#metoo

[KimGordon67]

I was referring to the post that I've re-read and only now realize I interpreted so completely ass-backwards that I can't actually understand the logic I was using in those responses. I might have been having a small delusion, just disregard it. I get what you meant now.

So far I've actually tried to ignore the "rape culture" thing because I have no idea what you mean by it.
I'm not actually denying the existence of anything you've said so far. I know there are areas where social progress has stagnated and act as hold-outs for outdated concepts of abuse, or that there are still mechanism men can exploit to harass and abuse women, or that there is sometimes a lack of proper awareness of consent, etc etc. My problem is with the frequency you seem to be saying these things occur at. When you say 'rape culture' that takes it to an extreme in that what I'm hearing is a claim that there is rampant society-wide tolerance or permissiveness of sexual abuse, specifically rape and not unwanted attention, when, while not refusing to acknowledge that does exist to a degree, our cultural zeitgeist as a whole blatantly and demonstrably doesn't contain that. We live in the single most zealously (rightly so) anti-abuse culture in the world.

That's sort of why I was so miffed at that tumblr post which implied the existence of such a reality where enough men care so little about sexual abuse that it could be applied as a blanket statement similar to "men like war games". How can I be expected to not be annoyed by that? Just to be clear; I don't think all I just said is what you believe but its the framework which my mind is building based on the language.

Ah - ok. I'm on a phone, so can't write as well as I'd like. 'Rape culture' is a position that suggests that, while actual sexual assault is seldom condoned, the wider culture supports a range of discourses that, to varying degrees, support it's continued existence. The notion that men have an uncontrollable sex drive is one of them, but there's many others.

Sexual assault isn't an isolated act. It's on a continuum of behaviours that revolve around assumptions about men, women, and sexuality. Cat calling obviously isn't rape, but it's on the continuum, as is demonstrated by the fact that if you're aat called in an isolated, etc place, your first thought isn't 'how flattering', but 'is this going to turn into something?' (Correct md if I'm wrong other women, but that's been my experience.)

 

[KimGordon67]

Ah - ok. I'm on a phone, so can't write as well as I'd like. 'Rape culture' is a position that suggests that, while actual sexual assault is seldom condoned, the wider culture supports a range of discourses that, to varying degrees, support it's continued existence. The notion that men have an uncontrollable sex drive is one of them, but there's many others.

Sexual assault isn't an isolated act. It's on a continuum of behaviours that revolve around assumptions about men, women, and sexuality. Cat calling obviously isn't rape, but it's on the continuum, as is demonstrated by the fact that if you're aat called in an isolated, etc place, your first thought isn't 'how flattering', but 'is this going to turn into something?' (Correct md if I'm wrong other women, but that's been my experience.)

Sorry - that all sounds quite lecturing. Not intentionally.

 

[Angedesoleil]

I was referring to the post that I've re-read and only now realize I interpreted so completely ass-backwards that I can't actually understand the logic I was using in those responses. I might have been having a small delusion, just disregard it. I get what you meant now.

[/Qoute]

Respect earned.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Ah - ok. I'm on a phone, so can't write as well as I'd like. 'Rape culture' is a position that suggests that, while actual sexual assault is seldom condoned, the wider culture supports a range of discourses that, to varying degrees, support it's continued existence. The notion that men have an uncontrollable sex drive is one of them, but there's many others.

Sexual assault isn't an isolated act. It's on a continuum of behaviours that revolve around assumptions about men, women, and sexuality.

Expanding a little on this:

"Rape culture" isn't, by and large, about guys saying "you totally should go around raping women". Not that that never happens, but that's the very very tip of the iceberg.

Below the waterline, the bulk of the iceberg is stuff that's so pervasive and so ubiquitous that a lot of people never stop to question it, maybe don't even notice it...

