-government aid damages economies as often as it helps them.[11] Does anyone think the World Bank raises more people out of poverty than does Wal-Mart?

What about social entrepreneurship? Ashoka, the highly regarded social entrepreneurship organization certified as among the "Best in America" charities, highlights among its hundreds of projects a worker's cooperative in Brazil that is growing rapidly:
Each member contracts individually with Coopa-Roca, but the collective meets weekly. Membership in the cooperative grew from eight members in 1982 to 16 in 2000, and has surged to 70 steady members today.[12]

Is it heroic to raise one person up out of poverty each month, but merely a statistic to raise a million up?[13]

Grameen Bank, the granddaddy of the social entrepreneurship movement, has now served 5 million borrowers. Over a period of twenty-five years, their five million served is thus of the same order of magnitude as the five million or so brought out of poverty by Wal-Mart in the last fifteen years. Micro-finance has become a hit with global development experts because it is the only poverty alleviation initiative, other than economic growth, that appears to be scalable.

That said; there is a thatched-ceiling to poverty alleviation through micro-finance.[14] It may well be the case that the vast majority of Grameen Bank micro-entrepreneurs experience considerably greater pride and happiness in their work than do the factory workers hired by Wal-Mart suppliers. But most of these micro-entrepreneurs, who borrow less than $100 each and then repay the loan, do not experience as large an increase in standard of living as do those rural Chinese who move to urban areas and thereby earn an extra $1 or so per day, $365 or so dollars per year. Poor, rural micro-entrepreneurs selling eggs to other poor rural peasants simply do not have access to the vast pipeline of wealth from the developed world.

Moreover, most of the sweatshops workers in Japan in the 1950s and 60s, as well as the most of the sweatshop workers in Taiwan and South Korea in the 1970s and 80s, are now middle class retirees in developed nations. Likewise most of the "underpaid" Chinese workers of today will retire in a state of comfort and luxury unimaginable to them in their rural youth, as average Chinese wages will gradually rise just as they have risen in every other nation that has experienced long-term economic growth. At present rates of economic growth, China will reach a U.S. standard of living in 2031.

Paul Krugman, one of the most aggressively left-liberal economists writing today, understands how economic growth helps the poor:
"These improvements ... [are] the indirect and unintended result of the actions of soulless multinationals and rapacious local entrepreneurs, whose only concern was to take advantage of the profit opportunities offered by cheap labor. It is not an edifying spectacle; but no matter how base the motives of those involved, the result has been to move hundreds of millions of people from abject poverty to something still awful but nonetheless significantly better."[15]

The Nobel laureate economist Robert Lucas once said "Once you start thinking about economic growth, it is hard to think about anything else." Non-economists, especially those associated with the environmental movement, regard this as evidence that economics is a form of brain damage, a cancer on our earth. But rural Chinese peasants surviving on less than a dollar per day do not regard economic growth, or Wal-Mart factory jobs, as a cancer. When a Mongolian student at a U.S. workshop on globalization heard U.S. college students denounce sweatshops, he shouted: "Please give us your sweatshops!

An unreflective passion for social justice may be one of the biggest obstacles to creating peace and prosperity in the 21st century. While there are most certainly factory owners in China whom we would rightly regard as criminal in their treatment of their workers, it is very important not to confuse these incidents with the phenomenon of globalization. It is a good thing that Wal-Mart is encouraging more humane standards in its supplier's factories. And yet it is also important to remember that Wal-Mart's "vast pipeline that gives non-U.S. companies direct access to the American market" is a vast pipeline of prosperity for the hundreds of millions of rural Chinese whose lives are more difficult than we can imagine.

Act locally, think globally: Shop Wal-Mart.
Michael Strong is CEO and co-founder (with John Mackey) of FLOW.

( http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=082206D )

~~~~~

The United States, indeed the world at large, can not survive the social democrats controlling Congress and the White House in 2008.

Let this be a first effort to bring attention to that conclusion. With that in mind :

I give blanket permission to anyone who wishes to copy and paste my comments on any political Web log (Blog) on any relevant site to further the quest to maintain human freedom and democratic principles worldwide. I would request that you identify the source as Amicus International, aka, amicusveritas@gmail.com

Thank you…

Amicus…
 
This year's Nobel Peace Prize was undoubtedly the most well-deserved in decades, if not in the entire existence of the award. I should have known you'd start a thread like this about it sooner or later... :rolleyes:
 
[QUOTE=Lauren Hynde]This year's Nobel Peace Prize was undoubtedly the most well-deserved in decades, if not in the entire existence of the award. I should have known you'd start a thread like this about it sooner or later... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

~~~~~

Ah, Miz Hynde, do I sense sour grapes over your inability to make your left wing socialist nation prosper even in competition with mostly other collective endeavors, sighs...will you folks never learn that you cannot use force to remake people in your image?

