New toplists

[THBGato]

I don't know if you've noticed, but the top lists have changed. Not just in appearance, but in how stories are ranked.

Formerly, stories with the same score were ranked by number of votes.

Now, stories with the same score seems to be ranked by publication date, newest first.

What are people's views on this change?


Personally, I think it's a net benefit as the top list trolling hit newer stories harder than old ones (as they had the weight of votes to resist, to an extent). This redressed the balance.

I also think it's now a better counterpoint to the "stories like this" lists, which are dominated by older stories, in lesbian at least. Those super popular older stories are still there, but now on page 4 or 5... And at the top of the "most favourites" list. But now newer but equally brilliant stories get a look in on page 1.

Finally, it's going to discourage writers from resting on their laurels and encourage them to write more, something I'll definitely welcome!

Thoughts?

 

[ElectricBlue]

They're still dominated by chaptered stories, with very high chapter numbers in some cases. Therefore meaningless for any fresh content. Top Lists have never interested me much for exactly that reason, so it's a meh kind of change, for me.

 

[Rob_Royale]

You're right. It's like that in First Time as well, except the very top story. Weird.

 

[JGittes]

The presentation's much better. It's basically an extension of the 'Popular' section of the category hub that I noticed a couple of weeks ago.

I doubt that it will have any effect on trolling activities since they're a dedicated crowd.

Getting the serial stories onto a separate top list would have been my number one priority, though.

 

[TheLobster]

What are people's views on this change?

My only toplist entry jumped from position 200+ to #86, so obviously I love it

 

[SimonDoom]

They're still dominated by chaptered stories, with very high chapter numbers in some cases.

This continues to be a problem that significantly diminishes the value and meaning of the toplists. The site has acknowledged it at times, and it surprises me a bit that they haven't done anything about it.

Some have suggested making separate toplists for standalone and chaptered stories, but that won't take care of the problem entirely. The chaptered story lists will be populated by individual chapters rather than by total stories. I think the better solution is to use the average of the chapter scores to determine whether the story should be on a toplist and use that to place it.

 

[millamomud]

They're still dominated by chaptered stories, with very high chapter numbers in some cases. Therefore meaningless for any fresh content. Top Lists have never interested me much for exactly that reason, so it's a meh kind of change, for me.

I would very much like it, when series would appear only once with an average score.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

This continues to be a problem that significantly diminishes the value and meaning of the toplists. The site has acknowledged it at times, and it surprises me a bit that they haven't done anything about it.

Some have suggested making separate toplists for standalone and chaptered stories, but that won't take care of the problem entirely. The chaptered story lists will be populated by individual chapters rather than by total stories. I think the better solution is to use the average of the chapter scores to determine whether the story should be on a toplist and use that to place it.

Finding an equitable way to distinguish chapter stories from standalone stories in several aspects would be beneficial. Including a single chapter of a story into "Similar Stories" recommendations is also misleading, IMO.

 

[Writer61]

I think the better solution is to use the average of the chapter scores to determine whether the story should be on a toplist and use that to place it.

100% agreement on that. That would give a better indication of the quality of a series rather than the list being distorted by a single exceptional chapter.

 

[SimonDoom]

Finding an equitable way to distinguish chapter stories from standalone stories in several aspects would be beneficial. Including a single chapter of a story into "Similar Stories" recommendations is also misleading, IMO.

Interesting. I had not thought of that. That's tricky, though, because some series have chapters that veer wildly from one category to another, and categories and tags play a role in determining similarity.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I would very much like it, when series would appear only once with an average score.

They are already consolidating information for the series on the author page, so it doesnt seem like it would be too big a jump to do that.
It would neatly solve the problem.

 

[JGittes]

I disagree with average series score being equivalent to a score on a stand alone story. Scores on series invariably increase as the series progresses, raising the 'average' from a series in a way that doesn't happen with a stand alone

Readers who don't like a particular series just don't open later chapters, so they aren't evaluating the whole work in the same way a reader finishing a stand alone evaluates that story. I've had plenty of slightly negative comments about how long my stories are and filled with what they believe unnecessary dialogue, description, or hot, sexy scenes.

A series doesn't suffer from the same evaluation, and an average of the series would still give too high a relative rating to stand alone stories.

