Negro dialect?

[ownedsubgal]

JM is right, a lot of people *do* alter their speech and accent at will - I know I sound different at home than I do here - but there's no reason to assume that everyone feels that "in two worlds" kind of thing so acutely, it's very individual. I imagine if you have more or less one mode it's kind of annoying to constantly hear how educated you sound and how "not like" your own race/class/locale.

...and how!

 

[JMohegan]

well you would find me odd or unusual then, considering your experiences, as i do not alter my speech based on the predominant race of my particular surroundings. i speak the way i speak, and have never felt inclined to shift back and forth as you're describing. i do not feel i am unusual in this respect.



i too have read Obama's autobiography, and have listened to many of his speeches to a variety of crowds. in my observations, his speech patterns do not shift according to the race of his audience. now of course sometimes his speech is somewhat more casual, and other times more formal, but that has nothing to do with ethnicity. so as far as i can tell, Obama does not have a "blackspeak" and a "whitespeak," nor do many other african-americans, and hence the offensiveness of Reid's comments.

I noticed it mostly in his conversations with Ray.

As I see it, this isn't a question of blackspeak vs. whitespeak. This is about the fact that some people speak in African American Vernacular English, at least part of the time.

As I've already said, it is your right to assume the worst about Reid or anyone else.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I noticed it mostly in his conversations with Ray.

As I see it, this isn't a question of blackspeak vs. whitespeak. This is about the fact that some people speak in African American Vernacular English, at least part of the time.

As I've already said, it is your right to assume the worst about Reid or anyone else.

i am not assuming the worst about Reid, i never said he was a monster or should be burned at the stake, i feel that his comments reflect a very ignorant mentality on african-americans shared by a great many (and after this exchange with you, i would gather "most") other whites in this country. He is probably a jolly old guy, whose almost best friends are black.

the fact that you genuinely believe that there is a common african-american pattern of speech (a negro dialect if you will), from coast to coast, north to south, blue collar to white, which unites and identifies us all, is really depressing me. but that's my fault for having a tendency toward idealism. when Daddy was discussing the Reid thing with me, he shook his head and laughed bitterly, telling me, "that's how they think of us and will always think of us." He was not referring to use of the word, "negro."

 

[JMohegan]

i am not assuming the worst about Reid, i never said he was a monster or should be burned at the stake, i feel that his comments reflect a very ignorant mentality on african-americans shared by a great many (and after this exchange with you, i would gather "most") other whites in this country. He is probably a jolly old guy, whose almost best friends are black.

the fact that you genuinely believe that there is a common african-american pattern of speech (a negro dialect if you will), from coast to coast, north to south, blue collar to white, which unites and identifies us all, is really depressing me. but that's my fault for having a tendency toward idealism. when Daddy was discussing the Reid thing with me, he shook his head and laughed bitterly, telling me, "that's how they think of us and will always think of us." He was not referring to use of the word, "negro."

African American Vernacular English.

I didn't make that up, and neither did Reid. Leaders of the African American community have been debating this for decades. Trying to balance the urge to legitimize the vernacular itself within the context of complex social and educational issues. Ever heard of MLK Elementary v. Ann Arbor Schools?

Entire courses are taught on this subject in Linguistics departments. See, for example, this.

For some people (including myself) it is extraordinarily insulting to be called ignorant and racist. No, you're not calling to burn Reid at the stake. But you *have* compared him to a 9 year old girl who declared that she hated all black people, and swept him up in the "eh, white people" generalization that I find racist in and of itself.

 

[JMohegan]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the African Americans whom I have known well speak one way in a mixed general setting (i.e., a setting involving mixed racial or ethnic backgrounds) and another way in a setting that is predominantly African American.

This has absolutely nothing to do with who is/is not "black." Nor is it an assertion relating to *all* African Americans.

And by the way, Osg, to refresh your memory here's my comment from yesterday.

So you can take your coast-to-coast misrepresentation of my comments, and shove it right up your ass.

 

[WriterDom]

I think all kids, black, white, brow, blue, whatever should be taught standard English.

 

[Keroin]

i am not assuming the worst about Reid, i never said he was a monster or should be burned at the stake, i feel that his comments reflect a very ignorant mentality on african-americans shared by a great many (and after this exchange with you, i would gather "most") other whites in this country. He is probably a jolly old guy, whose almost best friends are black.

the fact that you genuinely believe that there is a common african-american pattern of speech (a negro dialect if you will), from coast to coast, north to south, blue collar to white, which unites and identifies us all, is really depressing me. but that's my fault for having a tendency toward idealism. when Daddy was discussing the Reid thing with me, he shook his head and laughed bitterly, telling me, "that's how they think of us and will always think of us." He was not referring to use of the word, "negro."

