No Hell

[mcopado]

I heard the piece when it aired in Detroit on Dec. 17th, and we discussed it briefly on the sex and spirituality thread.

Here is the info and the link to his church and to the "This American Life" website...It was an incedible piece....I emailed the pastor to share my support, but I'm sure their inbox got flooded with support and negative comments...

Heretics
The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson (pictured), an evangelical pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma. His church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend, he was denounced by almost all his former supporters, and today his congregation is just a few hundred people. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse ... he stopped believing in hell. Broadcast the weekend of December 16-18 in most places, or here via RealAudio next week.


Here's the website for This American Life

A belief in a literal Hell is not necessarily a belief held by all Christian Denominations, so it is conceivable that a literalist could change his views.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

For a few hundred years there has been a group of Christians, generally called 'universalists' (i.e., universal salvation) who have no hell (or at least no one goes there). Sometime this century they joined with the Unitarians (affirmers of one God, but not the equal Trinity).

There is another religion, called "Unity" (often confused with Unitarian, but they are not the same) that doesn't believe in hell... from their website:

"Sin is our separation from God, the Good, in consciousness. Salvation is now–not something that occurs after death. It happens whenever we turn our thoughts from fear, anxiety, worry, and doubt to thoughts of love, harmony, joy, and peace. The “fall” takes place in consciousness whenever we fall into negative habits of thinking. Heaven and hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. We make our own heaven or hell here and now by our thoughts, words, and deeds."

as for this:

Honestly. In some of my black nights of the soul, I've called on God for help, and I didn't hear squat and the pain didn't stop.

my idea of the divine isn't the Santa Claus version... even for the big things... I have to ask for the faith to get through, not for a specific outcome... and this is life, I don't expect the pain to stop... I may *want* it to... yeah... definitely have been on my knees aching and asking and even begging for the pain to go away... but I know that "this too shall pass"... we only have this moment... and this one... and this one... it is our presence and openness to the now that is all we have... we don't have the past, we don't have the future, although we torment ourselves believing that we do... the minute my words are typed, that moment is gone...

 

[mcopado]

There is another religion, called "Unity" (often confused with Unitarian, but they are not the same) that doesn't believe in hell... from their website:

"Sin is our separation from God, the Good, in consciousness. Salvation is now–not something that occurs after death. It happens whenever we turn our thoughts from fear, anxiety, worry, and doubt to thoughts of love, harmony, joy, and peace. The “fall” takes place in consciousness whenever we fall into negative habits of thinking. Heaven and hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. We make our own heaven or hell here and now by our thoughts, words, and deeds."

as for this:

I am a Unity Trained Minister, Unity isn't the only one of the New Thought Denominations that look at Hell metaphysically, Religuous Science, Christian Science don't either...

While Selena was posting her post I was digging through the S&S threads archives for Charles Fillmore's Definitions from the metaphysical Bible dictionary...

SATAN- Meta. The deceiving phase of mind in man that has fixed ideas in opposition to Truth (adversary, lier in wait, accuser, opposer, hater, an enemy). Satan assumes various forms in man's consciousness, among which may be mentioned egotism, a puffing up of the personality; and the opposite of this, self-deprecation, which admits the "accuser" into the consciousness. This "accuser" makes man believe that he is inherently evil.

Satan is the "Devil," a state of mind formed by man's personal ideas of his power and completeness and sufficiency apart from God. Besides at times puffing up the personality, this satanic thought often turns about and, after having tempted one to do evil, discourages the soul by accusing it of sin. Summed up, it is the state of mind in man that believes in its own sufficiency independent of its creative Source.

The Greek word that is translated "devil" in Luke 4:1-13 means accuser or the critical one. Personality describes the meaning more fully than any other word in the English language.

HEAVEN Meta. The kingdom of heaven, or of the heavens, is a state of consciousness in which the soul and the body are in harmony with Divine Mind.

Teachers of metaphysics find that their most difficult work is getting students to recognize that heaven is a condition of mind. Jesus evidently experienced like difficulty in making Himself understood, which accounts for the numerous parables and comparisons that He gave of the kingdom. These were all illustrative of some condition pertaining to the kingdom, and never did He describe it as a place located in some distant realm.

