No Hell

[Guest]

i think 'hell as separation from God' is an old theological gambit.
making it (stubbornly and enduringly) self chosen, of course, is an attempt to make the concept not so reflective of a terrible or vengeful God.

The choice of "gambit" above shows an obvious prejudice. Your opinion is common; is there a point aside from it?

Perdita

 

[damppanties]

Hell never made much sense to me. In a Christian sense.

According to Christian theology, God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnimerciful.

So He knows what's going to happen, He could change it if he wanted and would change it if the event is something bad or evil.

I know, free will, but from God's point of view, there is no free will. He knows everything including what will happen.

It always seemed odd to me that God would punish people horribly forever for something He's ultimately responsible for.

What about forgiveness then?

My view is a little different from yours, but not much. I see God as a behavioural scientist. You know, all those experiments where if the cat pressed this button it's rewarded and if he presses that one it's buzzed to an inch of it's life? Or all of those rats running in mazes? Those are human beings and God is the one who looks at all of us and takes notes on a big pad. We're free to run around as we wish, but we're given the knowledge that you do this and you go here. Do good, go to heaven. Fuck up, go to hell. There's free will, with clearly defined consequences. By which time it ceases to be free I suppose...

He's not exactly resonsible for what happens, what we do or our actions. What he's responsible for is the maze. And the forbidden cheese and the buzzer button.

 

[English Lady]

Perdita, I do love you, you know. You say things I want to say before I even think them, and often you say them more eloquently too.

Taken from the article you posted:

"July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God."

Thats exactly, spot on what I think .


Oh and I echo you're replies to RG ('cos I was confused by his reaction at first too) and to Pure.


SO yeah, I just posted to erm, well, post another post I guess

Oh and Sub Joe -banishment, yes that might be part of it, but as I say, if you don't give a shit about a life WITH God, you're not going to be particularly bothered about a life without him, maybe?

 

[Guest]

... He's not exactly resonsible for what happens, what we do or our actions. What he's responsible for is the maze. And the forbidden cheese and the buzzer button.

Brilliant!

Perdita

 

[R. Richard]

It might be well to point out that many religions have the concept of Hell, not just the Christian religion [I am not a Christian].

In the Christian religion, born in the hot climates of the middle East, hell is a place of fire. In the old Norse religion, Hell was a place of freezing cold. In at least several of the Polynesian religions, Hell was a place deep in the ocean, far from the sunlight. In summary, Hell is a place that the believers do not want to be.

 

[Guest]

EL: . Stunned, and grateful.

Perdita

 

[Pure]

eternal wrath?

Perd said, Ok. But if you don't believe in Gawd (or Dog), you've nothing to fear, eh?

The choice of 'Gawd' and 'Dog' above shows an obvious prejudice. Your opinion is common; is there a point aside from it?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I know God doesn't send people to hell, they choose to go there. I don't think ever person who decares themselves a church going christian will be in Heaven and I'm pretty certain a fair few non Christian folks will be in Heaven.

God Knows, and to me, thats a very comforting statement.

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him? I know Dante kind of gave them condos in Purgatory, with no maid service though.

I mean, if God really loves us, then there is no hell. If there is a hell, then he doesn't really love all of us, but selectively withholds his love, kind of like a four year-old.

I mean, think of the way you feel towards your kids. Can you really imagine sentencing your child to hell because of something she does or doesn't do? I can't. And that's just puny garden-variety human-type love. God's is supposed to be a lot bigger and godly.

And if God's the guy in the lab coat-- Well, the relationship between a behavioral scientists and his rat in a maze is not what I think of loving at all. Slightly sadistic is more like it. So maybe you're right. So we're supposed to worship this rat-runner?

 

[Guest]

Perd said, Ok. But if you don't believe in Gawd (or Dog), you've nothing to fear, eh?

The choice of 'Gawd' and 'Dog' above shows an obvious prejudice. Your opinion is common; is there a point aside from it?

You're a sore loser, puerile. I was writing a personalized post to a friend, with humor. You should get some.

Perdita

 

[cloudy]

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him?

I mean, if God really loves us, then there is no hell. If there is a hell, then he doesn't really love all of us, but selectively withholds his love, kind of like a four year-old.

I mean, can you really imagine sentencing your child to hell because of something she does or doesn't do? I can't. And that's just puny garden-variety human love. God's is supposed to be a lot bigger and godly.

yes.

 

[English Lady]

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him?