Imagine a big city where everybody just takes it for granted that the sky is yellow-brown and half the population has respiratory problems and most people die around sixty, because that's the way it's always been for them. It doesn't occur to them that maybe it doesn't need to be this way, and if you try to tell them that it could be different, they'll laugh you down. What sort of lunatic thinks the sky should be blue? Why is this extremist arguing that lung cancer is caused by all our lovely factories, when we know that it's just normal that 20% of the population ends up dying of lung cancer, because that's how it was twenty years ago and fifty years ago?

I mean, seriously, have you seen how small a smoke particle is? It's absurd to think that something so tiny could noticeably affect a person's health, right?

That's how I think of rape culture. Much of it is about tiny little things that are trivial when considered individually. But put them together, over a lifetime, and you have enough to do some very serious damage. Unfortunately, recognising the problem means dealing with uncomfortable thoughts (have I been contributing to this? Will I have to sacrifice something if I'm serious about helping fix it?) and it's hard to get people out of their comfort zones.

So, some of those tiny little things.

Let's start in childhood. My daughter doesn't want to kiss Grandpa, but I tell her she has to, because that's just How Family Works and you have to be nice to your grandpa.

Lesson learned: you don't have exclusive rights over your body. Somebody older and more powerful has the right to touch you in ways that make you uncomfortable, without needing to provide any justification beyond "manners".

(A few years later, her uncle tries to kiss her, and more, when I'm not around. How does she understand that she has the right to say no to this, and that I'll back her up, when she didn't have the right to say no to grandpa?)

(And, yeah, there are times when you HAVE to override a kid's bodily autonomy; sometimes you just HAVE to give the kid their vaccinations or give them a bath, no matter how much they protest. But kissing Grandpa isn't one of those times.)

So, my kids are getting older and they're watching movies. An awful lot of those movies have plots that look like this:

MAN: does something heroic.
WOMAN: falls in love with guy.
THE END.

Watch enough of these, and my kids start learning that a woman is a man's reward for good deeds. If a man works hard enough and well enough, he'll end up with the woman he wants.

There's precious little acknowledgement that a woman has the right to say no for any reason she likes, or no reason at all. And if she does say no... romantic "heroes" aren't the guys who accept that no and leave her alone. We teach boys that you gotta keep trying, stand outside her window with a boom box making a public spectacle, whatever it takes until you win her over.

Guy wants a thing that a woman doesn't want. Guy persists. Woman gives him the thing that he wants. There are countless movies that fit that pattern; I'm having a lot of difficulty thinking of even one that's about a guy who learns to accept a woman's "no".

Yeah, we teach boys that "rape is bad". But by and large we don't challenge them to think about what rape is, so we end up with bullshit like this:

Most subjects in these studies freely acknowledge nonconsensual sex — but that does not mean they consider it real rape. Researchers encounter this contradiction again and again.

Asked “if they had penetrated against their consent,” said Dr. Koss, the subject will say yes. Asked if he did “something like rape,” the answer is almost always no.

Studies of incarcerated rapists — even men who admit to keeping sex slaves in conflict zones — find a similar disconnect. It’s not that they deny sexual assault happens; it’s just that the crime is committed by the monster over there.

I can't dig up a cite right now (on the road, bad internet) but I've seen some of those studies previously, and the discrepancy between "willing to rape" and "willing to fuck a woman against her will" was in the double digits. That's how fucked up men are about even understanding what rape is. We tell them that rapists are monsters, and the reaction is: well, I'm not a monster and my friend's not a monster, ergo, whatever we might do isn't rape.

(Then these men get offended by the idea that anti-rape programs might be directed at them, instead of Those Bad Guys Over There. Somehow these guys don't seem to be nearly so offended by people who claim that men are hormone-crazed lustmonsters, incapable of self-control, and we just have to design our society around that.)

(And then, through jokes, we teach them that rape is funny and acceptable and even justice, when it happens in prison, to somebody we dislike.)

I have to leave this here for now; I'm on the road and don't have time to get into all the fucked-up stuff in music, or stuff like J****n P******n's call for redistribution of women (once again rationalised by that hormone-crazed lustmonster argument, seriously dudes, how are you not offended by that?) Or how when some guy goes on a murder spree, so-called "journalists" love to blame it on some woman who jilted him. But there's some material to start with.