Give them freedom my dear, thas all they require.

amicus...
 
Last edited:
Likewise most of the "underpaid" Chinese workers of today will retire in a state of comfort and luxury unimaginable to them in their rural youth, as average Chinese wages will gradually rise just as they have risen in every other nation that has experienced long-term economic growth.

My brother, who lives in Walmart land says it has a wonderful policy of: Full employment for Chinese workers.

As the Chinese worker retire in 'a state of comfort and luxury unimaginable to them in youth,' the better paid American worker, whose pension is coming unhinged, and whose American company caves to Walmart will correspondingly retire in a state of poverty unimaginable to him or her in his youth.

I think the article's documentation of benefits for the Chinese workers is admirable. Who'd have thought Ami was so concerned about uplifting his little yellow brothers overseas.

As the second author piously intones:

If we care about alleviating global poverty we need to take this fact seriously. Without Wal-Mart, about half a million of these [Chinese] people each year would be stuck in rural poverty that is, for most of them, far worse than sweatshop labor.
 
amicus said:
While $13.00 a days may seem miniscule to the typical left wing sot in college, it is a tremendous benefit to those in third world countries seeking to better their place in life.


Amicus…

Well then, why don't you peddle your saggy ass down there and do something productive @ 13.00 per day...
 
No offense, but the nobel prize follows either inventions, great long-lasting new programs, or otherwise novel ideas that have directly led to lasting and important benefit.

Without even going into Walmart as an entity or anything about it and assuming that it personally gives 20 orgasms per hour to each worker and visitor to its factories and stores, it has invented shit, done little novel other than take an aggressive approach to cost-cutting capitalism and social transformation and selective support.

These prizes are a recognition for specific works that go beyond such considerations as profit. I fail to see Sam Walton even vying for a Nobel Prize nor deserving. But I can understand the backlash as Americans go pale at the knowledge that it is not their people who win 100% of the time.

On Nobel Prizes, I usually follow the sciences. I think the big news is Andrew Z. Fire's nobel prize for RNAi. RNAi is a biological method which allows a scientist to effectively "knockout" a specific gene in vivo (while the cell is alive and fully functioning as it does in the body or in the environment) and see what effect it has on the cell. This method has allowed for quick identification of quite a number of cellular proteins as well as understanding cellular processes which occur too fast to be visualized with an electron microscope.
 
*yawn*

Let me see if I get this right... I'm suppossed to call a wage that amounts in a month to what our corporate lawyers spent at dinner last night for me and one of our VPs a 'tremendous benefit'.

Since I have certain issues with hypocricy... how about as someone from 'that region' I suggest a different way of saying it...

"Hey... at least you and your kids aren't as hungry as that guy and his kids!"
 
One pulls people from poverty to dependancy.
The other pulls people from poverty to INdependancy.

Nuff said. Niehter is as bad as starving, but clearly, the latter is far better.
 
lol i only saw this thread because of other posts...would have missed it otherwise. too bad i got the urge to click. should have let sleeping dogs lie. :rolleyes:
 
Well, I'm not so sure about the Nobel Prize part of this, but I have a few things to say about Wal Mart.

Wal Mart has, rather unjustifiably, become the company that everyone loves to hate. I see no evidence that Wal Mart treats its employees any worse than any other department or grocery store. It's always being bashed for importing so much stuff from China, when it actually doesn't import a higher percentage of stuff from China than anyone else does. China just happens to be where the majority of products are manufactured today, period. Like the OP said, industrialization in Asia is helping to build strong middle classes. This is quite true. Also, if you'll notice, a lot of the generic, Wal Mart brand products are actually made in Canada. Take a look sometime.