I mean, if God really loves us, then there is no hell. If there is a hell, then he doesn't really love all of us, but selectively withholds his love, kind of like a four year-old.

I mean, can you really imagine sentencing your child to hell because of something she does or doesn't do? I can't. And that's just puny garden-variety human love. God's is supposed to be a lot bigger and godly.

Oh bugger, I need that damn verse, and I always forget where it is. bugger it. There is a verse in the New Testament somewhere that says God knows a mans heart, he knows how any person would react to the gift of Christ if it were available to them, so all those about before Jesus died were judged by that, all who were there, everyone from that point on who never heard of Christ all those who heard but never became "Christians" but believed in in their hearts and acted on it.

I don't like the way you call it, I don't see it that way. God is NOT witholding his love from anyone. Every single person on this earth, every person who was ever on it had the free will to accept Gods love or tell him to Fuck off.

He gave us free will, free will means we can decide to stick with Dad or metaphorically get pierced, get pissed and fuck off.

I am sure parents here will say they love their child no matter what, but there comes a time when that child is old enough to make up his/her mind and can go off and do what the hell they like. They can choose not to acknowledge the love and caring of a parent if they so choose too.

That's more how I see it. Love is there for everyone to accept, simple as that.

 

[Guest]

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him?

I mean, if God really loves us, then there is no hell. If there is a hell, then he doesn't really love all of us, but selectively withholds his love, kind of like a four year-old.

I mean, can you really imagine sentencing your child to hell because of something she does or doesn't do? I can't. And that's just puny garden-variety human love. God's is supposed to be a lot bigger and godly.

Good points, Mab., and not uncommonly asked. Your questions are what trip me up when I try to get theologically serious, so I don't (usually), though I enjoy theology as an academic exercise.

Anyroad, I was weaned on the RCC's catechism which spelled out very literally what god, heaven, sin, damnation, etc. meant. At that time the church defined certain bad actions as "mortal" sins. It meant if you died with a mortal sin on your soul you went to hell (case closed). Murder and adultery were judged such, and missing Mass on Sunday! I began to question my faith at age 10 when my father died because he was the best man I knew in the world but rarely went to Mass. I simply could not believe he was in Hell. I still can't.

Perdita

 

[English Lady]

Perdita, Jesus died once for all, for all people and to cover all sins. Once you've accepted that, nowt keeps you from the Love of God and Heaven

 

[Guest]

... I am sure parents here will say they love their child no matter what, but there comes a time when that child is old enough to make up his/her mind and can go off and do what the hell they like. They can choose not to acknowledge the love and caring of a parent if they so choose too.

It's times like this when I am glad I'm part of this forum. EL, that's one of the most brilliant theological analogies I've ever heard. Bless you, I needed that.

Perdita

p.s. Btw, if it turns out there really is a god (or gawd or giant dawg), I presume I'll be counted as one of those extremely ungrateful children, a prodigal daughter of sorts .

 

[damppanties]

I don't like the way you call it, I don't see it that way. God is NOT witholding his love from anyone. Every single person on this earth, every person who was ever on it had the free will to accept Gods love or tell him to Fuck off.

He gave us free will, free will means we can decide to stick with Dad or metaphorically get pierced, get pissed and fuck off.

I am sure parents here will say they love their child no matter what, but there comes a time when that child is old enough to make up his/her mind and can go off and do what the hell they like. They can choose not to acknowledge the love and caring of a parent if they so choose too.

That's more how I see it. Love is there for everyone to accept, simple as that.

I'll add my 'aye' to that.

 

[NoJo]

I believe there's Noel.

 

[English Lady]

Perdita, aww shucks, I'm blushing and I'm glad it hit a note with you, I cannot with any certainty say I came up with it, I bet I've borrowed it from someone else

Oh and I'm sure you'd make it in on at least the prodigal list, love.


Damppanties

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't like the way you call it, I don't see it that way. God is NOT witholding his love from anyone. Every single person on this earth, every person who was ever on it had the free will to accept Gods love or tell him to Fuck off.

Well, I'd like to accept his love, but he never called back.

Honestly. In some of my black nights of the soul, I've called on God for help, and I didn't hear squat and the pain didn't stop.

I think I'm a good person. I try to do right and not do evil. But the fact is, I just can't believe, and pretending to believe just doesn't do it. So what happens to me? Am I going to hell because I just can't believe? God could make me believe. Why doesn't he?

It's my haircut, isn't it?

