Our Bad Book Club is taking on Coleen Hoover -- How is she so successful

[Wifetheif]

The one thing I most certainly do not want to do is silence you.
I am more than happy to read and try to understand your opinion. It is incredibly valuable, and I implore you to share them. In that way, we all learn.
All I ask is... Share them for what they are. Your thoughts and perceptions...
You are an educated human being, of course you have opinions, and they shall probably differ from mine.
All I ask is you quantify your interpretations as that. Your opinion...
I do not want to see you pushed aside or ignored. I have enjoyed our discussion.
As a human being myself, I enjoy hearing and seeing other peoples points of view. How, could we prosper without differing views?
Remember, in the absence of fact... All we have is opinion, hypothesis, ideas, and questions...
Our ideologies do take a different path. You want to judge, whereas, I prefer to ponder, and consider. If after due consideration. I have nothing useful to add. I remain silent...

An old saying I heard somewhere. "You cannot make your candle burn brighter by blowing others out."

Engineering, and science deal in tangible facts. Not opinion. There are no shortcuts in the academic world. project management depends on making crucial decisions. For that we study the critical facts... Buildings are not built on opinion.

Cagivagurl

As I an others have pointed out "Success" does NOT necessarily men "Good" or even "Competent" "The Room" by Tommy Weiseu is a "success" in that it has made a TON of money. At the same time it is generally considered by critics and casual fans alike as one of the WORST movies ever made. Should we all be imitating Tommy Weiseu and churning out tugid, disjointed melodramas that are so incompetently made they are comparable to a cinematic automobile crash? Financially by any measure it is a success. BUT if every movie was "The Room" the populace would burn every movie theater in the world down. Again Popularity and "Success" do not equal quality, skill, competence, or style. McDonald's sells millions of burgers every year they are a very successful business BUT Is McDonald's ever any adults first choice selection for a meal? NO! Colleen Hoover is a "success" from a sales point BUT again that does not mean that she produces quality or even competentcy. Would I love her sales figures? Absolutely! Would I want that success if it meant writing like her? Absolutely NOT. Your narrow definition of "success" has blinded you to nuance and talent. Somethings like McDonald's burgers can sell billions and still be utter crap. Hiting the best sellers list is no mean feat. For a short time one of my e-books was the top selling satirical book on Amazon. Snookie from the "Jersey Shore" has hit the NYT best seller list. Her book was a "success" but can you think of anyone who would like to read it? Especially today? I'm sure you know licensed engineers who you would want nowhere near any of your projects. They are "successful" engineers but are they "good" ones? Just like having a PhD does not prevent you from being an idiot. Hitting the bestsellers list is no proof of quality, intelligence, or competence. THAT has ALWAYS been my point! But all you see are Hoover's sales. She churns out books like "The Room" train wrecks in paperback form. Lots of people turn out to watch the car crash. That doies not make the car crash a "good" thing even if it draws standing-room-only crowds? I think we both know the answer to that one.

 

[YmaOHyd]

 

[Cagivagurl]

As I an others have pointed out "Success" does NOT necessarily men "Good" or even "Competent" "The Room" by Tommy Weiseu is a "success" in that it has made a TON of money. At the same time it is generally considered by critics and casual fans alike as one of the WORST movies ever made. Should we all be imitating Tommy Weiseu and churning out tugid, disjointed melodramas that are so incompetently made they are comparable to a cinematic automobile crash? Financially by any measure it is a success. BUT if every movie was "The Room" the populace would burn every movie theater in the world down. Again Popularity and "Success" do not equal quality, skill, competence, or style. McDonald's sells millions of burgers every year they are a very successful business BUT Is McDonald's ever any adults first choice selection for a meal? NO! Colleen Hoover is a "success" from a sales point BUT again that does not mean that she produces quality or even competentcy. Would I love her sales figures? Absolutely! Would I want that success if it meant writing like her? Absolutely NOT. Your narrow definition of "success" has blinded you to nuance and talent. Somethings like McDonald's burgers can sell billions and still be utter crap. Hiting the best sellers list is no mean feat. For a short time one of my e-books was the top selling satirical book on Amazon. Snookie from the "Jersey Shore" has hit the NYT best seller list. Her book was a "success" but can you think of anyone who would like to read it? Especially today? I'm sure you know licensed engineers who you would want nowhere near any of your projects. They are "successful" engineers but are they "good" ones? Just like having a PhD does not prevent you from being an idiot. Hitting the bestsellers list is no proof of quality, intelligence, or competence. THAT has ALWAYS been my point! But all you see are Hoover's sales. She churns out books like "The Room" train wrecks in paperback form. Lots of people turn out to watch the car crash. That doies not make the car crash a "good" thing even if it draws standing-room-only crowds? I think we both know the answer to that one.