In spite of these oft repeated illustrations by Jesus showing the kingdom of heaven to be a state of consciousness the great mass of Christians are today teaching that it is a place, to which people who accept Jesus as their Savior will go when they die. There is no authority in the Bible for such doctrine. If such a place existed Jesus would certainly have described it plainly instead of giving parable after parable and illustration after illustration showing it to be a state of consciousness to be attained by man. In Matthew 13:31-33, 44-52, there are five short stories illustrating six different problems concerning this condition and our relation to it. Applying some of the laws of mind as we know them, we find that Jesus was talking about universal Truth and its expression.


Hades (in A.V., the New Testament, hell), ha'-des (Gk.)--not to be seen; not to be looked upon.

Hades is a Greek word; the Hebrew word meaning the same thing is sheol. In the English version of the Bible (the King James or Authorized Version), in the New Testament especially, it is generally translated hell. It is supposed to refer to the unseen world, or the abode of the dead. In reality, however, the word has reference to the grave or the "pit." In the Authorized Version, in many places in the Old Testament sheol is interpreted grave or pit. For examples see Genesis 37:35; 42:38; I Samuel 2:6;

I Kings 2:6; Job 14:13; 17:13, 16, and there are others. In the American Standard Version the word sheol is used in these texts. Please compare the two, and then look up the places where the translation hell is given.

Hades refers to the outer darkness, the realm of sense, in contrast to the inner or luminously spiritual. To live in the outer is to live outside the body, as it were; hence Hades came to be considered the realm of discarnate souls. In individual consciousness it may be likened to the darkened and silenced condition of seeming error when we have withdrawn from it all the power and substance of our thoughts about it and beliefs in it, when we have denied it, put it away from mind and body. Hades denotes the burying out of sight, out of thought and mind, of that above which the overcomer has risen, of that which has become inactive in his consciousness.

Hades may also refer, like Gehenna, to a state of purification. (See GEHENNA and HINNOM.)

Gehenna, ge-henn-a (fr. Heb.)--valley of Hinnom; valley of lamentation; valley of groaning (because of the cries and groans of the victims). A valley south of Jerusalem where the refuse of the city was burned. (The word Gehenna is not used in the American Standard Version, but it is the same as the Valley of Hinnom.)

The purifying fires of the soul are symbolized by the fires of Gehenna.


(Gk.)--region of lamentations; place of purifying fires; place of defilement. Ge Hinnom (Heb.)--region of lamentations; place of groaning. Hades (Gk.)--not to be looked upon; outer darkness. Sheol (Heb.)--hollow; cavernous; empty; outer darkness; place of unquenchable, consuming desires.

The Hebrew sheol; translated grave in I Samuel 2:6, pit in Numbers 16:30, and hell in Job 11:8, in the Old Testament, the Authorized Version; in the New Testament Hades and Gehenna are translated hell in Matthew 5:29. Gehenna, or Ge Hinnom, implies a place of fires and lamentation (Matt. 5:22, 29, in margin, and so forth), while Hades and Sheol give the thought of outer darkness, a place of consuming and unquenchable desires.

See HADES, HINNOM, and GEHENNA

One does not have to die in order to go to hell, any more than one has to die to go to heaven. Both are states of mind, and conditions, which people experience as a direct outworking of their thoughts, beliefs, words, and acts. If one's mental processes are out of harmony with the law of man's being, they result in trouble and sorrow; mental as well as bodily anguish overtakes one, and this is hell.
The booklet, "The Bible and Eternal Punishment," by A. P. Barton, gives the following definition of the word "hell": "The English word hell is from the Saxon verb helan, 'to cover, or conceal,' and intrinsically contains no idea of a place of torment, and never did smell of fire and brimstone in its Saxon home."

 

[virgin_not]

Hell is reality.One of Satan's favorite lies is to try to convince people that they suffer their hell on earth and that there is none hereafter. He also tries to get them to believe the lie that death only brings a state of sleep or rest. Another doctrine teaches that hell is only temporary and eventually after being in the fires of hell people become cleansed and purified to the degree that they will then be accepted into heaven. These terrible heresies are believed by many Christians who are ignorant of what God's Word has to say about it. Cults also teach that hell is a place where souls are simply annihilated and therefore no longer exist. Some teach reincarnation, giving people another chance to be born on this earth for as many times as it takes to become purified, progressing to higher forms each time they return. Others say hell is only a place away from God, but it is not a literal burning fiery hell. All of these are lies of Satan to cause people to minimize the reality of hell.

What does the Bible say about hell? To make a point, Jesus described this place as such a place of horror that it would be better to sever a member of our body that would lead us there, than to end up in that place of torments.