Racism is not the domain of the white man alone. I’ve been the visible minority in plenty of the places I’ve lived, looked down upon by people of varying skin tones, including black. Racism is very much a human condition. Unfortunately.

As a white Canadian, I can drop into my Canuck dialect – yes, we have one – or I can lose the “eh’s” the “oot and aboot’s” etc, whenever I choose. My best friend, (not my ‘almost’ best friend, my best friend of 15 years), is black. We grew up not far from each other so our speech patterns are virtually the same. She can, however, drop into what she calls her “black-cent” whenever she wants. I’ve heard her do this from time to time. She can also put on her best West Indian accent when she chooses, (that’s her ancestry). I’ve never made a judgment call on her speech…or her colour. I love her for everything she is, not despite everything she is. And frankly I resent the “This how they think of us” statement.

 

[Netzach]

I have never heard a black person in my immediate vicinity say "he finna go work." He's fixin' to go to work maybe, which I've also heard from rural white minnesotans, but never from locally born white people in NYC.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying that the findings which view it as a generality rather than a locality issue are creepin' me out - there are so many variances in any two people's speech because we're more mobile than we used to be, we move around all the time picking up and dropping as we go.

 

[Netzach]

I think all kids, black, white, brow, blue, whatever should be taught standard English.

I agree with this, actually. It's perplexing enough. I do think that there are ways to teach this without *devaluing* dialects and variation, or labeling difference as stupid and incorrect - it requires dealing with context early on.

 

[Netzach]

FWIW, I am completely non offended by *eyeroll* "white people." I'll never *experience* a world of people not getting it on a daily basis to that extent, but I believe what people say about their reality.

 

[ownedsubgal]

And by the way, Osg, to refresh your memory here's my comment from yesterday.

So you can take your coast-to-coast misrepresentation of my comments, and shove it right up your ass.

JMohegan, you simply don't and won't get it, this discussion was futile from the start. btw, re: your re-posted quote: it is a pattern of yours to include one sentence acknowledging the "exceptions" to whatever claims or statements you make, usually tossed in at the end. these p.c. disclaimers do not change the tenor of your overall postings or the meaning behind your statements, and often simply cause further insult. i learned to disregard them long ago.

clearly you have some sort of an issue with me, given your desire to shove something up my bum, but i do not share your venomous attitude. i am frankly just incredibly tired of all this.

 

[JMohegan]

FWIW, I am completely non offended by *eyeroll* "white people." I'll never *experience* a world of people not getting it on a daily basis to that extent, but I believe what people say about their reality.

The reality of racism in America is actually the essence of what Reid himself referenced, in saying privately that the US would be “ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama – a light-skinned African American with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.”

Phraseology aside, the essence of his statement was, in my view, legitimate commentary on the white American electorate taken as a whole. In a perfect world, a candidate with good character, experience, and solid ideas would be a strong contender, irrespective of appearance and vernacular. But we, as a society, have not yet reached that point.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I have never heard a black person in my immediate vicinity say "he finna go work." He's fixin' to go to work maybe, which I've also heard from rural white minnesotans, but never from locally born white people in NYC.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying that the findings which view it as a generality rather than a locality issue are creepin' me out - there are so many variances in any two people's speech because we're more mobile than we used to be, we move around all the time picking up and dropping as we go.

you are not the only one creeped out, but i am not surprised either.

of course there are regional accents and speech patterns, variances which may differ considerably even between two counties within the same state. it's part of the beauty of human language, and something to be cherished. but it is not a racial thing...blacks and whites in my rural hometown in Virginia share a certain drawl and slang, and my Master finds the everyday speech of either nearly incomprehensible to his Maryland coastal ears. there simply is no universal "african-american vernacular."

 

[JMohegan]

JMohegan, you simply don't and won't get it, this discussion was futile from the start. btw, re: your re-posted quote: it is a pattern of yours to include one sentence acknowledging the "exceptions" to whatever claims or statements you make, usually tossed in at the end. these p.c. disclaimers do not change the tenor of your overall postings or the meaning behind your statements, and often simply cause further insult. i learned to disregard them long ago.

clearly you have some sort of an issue with me, given your desire to shove something up my bum, but i do not share your venomous attitude. i am frankly just incredibly tired of all this.