Success... hat is it?
For me success doesn't rely on quality, quantity or content. It relies on attaining the goals you set...
Lets talk purely about writing.
If an author sets out to make money. The sole goal of the project is financial. Nothing else matters... It makes a million dollar profit for the author. It reached its goal... That is success in anybody's language... Target achieved.
If the author set out to write something she or he could be proud of. Then the target shifts. How do you measure that??? Good question....
That success could be measured by popular acclaim. It is widely accepted as well written. Again success...
What if the book is popular with the general readership, but is canned by a few critics... I guess at that point you might add together the measures. Number of books sold. Profit made. General feeling of the audience.
If after taking those into consideration. It made money, sold many books, and aside from a few critics, the general feelings ere positive. Again success.
Success is hard to measure when the boundaries are so wide. If everybody hated it, then easy, it's a failure.
However, if the book does sell well, but has a small faction of haters. Is it still a success? Read above.
Not everything has to be perfect to be successful.
Looking at it from a purely selfish perspective. When I attempt to write, I do so for my own pleasure. Did everybody like it? I don't care, if I liked it, enjoyed writing and posting it. Then I'm happy, and it's a success because I set very low goals. For others, it's probably different.
If you're writing to build an audience, get as many views as possible, then the benchmark would be different.
Success is a sliding scale.
What I see as success, you could see as failure. Neither is right or wrong... Merely different.
Is McDonalds successful? Very much so. Do I eat there every day? No, but occasionally, if I'm in a rush...
Is Colleen Hoover successful? Yes, I think she probably is. Do I care? Not really, I haven't read anything from her... She sure is getting a lot of extra publicity here, so that's gotta be a good thing...

Success, if I get through the day ith a smile on my face. It's been successful. IMO...

Cagivagurl

 

[AH_Mod]

I'm leaving this thread open and intact for the moment, in hopes that some will take a step back, count to ten, and take it down a notch or three. Sometimes, bad behavior needs to remain on record. However, if it continues the way it did on the previous page, the thread will be locked, or many posts are going to be removed.

Those who find the discussion stimulating should continue it, and ignore the bickering tangents, because if the thread appears to have run its course, locking it will be my first choice.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I'm leaving this thread open and intact for the moment, in hopes that some will take a step back, count to ten, and take it down a notch or three. Sometimes, bad behavior needs to remain on record. However, if it continues the way it did on the previous page, the thread will be locked, or many posts are going to be removed.

Those who find the discussion stimulating should continue it, and ignore the bickering tangents, because if the thread appears to have run its course, locking it will be my first choice.

Apologies if I have overstepped the boundaries.

Cagivagurl

 

[Wifetheif]

Success... hat is it?
For me success doesn't rely on quality, quantity or content. It relies on attaining the goals you set...
Lets talk purely about writing.
If an author sets out to make money. The sole goal of the project is financial. Nothing else matters... It makes a million dollar profit for the author. It reached its goal... That is success in anybody's language... Target achieved.
If the author set out to write something she or he could be proud of. Then the target shifts. How do you measure that??? Good question....
That success could be measured by popular acclaim. It is widely accepted as well written. Again success...
What if the book is popular with the general readership, but is canned by a few critics... I guess at that point you might add together the measures. Number of books sold. Profit made. General feeling of the audience.
If after taking those into consideration. It made money, sold many books, and aside from a few critics, the general feelings ere positive. Again success.
Success is hard to measure when the boundaries are so wide. If everybody hated it, then easy, it's a failure.
However, if the book does sell well, but has a small faction of haters. Is it still a success? Read above.
Not everything has to be perfect to be successful.
Looking at it from a purely selfish perspective. When I attempt to write, I do so for my own pleasure. Did everybody like it? I don't care, if I liked it, enjoyed writing and posting it. Then I'm happy, and it's a success because I set very low goals. For others, it's probably different.
If you're writing to build an audience, get as many views as possible, then the benchmark would be different.
Success is a sliding scale.
What I see as success, you could see as failure. Neither is right or wrong... Merely different.
Is McDonalds successful? Very much so. Do I eat there every day? No, but occasionally, if I'm in a rush...
Is Colleen Hoover successful? Yes, I think she probably is. Do I care? Not really, I haven't read anything from her... She sure is getting a lot of extra publicity here, so that's gotta be a good thing...

Success, if I get through the day ith a smile on my face. It's been successful. IMO...