Two separate lists are the way to go.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I disagree with average series score being equivalent to a score on a stand alone story. Scores on series invariably increase as the series progresses, raising the 'average' from a series in a way that doesn't happen with a stand alone

Readers who don't like a particular series just don't open later chapters, so they aren't evaluating the whole work in the same way a reader finishing a stand alone evaluates that story. I've had plenty of slightly negative comments about how long my stories are and filled with what they believe unnecessary dialogue, description, or hot, sexy scenes.

A series doesn't suffer from the same evaluation, and an average of the series would still give too high a relative rating to stand alone stories.

Two separate lists are the way to go.

To the contrary, I received feedback complaining about chapters being published separately, and when I changed to have the chapters removed and replaced by the single longer story, all the scores increased over the average for the chapters.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I disagree with average series score being equivalent to a score on a stand alone story. Scores on series invariably increase as the series progresses, raising the 'average' from a series in a way that doesn't happen with a stand alone

Readers who don't like a particular series just don't open later chapters, so they aren't evaluating the whole work in the same way a reader finishing a stand alone evaluates that story. I've had plenty of slightly negative comments about how long my stories are and filled with what they believe unnecessary dialogue, description, or hot, sexy scenes.

A series doesn't suffer from the same evaluation, and an average of the series would still give too high a relative rating to stand alone stories.

Two separate lists are the way to go.

They do increase... but they plateau, and there is variation in the scores. So a series will still have some advantage, it's not necessarily a huge one.
I agree that complete separation is ideal, just going with an average would likely be easier to implement, thus more likely to happen, and still solve 90% of the problem.
Politics is the art of the possible...

 

[millamomud]

Sorting by year would be awesome too.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Sorting by year would be awesome too.

It would be neat to see "top 50 stories of..."
For every year Lit has been around. Especially if it was only based on the votes it received that year.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This continues to be a problem that significantly diminishes the value and meaning of the toplists. The site has acknowledged it at times, and it surprises me a bit that they haven't done anything about it.

Didn't RR mention a couple of times that Laurel, or was it Manu (?) had said, years ago, that a solution for chaptered stories in the top lists is in the works? I guess they long-abandoned such attempts.

 

[Writer61]

Especially if it was only based on the votes it received that year.

That would disadvantage stories published later in the year. 'In the first twelve months after publication' would address that.

 

[Bamagan]

The best way to handle series on the top-lists is an intriguing puzzle. Two separate lists might be the simplest, but there is a potential problem for people who use the Series function to, for example, set a reading order for standalone stories in a shared universe, or to create a themed collection of some subset of their works.
Taking the average score for a series with dozens or hundreds of entries is, as mentioned above, not likely to do much to alter the score, but it would at least restrict it to a single entry. It might also be prudent to only allow series marked as "completed" to be represented on the top-lists, or at least the all-time top-lists.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

It might also be prudent to only allow series marked as "completed" to be represented on the top-lists, or at least the all-time top-lists.

I like this idea a lot.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I'm wondering if the reordering of the top lists isn't a way to see exactly who (account/IP address) is doing the targeting? By changing up the order, it's something that could incite the folks doing the manipulation into putting some new effort into it thus revealing themselves to whomever is paying attention?
I know nothing about any of this, but it's the only theory I could come up with because I don't see the sense here.

 

[TheLobster]

It might also be prudent to only allow series marked as "completed" to be represented on the top-lists, or at least the all-time top-lists.

That wouldn’t change anything, as you can still add chapters to a “completed” series.

 

[Writer61]

That wouldn’t change anything, as you can still add chapters to a “completed” series.

It would, insofar as authors are honest about a series' status.

 

[Bamagan]

That wouldn’t change anything, as you can still add chapters to a “completed” series.

It'd be easy enough to set it up so that any new entry resets the status to "in progress" and locks it that way for a month or whatever, or some similar fix to diminish the appeal of such shenanigans.

 

[SimonDoom]

. It might also be prudent to only allow series marked as "completed" to be represented on the top-lists, or at least the all-time top-lists.

I haven't thought about this before, but this is worth thinking about. Why should your chapter 1 of a 30 chapter story be able to appear on a toplist. Finish the thing and when it's done you're eligible.

From the standpoint of the reader, this makes some sense.