Wal Mart is derided for putting 'mom and pop' stores out of business. The mom and pop stores around here deserve to go out of business. They close at about 6-8 pm, have a dismal selection of products, and very high prices. Who needs that? Wal Mart is open 24 hrs, will return anything with no questions asked, and has a huge selection of products, at rock-bottom prices. I'm pretty poor, and Wal Mart has saved me a ton of money. I've just recently been sick, and I had to get a prescription the other day for some antibiotics. Wal Mart just 2 days ago started the policy in my area of offering most generic drugs at $4 for a prescription. That's just a lifesaver. The last time I got that prescription at Walgreens it was almost $25, and I paid $4 for it at Wal Mart. Since I only paid $4 for the medicine, I could spend the rest of the money I had on groceries, instead of having to decide whether to spend my money on medicine OR food.

Go ahead, bash Wal Mart if you want. If you like spending more money and getting less convenience, just knock yourself out. Me, I'm poor, and need all the help I can get stretching my money.
 
Last edited:
hi yinbu,

Me, I'm poor, and need all the help I can get stretching my money.

This irony has been pointed out. For many people, the reason they are poor is that they work at Walmart.
 
[I said:
Pure] Me, I'm poor, and need all the help I can get stretching my money.

This irony has been pointed out. For many people, the reason they are poor is that they work at Walmart.
[/I]

~~~~~

Well, if nothing else, Pure is consistent....

Consistently wrong about everything...izzere a prize for that?

amicus...
 
Pure said:
Me, I'm poor, and need all the help I can get stretching my money.

This irony has been pointed out. For many people, the reason they are poor is that they work at Walmart.
Walmart doesn't pay less than any other stores around here. They just get bashed more than the rest of them do, since they're the current 'boogeyman'.
 
maybe not, yinbu, but it's pretty clear they, in many cases, pay less than a living wage, and further encourage some employees to apply for state assistance to get by (i.e., offload employee related expenses to the state). what are the wages of Walmart, near you?
 
You see, if you make a lot of money and improve people's live you are still scum and your enterprise is still an exploiter unless you also solve all the problems in the world and create utopia. Whatever improvements you do make don't count as long as there are some people touched in any way by your enterprise whose lives are very difficult. Whether their lives were even more difficult before your enterprise touched them is irrelevent.
 
Lucifer_Carroll said:
On Nobel Prizes, I usually follow the sciences. I think the big news is Andrew Z. Fire's nobel prize for RNAi. RNAi is a biological method which allows a scientist to effectively "knockout" a specific gene in vivo (while the cell is alive and fully functioning as it does in the body or in the environment) and see what effect it has on the cell. This method has allowed for quick identification of quite a number of cellular proteins as well as understanding cellular processes which occur too fast to be visualized with an electron microscope.
I totally agree. RNAi has been huge in the field of scientific study, the applications of which we've only started to scratch the surface.

Frankly, I could see doing away with the Peace and Economics Nobel prizes. Or perhaps make them alternate every other year.

Economic theories just take too long to test in real life.
 
the right wing promoters of Walmart are generally lacking in facts about any alleged benefits to Americans, and are reduced to saying, "since you attack Walmart, you hate prosperity, success and the American Way."


"the average pay of a sales clerk [italics mine] at Wal-Mart was $8.50 an hour, or about $14,000 a year, $1,000 below the government's definition of the poverty level for a family of three."

According to Scott, the Walmart CEO, the cheapest family healthcare plan would cost $155/mo, or more than $1800 of that.


here are a tiny sample, and a url at the end for Walmart's sweetheart settlement with the Dept. of Labor.

http://www.slate.com/id/2113954/

The Wal-Mart Manifesto

The retail giant's CEO says his company pays workers handsomely. He doesn't want you to believe him.

By Timothy Noah

Posted Thursday, Feb. 24, 2005, at 12:14 PM ET

H. Lee Scott Jr., the chief executive officer of Wal-Mart, argued in a speech yesterday in Los Angeles (click here to listen to it) that Wal-Mart is a force for good in the economy. Scott is hardly the first corporate chairman to echo "Engine" Charlie Wilson's claim that what's good for General Motors is good for America.

And many independent observers have noted that Wal-Mart's relentless downward pressure on overhead has been a boon to American consumers. (In a recent New Yorker column, James Surowiecki took this further, arguing that the retail economy has become a sort of dictatorship of the consumer, and that Wal-Mart, which earns only pennies on each dollar of sales, is merely doing what it must to stay alive.)