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched'' (Mark 9:43-48).

We don't have to cut our limbs or pluck out our eyes to be free from hell, Jesus made a way for us to escape this evil through our repentance and acceptance of what He did for us on the cross when He died for the sins of our flesh. However, we see clearly that His statement signifies the exclusion of the hope of restoration and that punishment is eternal once a person is there. He repeats the words, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," three times for emphasis.

Hell and hellfire are realities according to God's Word and any that speak otherwise are in error and are promoting false doctrine. The only way to escape this dreaded place is becoming a child of God so we can go to heaven. It is man's sin that is leading him to hell. If we repent of our sin and ask Jesus to come into our heart we not only can be saved from the hell to come but also delivered from the hell in this earth.

 

[virgin_not]

HELL WAS MADE FOR SATAN

This place was prepared for the devil and his fallen angels. It was never meant for man to go there. Man is going there by choosing to follow Satan and his evil ways by rejecting the free grace Jesus is offering to mankind. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41).

The Greek word for hell in the New Testament, "hades" means the same as "sheol" in the Old Testament Hebrew. It is also spoken of as the grave, the pit, and the place of the dead. It is described as below the surface of the earth (Numbers 16:30, Psalm 55:15), beneath the depths of the sea, and is also spoken of as "the deep." It has gates and bars that hold its prisoners. The wicked go down into the region of hell where they are kept in torment until the day of the White Throne Judgment. Hell is a place of shame, remorse, consciousness, memory, and anguish.

 

[cloudy]

Hell is reality.One of Satan's favorite lies...<snip>

I'm so glad you're happy in your belief, but that doesn't mean you're correct - only correct for you

gotta love folks preachin' on a porn board.

 

[zeb1094]

I'm so glad you're happy in your belief, but that doesn't mean you're correct - only correct for you

gotta love folks preachin' on a porn board.

Amen sister, amen!

 

[virgin_not]

I'm so glad you're happy in your belief, but that doesn't mean you're correct - only correct for you

gotta love folks preachin' on a porn board.

Im not saying Im correct..Im stating my views on this... everyone is entitled to his own views..

 

[cloudy]

Amen sister, amen!

I'm proud of myself. My first impulse upon reading stuff like that is to .

 

[zeb1094]

I'm proud of myself. My first impulse upon reading stuff like that is to .

Me too!

 

[cloudy]

Im not saying Im correct..Im stating my views on this... everyone is entitled to his own views..

No.

Stating your views means just that. NOT c&P'ing huge chunks of bible verse.

I have no problem with what you believe. I do, however, have a problem with being preached at.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I am a Unity Trained Minister, Unity isn't the only one of the New Thought Denominations that look at Hell metaphysically, Religuous Science, Christian Science don't either...

Hey cool! Where do you preach?

My mother and her mother were Christian Scientists... doh! Should have remembered that... although my mother later dropped the faith... and henceforth, I could stay home whenever I had the littlest stomachache

I'm also pretty sure Scientology also doesn't believe in hell... *koff*

thanks for that info, too... (aside from the fact that it's interesting... I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the aspects of Unity's positivist beliefs., but it's the first church I've ever attended where I don't want to either a. run screaming from the pew b. smack the minister upside the head or c. fall asleep ) I'm in the midst of writing an erotic version of Persephone and Hades, and you just gave me a fantastic idea!!!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

My understanding of hell is that it exists as the logical counter to a heaven. Further, belief in Christ is the only way to avoid it. If you remove the concept of hell, then you have removed the primary reason for a christ because you have removed the concept of salvation.

It's a pretty linear concept, you sin because you are human, your sin is abhorent to God, to find a place in the afterlife with god, you must atone for those sins, Christ, who was without sin, took your sins upon himself so that you might enter heaven with all your sins atoned for.

If you could live a sin free life, then the paradigm dosen't work. Also if dying without atoning carries no repercussion, the paradigm dosen't work. Hell then, is the neccessary repercussion which drives that particular paradigm.

To remove the concept of hell also removes the concept of reward & punishment. the actual conception of hell, as a firey place, or a cold place or a dark place or simply a place without the prescenmce of God is up to the individual believer or sect. The different conceptions are not p[articularly relevant, so long as hell is represented as a place that is not desireable.

 

[mcopado]

Hey cool! Where do you preach?