Cagivagurl

Is more than a thousand one-star reviews on Goodreads success or a failure? A success in that more than a thousand people reviewed the book. Most authors even with mega best sellers get more than a thousand reviews of any kind but is it a “success” most authors would want? She also has a much larger number of five star reviews for the same book. At the very least we can say that it is a novel that many people have serious reservations about even among Hoover’s own fan base. Clearly then it is not an entirely successful novel despite its massive sales. A novel that raises that much antipathy among readers of all stripes might sell a lot but could it ever be considered “good” or successful in anything but sales. It would be very difficult to say yes. How many great or good novels are so problematical that more than a thousand readers of all stripes have taken time out of their day to one star it. You will find that with no other author! This novel has a scene where a young couple consider their newborn son and, “ We laugh at our son”s big balls!” Typical language I’m sure you will find in just about every classic novel. I’m sure all parents in all ages have laughed at their son’s big balls! Nothing creepy, problematic, or pedophiliac about that quote! No sir! In fact, I’m sure you could create a list of novels that includes scenes of new parents laughing at their son’s big balls and come up with dozens of examples since it is such a normal and typical behavior and a scene that any number of successful novels include. So simply put is laughing at an infant son’s big balls a phrase one would find in a “successful” novel or not? Yes or no?

 

[Cagivagurl]

Is more than a thousand one-star reviews on Goodreads success or a failure? A success in that more than a thousand people reviewed the book. Most authors even with mega best sellers get more than a thousand reviews of any kind but is it a “success” most authors would want? She also has a much larger number of five star reviews for the same book. At the very least we can say that it is a novel that many people have serious reservations about even among Hoover’s own fan base. Clearly then it is not an entirely successful novel despite its massive sales. A novel that raises that much antipathy among readers of all stripes might sell a lot but could it ever be considered “good” or successful in anything but sales. It would be very difficult to say yes. How many great or good novels are so problematical that more than a thousand readers of all stripes have taken time out of their day to one star it. You will find that with no other author! This novel has a scene where a young couple consider their newborn son and, “ We laugh at our son”s big balls!” Typical language I’m sure you will find in just about every classic novel. I’m sure all parents in all ages have laughed at their son’s big balls! Nothing creepy, problematic, or pedophiliac about that quote! No sir! In fact, I’m sure you could create a list of novels that includes scenes of new parents laughing at their son’s big balls and come up with dozens of examples since it is such a normal and typical behavior and a scene that any number of successful novels include. So simply put is laughing at an infant son’s big balls a phrase one would find in a “successful” novel or not? Yes or no?

Not an answer I can give...
As I have said previously.
I haven't read it.
I cannot argue ether it is a good book or not. hat I can say is...
The sales tell you it has filled one portion of the measures. It has sold ell, and is regarded by some as a very good read.
There's the old mantra. You cannot please everybody.
without understanding the context of the parents admiring and laughing at their child's big balls. I cannot comment...
Perhaps it's a metaphor.. who knows. Not I...
The public has spoken. More people enjoyed it than hated it... If a story drove that many people to comment on it. Then it obviously moved them deeply.
To embolden that many readers tell me it affected them. Even if it was to complain. Their emotions were stirred.
That alone tells me the writing can't have been all bad.
As long as she is happy with it's performance. Then it qualifies as a success. IMO...

Cagivagurl

 

[Wifetheif]

Not an answer I can give...
As I have said previously.
I haven't read it.
I cannot argue ether it is a good book or not. hat I can say is...
The sales tell you it has filled one portion of the measures. It has sold ell, and is regarded by some as a very good read.
There's the old mantra. You cannot please everybody.
without understanding the context of the parents admiring and laughing at their child's big balls. I cannot comment...
Perhaps it's a metaphor.. who knows. Not I...
The public has spoken. More people enjoyed it than hated it... If a story drove that many people to comment on it. Then it obviously moved them deeply.
To embolden that many readers tell me it affected them. Even if it was to complain. Their emotions were stirred.
That alone tells me the writing can't have been all bad.
As long as she is happy with it's performance. Then it qualifies as a success. IMO...

Cagivagurl

The context was as given. A young couple is contemplating their two day old son. They notice his attributes and “we both laugh at our sons big balls,” Not metaphors, not satire, not weird joke just flat out weirdness bordering on pedophilia. I love how you tried to bury the lede by trying to explain away that creepiness as metaphors. Anything to hide from the truth. Anything to keep from making a decision. Anything to avoid admitting being wrong.Let’s try again, is it normal for parents to bond and giggle over the size of their infant’s balls? If so, why is it in no other novel ever written?Is that situation and sentence a ‘success?’ Is casual pedophilic and incest obsession of your own infant the elements of a successful novel. Yes or no?