What's fairly new in Scott's speech (a related ad campaign was launched last month) is Wal-Mart's rising on its hind legs to tell the world that it is good to its employees. I'd thought it was a settled matter that Wal-Mart had achieved its miraculously low prices by squeezing its employees. Not so, said Scott:

Scott: Wal-Mart's average wage is around $10 an hour, nearly double the federal minimum wage. The truth is that our wages are competitive with comparable retailers in each of the more than 3,500 communities we serve, with one exception—a handful of urban markets with unionized grocery workers.

… Few people realize that about 74 percent of Wal-Mart hourly store associates work full-time, compared to 20 to 40 percent at comparable retailers. This means Wal-Mart spends more broadly on health benefits than do most big retailers, whose part-timers are not offered health insurance. You may not be aware that we are one of the few retail firms that offer health benefits to part-timers. Premiums begin at less than $40 a month for an individual and less than $155 per month for a family.




The apparent purpose of the speech was to counter political resistance to the building of Wal-Mart "supercenters" in California. But if Scott saw much danger that Wall Street might believe his rosy picture of labor relations, he wouldn't paint it, because that would create an investor stampede away from Wal-Mart stock. What we have, then, is a unique rhetorical form: Nonsense recited by someone who is relying on most of his listeners to understand that he is spouting nonsense.

Wal-Mart took the trouble to send this speech out to writers "who are in a position to influence a lot of others," according to a cover e-mail I received from Mona Williams, Wal-Mart's vice president for corporate communications. I took Williams' email as a plea to expose the dishonesty in Scott's remarks (Stop us before we kill again!) disguised as a plea to give Scott's remarks a fair hearing. I will try to oblige.
Wal-Mart's average wage is around $10 an hour.

As Tom Geoghegan, a labor lawyer in Washington (and author of Which Side Are You On?: Trying To Be For Labor When It's Flat On Its Back) points out, the relevant number isn't the average, which would be skewed upward by the large salaries of relatively few highly-paid company executives—Scott, for example, receives, by one reckoning, 897 times the pay of the average Wal-Mart worker—but the median.

In the Dec. 16 New York Review of Books, Simon Head, director of the Project on Technology and the Workplace at the Century Foundation, stated,

"the average pay of a sales clerk [italics mine; TN] at Wal-Mart was $8.50 an hour, or about $14,000 a year, $1,000 below the government's definition of the poverty level for a family of three."

That the current minimum wage of $5.15 per hour leaves families even farther below the poverty line is a depressing topic for another day.

The truth is that our wages are competitive with comparable retailers in each of the more than 3,500 communities we serve, with one exception—a handful of urban markets with unionized grocery workers.

Wal-Marts have traditionally targeted rural areas where unions are weak, so of course the pay would be lousy at comparable retailers nearby. What Scott doesn't mention is that Wal-Mart is now so large—its workforce, Head points out, is "larger than that of GM, Ford, GE, and IBM combined"—that it drives down wages at other retailers, too. As Geoghegan observed to me,

Wal-Mart is the behemoth that forces everyone else's wages down and then says, "Hey, we're no worse than anyone else." They turn everyone else into Wal-Mart and then say, "Are we any worse than the other Wal-Mart wannabees?" Now that everyone has to play their game, they like to come across as the industry's statesman. It's disgusting.

The disparaging reference to "urban markets with unionized grocery workers" is a reminder that Wal-Mart has successfully resisted virtually all efforts to unionize its stores, even in labor-friendly blue states.

Few people realize that about 74 percent of Wal-Mart hourly store associates work full-time, compared to 20 to 40 percent at comparable retailers.

Yes, but what exactly is a "full-time worker"? Typically, full-time is defined as 40 hours a week or more. At Wal-Mart, it's defined as 34 hours a week. So of course Wal-Mart has more "full-time" workers. Fewer hours worked, I need hardly point out, means that Wal-Mart's "full-time" employees are less likely than employees elsewhere to be able to afford premiums for any health insurance they're offered. According to Head, fewer than half of Wal-Mart's employees can afford even the company's least-expensive health plan.

I won't bother enumerating the many, many times Wal-Mart has been accused of violating its own professed policies regarding child labor, working employees off the clock, promoting women, and so on, but you can find that here.

http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/walmartmemo.html
 
Last edited:
Back
Top