My mother and her mother were Christian Scientists... doh! Should have remembered that... although my mother later dropped the faith... and henceforth, I could stay home whenever I had the littlest stomachache

I'm also pretty sure Scientology also doesn't believe in hell... *koff*

thanks for that info, too... (aside from the fact that it's interesting... I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the aspects of Unity's positivist beliefs., but it's the first church I've ever attended where I don't want to either a. run screaming from the pew b. smack the minister upside the head or c. fall asleep ) I'm in the midst of writing an erotic version of Persephone and Hades, and you just gave me a fantastic idea!!!

I'm not sure what Scientology believes in, I tried to read one of their internal publications (Not dianetics) but like a monthly magazine....and to be honest it "scared" me...Can't describe why even, just seemed cold and mechanical, had pictures of their board in silver jumpsuit looking uniforms....I think 'cause they were buying a cruise ship or something...

I live in Port Huron, Michigan, and am taking a short break from preaching to pretty much care for my elderly parents who are both in health crises at this moment...I'm planning to start a small non-denominational "church" hopefull later this year once my parent's needs get taken care of and I can sleep for a month...

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[English Lady]

Hello again all, I've spent the afternoon looking for the verse i want, and I don't think I've found it yet, but anyhow, here is a few bits and pieces i thought some people might be interested in.

Can a Non Chistian be saved?

that site lists the different things different groups of Christians believe -it's a diverse list

Also there is this verse I like 1 corinthians 4:5 which says God will bring to light what is hidden in darkness (so he'll take everything in to account, not just what we show to the world)

And i was reminded of my favourite psalm 139 which says God knew me when i was being knitted together in my mothers womb, that all my days were pre-ordained. he knows my past, present and future.

So he can know how a person will or would have reacted to jesus death.

Anyhow, there you go. Just thought I'd share some of my search

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Hell is a place of shame, remorse, consciousness, memory, and anguish...

Been there.

Haven't we all?


but ya know, Hell is also a city in Michigan... been there, too!

 

[mcopado]

Hello again all, I've spent the afternoon looking for the verse i want, and I don't think I've found it yet, but anyhow, here is a few bits and pieces i thought some people might be interested in.

Also there is this verse I like 1 corinthians 4:5 which says God will bring to light what is hidden in darkness (so he'll take everything in to account, not just what we show to the world)

And i was reminded of my favourite psalm 139 which says God knew me when i was being knitted together in my mothers womb, that all my days were pre-ordained. he knows my past, present and future.

So he can know how a person will or would have reacted to jesus death.

Anyhow, there you go. Just thought I'd share some of my search

You need a good quality bible search software program...The best one I have found is E-sword...And it is free... http://www.e-sword.net/

I have it on cd-rom...I keep forgetting to update it though...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Well, that's the thing. If Christ died for our sins, doesn't that mean he died for all of them? Or just for the sins of those who believe in him? What about all the people who died before they got a chance to believe in him? I know Dante kind of gave them condos in Purgatory, with no maid service though.

I mean, if God really loves us, then there is no hell. If there is a hell, then he doesn't really love all of us, but selectively withholds his love, kind of like a four year-old.

I mean, think of the way you feel towards your kids. Can you really imagine sentencing your child to hell because of something she does or doesn't do? I can't. And that's just puny garden-variety human-type love. God's is supposed to be a lot bigger and godly.

And if God's the guy in the lab coat-- Well, the relationship between a behavioral scientists and his rat in a maze is not what I think of loving at all. Slightly sadistic is more like it. So maybe you're right. So we're supposed to worship this rat-runner?

As I understand it Doc, God loves everyone. God is, however, without sin and he cannot abide sin in his presence. He loves you no less if you have sinned, but he cannot have you in his prescence if you have sinned. One preacher put it this way, sin does not destroy your relationship with god, but it blocks you from having fellowship with god.

A paradoxx then exists, as god loves all men, but cannot have fellowship with sinners and all men sin. the resolution then, is to have an intermediary who has already paid for your sins. Jesus is that intermediary, having paid for your sins, you can enter into fellowship with god, as if you had not sinned, for those sins have been forgiven and absolved. Jesus represents atonement and the only form of atonement that can absolve you.

In the second part, if Jesus represents atonement, then it is still up to the individual to seek atonement. If you choose not to atone for your sins, God cannot abide you in heaven, as you are still with sin.

In your example of a child, this is perhaps more analogous. What if you developed an acute and life threatening allergy to cats. Assume too your daughter had five of them. If she could not bring herself to get rid of them, you would love her no less, but your ability to visit or have her over would be gone.