 

[Cagivagurl]

The context was as given. A young couple is contemplating their two day old son. They notice his attributes and “we both laugh at our sons big balls,” Not metaphors, not satire, not weird joke just flat out weirdness bordering on pedophilia. I love how you tried to bury the lede by trying to explain away that creepiness as metaphors. Anything to hide from the truth. Anything to keep from making a decision. Anything to avoid admitting being wrong.Let’s try again, is it normal for parents to bond and giggle over the size of their infant’s balls? If so, why is it in no other novel ever written?Is that situation and sentence a ‘success?’ Is casual pedophilic and incest obsession of your own infant the elements of a successful novel. Yes or no?

Again, you read between the lines...
Pretty sure I said, I haven't read it...
I have no interest in the story. Context for me comes in what's said before and after... I decide for myself whether it's odd, or strange...
All I did was throw up some questions...
I'm neither defending, or criticizing the story... Remember. I haven't read it... I'm certain I've said that repeatedly...
Your opinions are yours, and you are free to air them as you see fit.
I don't have to agree with you.
Freedom of speech... A great concept... Yes or no????

Cagivagurl

 

[StillStunned]

People, you disagree about something. You'll never convince each other of your positions. Take a deep breath, shrug your shoulders and move on.

 

[TheLobster]

Take a deep breath, shrug your shoulders and move on.

You know damn well that that is simply impossible.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm leaving this thread open and intact for the moment, in hopes that some will take a step back, count to ten, and take it down a notch or three. Sometimes, bad behavior needs to remain on record. However, if it continues the way it did on the previous page, the thread will be locked, or many posts are going to be removed.

Those who find the discussion stimulating should continue it, and ignore the bickering tangents, because if the thread appears to have run its course, locking it will be my first choice.

Good call, IMO.

Off-topic, it's strange how that ADMIN guy didn't show up this time? That couldn't be because no one is criticizing the website, could it?

 

[Wifetheif]

Again, you read between the lines...
Pretty sure I said, I haven't read it...
I have no interest in the story. Context for me comes in what's said before and after... I decide for myself whether it's odd, or strange...
All I did was throw up some questions...
I'm neither defending, or criticizing the story... Remember. I haven't read it... I'm certain I've said that repeatedly...
Your opinions are yours, and you are free to air them as you see fit.
I don't have to agree with you.
Freedom of speech... A great concept... Yes or no????

Cagivagurl

Just keep moving those goal posts!

 

[YmaOHyd]

"The Room" by Tommy Weiseu is a "success" in that it has made a TON of money.

(It did not make a ton of money. It grossed about three million bucks on a $6m budget. It made some of that back in video sales later, largely because it's so bad it can't easily be replicated. It has one of the most important qualities in modern entertainment, which is authenticity. It also has a bunch of free word-of-mouth because many people believe it's the worst movie ever made. It's much harder to create things that are authentic and interesting yet also extremely bad than it is to create things that are blandly competent, which is why we wouldn't be flooded with Wiseau clones even if The Room had been financially successful.)

 

[pink_silk_glove]

(It did not make a ton of money. It grossed about three million bucks on a $6m budget. It made some of that back in video sales later, largely because it's so bad it can't easily be replicated. It has one of the most important qualities in modern entertainment, which is authenticity. It also has a bunch of free word-of-mouth because many people believe it's the worst movie ever made. It's much harder to create things that are authentic and interesting yet also extremely bad than it is to create things that are blandly competent, which is why we wouldn't be flooded with Wiseau clones even if The Room had been financially successful.)

It's right up there with Rocky Horror Picture Show, Purple Rain and Rock and Roll High School for repertoiry cinema screenings. It has to have made more than $6M. Midnight screenings usually sell out with people in tuxedos bringing footballs and plastic forks.

 

[Wifetheif]

(It did not make a ton of money. It grossed about three million bucks on a $6m budget. It made some of that back in video sales later, largely because it's so bad it can't easily be replicated. It has one of the most important qualities in modern entertainment, which is authenticity. It also has a bunch of free word-of-mouth because many people believe it's the worst movie ever made. It's much harder to create things that are authentic and interesting yet also extremely bad than it is to create things that are blandly competent, which is why we wouldn't be flooded with Wiseau clones even if The Room had been financially successful.)