 

[R. Richard]

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him? I know Dante kind of gave them condos in Purgatory, with no maid service though.

Let me ask a slightly different question. There is a Polynesian man who has lived his whole life in what would be judged as a good Christian manner, except that he never accepted Christ. One reason that the Polynesian man had never accepted Christ, was that the Polynesian man had never heard of Christ. The Polynesian man lies dying. A Polynesian speaking priest lands on the island and sprints up to the dying Polynesian man. He asks, "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior?" The Polynesian man asks, "Who?" The Polynesian man then dies.

According to strict Christian teachings, the Polynesian man is going to Hell. If he is, then no sane person would want anything to do with such teachings.

JMHO.

P.S. I think that the withhold of maid service was a trifle mean spirited!

 

[Guest]

It's my haircut, isn't it?

Crikey, I'm glad you said it.

Perdita

 

[English Lady]

Well, I'd like to accept his love, but he never called back.

Honestly. In some of my black nights of the soul, I've called on God for help, and I didn't hear squat and the pain didn't stop.

I think I'm a good person. I try to do right and not do evil. But the fact is, I just can't believe, and pretending to believe just doesn't do it. So what happens to me? Am I going to hell because I just can't believe? God could make me believe. Why doesn't he?

It's my haircut, isn't it?

*hugs*

theres no easy answer, you might not be listening to the right thing, Maybe God did answer just not in a way you expected (you're still here, still alive, still battling on) Oh and it's a bit of a bugger but Jesus said if we follow him we actually get MORE pain, yeah, it's that whole pick up thy cross thing.

God doesn't take away pain, he helps us through it.

Maybe by the mere desire to believe you're sorted. If God could go around proving himself to every disbeliever the whole belief thing would be a bit redundant.

Friend of mine told me something once that stuck.

If we could ultimatel prove God we'd be able to ultimately disprove God. It's the belief thing thats the key.

And maybe it's a process. We all don't have Pauls experience, bright lights, blindness, knowledge that Jesus is Lord, hallelujah! Maybe it's a process, maybe you're on your way darlin', you've made the first step, calling on him, I don't believe He's ignoring you, love.

 

[damppanties]

Well, I'd like to accept his love, but he never called back.

Honestly. In some of my black nights of the soul, I've called on God for help, and I didn't hear squat and the pain didn't stop.

I think I'm a good person. I try to do right and not do evil. But the fact is, I just can't believe, and pretending to believe just doesn't do it. So what happens to me? Am I going to hell because I just can't believe? God could make me believe. Why doesn't he?

It's my haircut, isn't it?

God could make you believe, but why would he? He really doesn't need your belief for himself. "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts."
And for you, He already tried to make you believe with all that he's given you to make you believe. It's what you make of it.

Doc, what do you expect from God? Thunder and a booming voice?
Do you expect total love and support and you never give anything back or anything to deserve that love? It somehow doesn't happen that way. You have to take a step forward of your own accord for Him to come to you.

 

[damppanties]

And if God's the guy in the lab coat-- Well, the relationship between a behavioral scientists and his rat in a maze is not what I think of loving at all. Slightly sadistic is more like it. So maybe you're right. So we're supposed to worship this rat-runner?

Well, if you want your cheese, yes.

I never said He's a loving God. It's a straightforward relationship according to me. Cleanly demarcated. Your ledger book is the thing that counts, nothing else.

But the point here is, if you're good, he is too. There's always the if though.

 

[oggbashan]

Inuit

When missionaries went to the Inuit, they had to modify their version of Hell.

A place of hot eternal fire, without having to work hard to find the fuel, seemed like Heaven to the Inuit.

Eternal unending unremitting cold - That is the Inuit Hell.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

If, there is a place of reward for those who follow God's laws and keep their covenants with him, then it would make logical sense there is a place of punishment for those who do not follow his laws of keep their covenants with him.

Heaven is the lace where you go to reap your reward, hell is the place you go to suffer for your crimes.At the Great White throne Judgement, all humanity will be judged and all shall be found lacking. For those who have accepted Christ, however, their transgressions are forgiven and they will not go to hell because of their faith in Jesus.

I think the concept is fairly straight forward. There is an after life and your actions in this one control where you will spend it.

Without getting preachy, the idea that started this thread, a fundy deciding hell didn't exist is so improbable as to make suspenson of disbelief impossible. there has to be a hell, wihout one, the main thrust of religion, the promise of a better afterlife really carries no weight.