Following this analogy, god is allergic to sin. If you will not get rid of your sin, he loves you no less, but his ability to have fellowship with you is gone, because you have sin. If you give up that sin, fellowship can resume, if you choose not to, fellowship cannot. Jesus then, acts as an environment suit. You cannot help but have sin, but as intermediary, he renders your sin forgiven and no longer an impediment to fellowship. But you have to seek him out and accept him before he can.

 

[mcopado]

Been there.

Haven't we all?


but ya know, Hell is also a city in Michigan... been there, too!

Have yu ever been there when it freezes over??? I have...brrrrrr

 

[English Lady]

You need a good quality bible search software program...The best one I have found is E-sword...And it is free... http://www.e-sword.net/

I have it on cd-rom...I keep forgetting to update it though...

Ohhh you're a star


(sorry for the hijack Dr M )

 

[rgraham666]

Speaking of God as a parent doesn't work for me at all.

My dad loathed me and did all he could to make my life unpleasant. My mom cared but was quickly taught by my father to never 'coddle' me. "Life is a nasty, brutish business and you have to be tough to survive it" was his opinion.

Pat Robertson undoubtedly believes Jesus Christ is his Saviour and has a personal relationship with God. So did Torquemada. I do not believe (or disbelieve) either of these things.

According to Christian theology, Mr. Robertson will go to Heaven. And the man who burned thousands at the stake is a saint. Me? I'm going to Hell.

Thanks.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of "the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God.

Huh.

I'm not Catholic, but I remember all my friends going to CCD and talking about hell, purgatory, mortal sins, venial sins, etc. It totally turned me off to religion and God even before I knew what religion even was. All the nasty gore and pestilence and punishment in the Bible also turned me off. Those ancients were really blood-thirsty.

Had Pope John Paul's view been in vogue when I was a kid, I might have been more open to god, or some kind of faith in god. As it is, I think religion is manipulative crap. Relgion is what turns me off god. The application of religous faith turns me off. So, by that token, if separation from God is hell, then I, and others who don't have faith, are already in hell.

EL, I'll step up and agree with you - if you don't have faith in God, 'separation' from God doesnt' really seem so bad. Certainly not hellish. Especially if you have love and hope in your life that is not derived from a belief in God.

Just rambling. Sorry.

 

[mcopado]

Speaking of God as a parent doesn't work for me at all.

My dad loathed me and did all he could to make my life unpleasant. My mom cared but was quickly taught by my father to never 'coddle' me. "Life is a nasty, brutish business and you have to be tough to survive it" was his opinion.

Pat Robertson undoubtedly believes Jesus Christ is his Saviour and has a personal relationship with God. So did Torquemada. I do not believe (or disbelieve) either of these things.

According to Christian theology, Mr. Robertson will go to Heaven. And the man who burned thousands at the stake is a saint. Me? I'm going to Hell.

Thanks.

I agree...See you there
I also agreed with something you wrote earlier too....

If anyone is interested I posted a long History of the development of Satan in Christian thought on my thread Sex & Spirituality

Didn't want to dump it all this thread (I can do whatever the Hell I want over there )

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Speaking of God as a parent doesn't work for me at all.

My dad loathed me and did all he could to make my life unpleasant. My mom cared but was quickly taught by my father to never 'coddle' me. "Life is a nasty, brutish business and you have to be tough to survive it" was his opinion.

Pat Robertson undoubtedly believes Jesus Christ is his Saviour and has a personal relationship with God. So did Torquemada. I do not believe (or disbelieve) either of these things.

According to Christian theology, Mr. Robertson will go to Heaven. And the man who burned thousands at the stake is a saint. Me? I'm going to Hell.

Thanks.

My brother's favorite observation is on the thief who was crucified next to jesus. He accepted Jesus and thus he is in heaven, but he still paid with his life for his earthly crimes.

When you look at Pat, you have to ask questions. One that I continually ask is how serious his belief in Jesus is. His pronouncements on earthly affiars are antithical to the pronouncements Jesus made. His convictions seem more rooted in the old testament vengeful, angry god than they do in the new testament's vision of a loving and benevolent god. If you truly accept jesus, you work to achieve the ideals he stood for, does Pat seem to be working towards those ideals?

One thing about being saved is that it is a deeply private and personal decision. No one can know who is and is not saved. We look to a person's works to determine if they are. Pat's works would tend to indicate he is not.

On judgement day, I would not be at all surprised to find Pat is not among the saved.