Some of the actors such as the guy who plays Mark have gone on record as saying that he's made far more money off his residuals for "The Room" than he has for his roles in mainstream films.The Actress who plays Lisa has reported much the same effect. For them the "Room" is an unqualified success despite both being quite embarassed at having it on their resume.

 

[YmaOHyd]

It's right up there with Rocky Horror Picture Show, Purple Rain and Rock and Roll High School for repertoiry cinema screenings. It has to have made more than $6M. Midnight screenings usually sell out with people in tuxedos bringing footballs and plastic forks.

The-Numbers has it at $3m cumulative. Box Office Mojo has the original release at $82,000, the 2017 re-release at $1.3m, the 2019 re-release (which was driven in part by The Disaster Artist if I remember right) at $3.4m, the 2020 re-release at $360k and the 2023 re-release at $14k for a total of $5.2m. The data's definitely incomplete, looking more closely. Regardless, I stand by what I said generally: it's not replicable, because the draw is this is the worst movie of all time, and also it's camp. And that's not a formula that anyone can reliably release to, and we won't/can't be deluged with Room clones.

Some of the actors such as the guy who plays Mark have gone on record as saying that he's made far more money off his residuals for "The Room" than he has for his roles in mainstream films.The Actress who plays Lisa has reported much the same effect. For them the "Room" is an unqualified success despite both being quite embarassed at having it on their resume.

Might be true! But it can't be imitated, and that's my larger point.

 

[Wifetheif]

The-Numbers has it at $3m cumulative. Box Office Mojo has the original release at $82,000, the 2017 re-release at $1.3m, the 2019 re-release (which was driven in part by The Disaster Artist if I remember right) at $3.4m, the 2020 re-release at $360k and the 2023 re-release at $14k for a total of $5.2m. The data's definitely incomplete, looking more closely. Regardless, I stand by what I said generally: it's not replicable, because the draw is this is the worst movie of all time, and also it's camp. And that's not a formula that anyone can reliably release to, and we won't/can't be deluged with Room clones.


Might be true! But it can't be imitated, and that's my larger point.

Unquestionably it can't be replicated. When people try to make an intentionally "bad" movie they are unwatchable in a way that authentic bad movies aren't.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Just keep moving those goal posts!

LOL...
I'm not sure I could have been more consistent. From my very first comment, I said. I haven't read it. I have repeatedly tried to explain. My position has been that your views right or wrong. Were merely an opinion. I have never defended her work aside from saying it has obviously been reasonably successful, when measured against some of the matrix used for such.
Here you and I differ is. You like to judge, whereas. I don't. Not publicly anyway. Of course I do my assessment in my head. I will share it with my friends, but I don't do it publicly...
You are obviously happy to shred other writers creations, openly criticising them, I am not.

We all find ourselves... decide on philosophies that suit our personalities. I consider myself to be a creator, in various mediums, music, Paint, and of course words. I don't consider myself a writer, so I am never going to shred, or tear somebody else's hard work and passion down.
If I don't like it, I simply move on... Find something else...

Cagivagurl

 

[XerXesXu]

For a less heated discussion of the issues arising in this thread I recommend ‘Literary Theory for Robots’ by Dennis Yi Tenen published in 2024.

Quote

‘The Analytical Engine was to achieve for the world of letters what the Jacquard loom has done for the commercial weaving of fabrics.

…

There’s just something unsavory about the thought of individual human genius being diminished by mechanical reproduction. Several modern high-art or avant-‐ garde movements have even defined themselves explicitly in opposition to industry. For the Romantics, like George Byron or William Wordsworth, and the modernists, like Bertolt Brecht, Franz Kafka, Walter Benjamin, or Virginia Woolf, to be human was to raise an exception. There, in the rarefied heights of individual genius, the automated sank beneath the surface of creativity, much less intelligence, in favor of the handcrafted and the extraordinary. Scholarship in the humanities inherited the Romantic emphasis on the exception at the expense of the automated, and therefore the instrumental and the collective. Many everyday practices of reading, writing, and interpreting texts—besides fiction—have fallen out of scholarly purview as a consequence.’

…

Few artists like to admit to painting by the numbers. Nobody wants to seem ordinary. The occasional visibility of artifice—portable, explainable, documented, transferable, automated—therefore tends to startle or repulse audiences acculturated into the privilege of exceptional human genius. But it also shouldn’t, because an emphasis on those aspects of an art that can be transferred, instead of inherent talent, lies at the basis of a democratic education.’

Unquote

This work is essential reading for anyone who expects, or hopes, to spend more than a couple more years in the 21st century.

EDITED to change the date of publication from 1924 to 2024. The 21st century is hard going for us old folk.