 

[Angedesoleil]

To Stag of Oberon;
I'm extremely sorry for what you went through, and more so for the lack of justice you faced. I do personally acknowledge that if it is hard for women to report abuse, it is harder still for a man to. I also agree that it would be hard to find true statistics on both genders. I don't think anyone would look sideways at a man in this day and age joining the #metoo movement and saying it happened to them. My Sir among them. *edited out* This affects him negatively to this day. I'd venture to say that it affects him far worse than the abuse I faced affects me. I believe the cause of that is in part the deep seated belief that he will never and would never should it happen again, get justice so he must protect himself. Where I grew out of sleeping under a mountain of pillows with my back to my headboard so I could see the door and window of a room, he has not. *edited out*
While this is anecdotal evidence only; the point is, yes, as much as rape culture is a thing against women, there is a culture that very much broadcasts and perpetuates the concept to men and boys that " it can't happen to you, it doesn't happen to you. If it foes happen to you it'd better have been a man that did it. If a woman did either you didn't actually not want it ( double negative intended) or you better shut up about it because no one is going to help you or believe you."
As much as rape culture needs to change, so does that.

Arguing over who has it worse, or who *bad thing happens to more* is a losing game for all. All I can personally do is tell you: thank you for speaking up. I'm sorry it happened to you. I believe you. I care. I hope you are healing and continue to heal. You have every right to be part of this conversation, and if I were in your shoes I'd be frustrated and angry.

I tried to send this to your inbox as well as I really didn't want to post some of this on open boards, but your PMs are closed. As my Sir has posted about his life experiences it isn't secret, but I still dislike "telling someone else's story". Necessary evil in this case.

 

[Angedesoleil]

Thank you.

And given that it is his story, I would encourage you to remove it promptly unless you had explicit permission to share it publicly.

There was a time that discussing my experience publicly, even here, presented a very real threat to my liberty, let alone my mental health.

As for my inbox; I find I have to keep it locked to prevent compulsive checking. In dark seasons, the notion that no one PMs me for months at a time can be fuel for a self destructive spiral.

Thank you, I would never have done had I not been given permission to discuss so long as his identity remains unknown. He is not on this forum ( or anything else lifestyle related), or I'm sure he'd have chimed in.

My reluctance to speak someone else's story comes from my own. It would drive me batty that my mom would discuss my own abuse with people ( friends, teachers, church friends) I remember being 12 and finally losing it and telling her " my story. My life. Mine to tell or not!"

I can understand your logic for closing your PMs though you owed no explanation. I'm glad you are taking care of you.

*peace

 

[Farawyn]

Expanding a little on this:

"Rape culture" isn't, by and large, about guys saying "you totally should go around raping women". Not that that never happens, but that's the very very tip of the iceberg.

Below the waterline, the bulk of the iceberg is stuff that's so pervasive and so ubiquitous that a lot of people never stop to question it, maybe don't even notice it...

Imagine a big city where everybody just takes it for granted that the sky is yellow-brown and half the population has respiratory problems and most people die around sixty, because that's the way it's always been for them. It doesn't occur to them that maybe it doesn't need to be this way, and if you try to tell them that it could be different, they'll laugh you down. What sort of lunatic thinks the sky should be blue? Why is this extremist arguing that lung cancer is caused by all our lovely factories, when we know that it's just normal that 20% of the population ends up dying of lung cancer, because that's how it was twenty years ago and fifty years ago?

I mean, seriously, have you seen how small a smoke particle is? It's absurd to think that something so tiny could noticeably affect a person's health, right?

That's how I think of rape culture. Much of it is about tiny little things that are trivial when considered individually. But put them together, over a lifetime, and you have enough to do some very serious damage. Unfortunately, recognising the problem means dealing with uncomfortable thoughts (have I been contributing to this? Will I have to sacrifice something if I'm serious about helping fix it?) and it's hard to get people out of their comfort zones.