I have an issue with people who flat out insult me and then claim they were the ones victimized by the conversation, yes.

But great news, osg! I am heading out of town for the long weekend. Best wishes to all for a good one.

 

[intothewoods]

The reality of racism in America is actually the essence of what Reid himself referenced, in saying privately that the US would be “ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama – a light-skinned African American with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.”

Phraseology aside, the essence of his statement was, in my view, legitimate commentary on the white American electorate taken as a whole. In a perfect world, a candidate with good character, experience, and solid ideas would be a strong contender, irrespective of appearance and vernacular. But we, as a society, have not yet reached that point.

That reminds me of Gwen Ifill's comments.

On NBC's "Today" show Monday, Matt Lauer asked PBS' Gwen Ifill this question: "Isn't Harry Reid implying that a dark-skinned African American who speaks in a way that some would consider more stereotypical would not be electable?"

Ifill's response? Well, yes. Because it's true.

"There is actual political science that backs that up," said Ifill, who is black. "I don't know that Harry Reid has read it, and what Harry Reid said was certainly impolitic, at least, but there is evidence to support that people – whether it is a matter of voting for a white candidate or voting for a black candidate – if a person is very much different than who they are, or what they perceive the mainstream to be, they are less likely to vote for that person."

Blog post about her appearance here.

 

[Netzach]

you are not the only one creeped out, but i am not surprised either.

of course there are regional accents and speech patterns, variances which may differ considerably even between two counties within the same state. it's part of the beauty of human language, and something to be cherished. but it is not a racial thing...blacks and whites in my rural hometown in Virginia share a certain drawl and slang, and my Master finds the everyday speech of either nearly incomprehensible to his Maryland coastal ears. there simply is no universal "african-american vernacular."

Do you think this kind of, forgive the phrase, "blackwashed" one-size-fits approach to the linguisitcs in this case, but not in the case of rural West Virginian whites versus rural Alabaman whites is maybe due to it being such an explosive hot button though? I mean the fact that the "ebonics" controversy blew up like a nuke, so maybe linguists don't want to go near it?

I do think that speech patterns are worth study, and that vernaculars are worth respect, but I also wonder how much of "black vernacular" is mainly southern in sensibility carried northward and then reinvented with time? Not as many white people in NYC or Chicago or most northern cities share a south-to-north trajectory in their family history, so the language seems more exotic than it actually might be? Like if there were huge contingents of whites with common southern roots all over the place in the same cities, living in proximity through various de-facto forms of segregation, might they not sound very similar as what these linguists are pinpointing as black-specific? It's an interesting thought.

 

[Netzach]

It's true I don't remember the Carter election as well, and I know he took a lot of shit for being southern and sounding it. But I still don't think you'd hear "wow, and he doesn't have that god awful fake texas hick accent" from people on the Republican side of an election.

I'd never argue that the electorate would vote for someone who didn't "clean up well" whatever that means in ANY context, including being able to use standardized english - when white candidates use standard english no one notices. When black candidates do it's like, wow, and he can do that! Jesse Jackson was a referendum on what happens when white people can't sufficiently relate to you as a presidential candidate, though I *really* think that's going to change and change huge in my lifetime.

I think Gwen Ifill and Harry Reid *are* in a sense, right. The problem with it, as I'm getting my head around this, is that it's an "oh wow"

Like, no shit, if you're running for president you need to notice that you have to be TV friendly. Everyone remembers Nixon.

 

[WriterDom]

Obama is half white and raised by whites. Why wouldn't he talk that way?

 

[Netzach]

Obama is half white and raised by whites. Why wouldn't he talk that way?

Absolutely. My gf was similarly raised by her Jewish mom in the absence of her Afro- Puerto Rican dad. And people were completely stumped by her and made all kinds of moronic assumptions.

 

[Sayyid]

Late, but I thought Obama already forgave him and so it's a non-issue.

Really I don't see what the hubbub was about, aside from the outdated and vaguely racist term "Negro." It's no worse than any gaffe Joe Biden's ever made.

I think all kids, black, white, brow, blue, whatever should be taught standard English.

Of course - but it doesn't hurt to teach their vernacular in addition either. Children are not in danger of failing to learn standard English if we do so; it's all around them.