So, some of those tiny little things.

Let's start in childhood. My daughter doesn't want to kiss Grandpa, but I tell her she has to, because that's just How Family Works and you have to be nice to your grandpa.

Lesson learned: you don't have exclusive rights over your body. Somebody older and more powerful has the right to touch you in ways that make you uncomfortable, without needing to provide any justification beyond "manners".

(A few years later, her uncle tries to kiss her, and more, when I'm not around. How does she understand that she has the right to say no to this, and that I'll back her up, when she didn't have the right to say no to grandpa?)

(And, yeah, there are times when you HAVE to override a kid's bodily autonomy; sometimes you just HAVE to give the kid their vaccinations or give them a bath, no matter how much they protest. But kissing Grandpa isn't one of those times.)

So, my kids are getting older and they're watching movies. An awful lot of those movies have plots that look like this:

MAN: does something heroic.
WOMAN: falls in love with guy.
THE END.

Watch enough of these, and my kids start learning that a woman is a man's reward for good deeds. If a man works hard enough and well enough, he'll end up with the woman he wants.

There's precious little acknowledgement that a woman has the right to say no for any reason she likes, or no reason at all. And if she does say no... romantic "heroes" aren't the guys who accept that no and leave her alone. We teach boys that you gotta keep trying, stand outside her window with a boom box making a public spectacle, whatever it takes until you win her over.

Guy wants a thing that a woman doesn't want. Guy persists. Woman gives him the thing that he wants. There are countless movies that fit that pattern; I'm having a lot of difficulty thinking of even one that's about a guy who learns to accept a woman's "no".

Yeah, we teach boys that "rape is bad". But by and large we don't challenge them to think about what rape is, so we end up with bullshit like this:

Most subjects in these studies freely acknowledge nonconsensual sex — but that does not mean they consider it real rape. Researchers encounter this contradiction again and again.

Asked “if they had penetrated against their consent,” said Dr. Koss, the subject will say yes. Asked if he did “something like rape,” the answer is almost always no.

Studies of incarcerated rapists — even men who admit to keeping sex slaves in conflict zones — find a similar disconnect. It’s not that they deny sexual assault happens; it’s just that the crime is committed by the monster over there.

I can't dig up a cite right now (on the road, bad internet) but I've seen some of those studies previously, and the discrepancy between "willing to rape" and "willing to fuck a woman against her will" was in the double digits. That's how fucked up men are about even understanding what rape is. We tell them that rapists are monsters, and the reaction is: well, I'm not a monster and my friend's not a monster, ergo, whatever we might do isn't rape.

(Then these men get offended by the idea that anti-rape programs might be directed at them, instead of Those Bad Guys Over There. Somehow these guys don't seem to be nearly so offended by people who claim that men are hormone-crazed lustmonsters, incapable of self-control, and we just have to design our society around that.)

(And then, through jokes, we teach them that rape is funny and acceptable and even justice, when it happens in prison, to somebody we dislike.)

I have to leave this here for now; I'm on the road and don't have time to get into all the fucked-up stuff in music, or stuff like J****n P******n's call for redistribution of women (once again rationalised by that hormone-crazed lustmonster argument, seriously dudes, how are you not offended by that?) Or how when some guy goes on a murder spree, so-called "journalists" love to blame it on some woman who jilted him. But there's some material to start with.

You’re always so concise. Thank you for this. I love reading your posts.

 

[base10]

This is absolutely heartbreaking to read. Every time I think I can wrap my head around what you ladies deal with on a daily basis, I find there are 10 more levels down of horrible shit. Heartbreaking.

I thank you for being so honest and open about some of the most painful moments in your life. The details are what I hope causes people to think (it causes me to think).

I've certainly had moments I'm not proud of with the opposite sex, and these stories have made me change behaviors. How some people can cause the level of harm related to rape and assault, we have some serious problems with the respect people have for human beings, and how we are raising children.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I didn't see Bramblethorn's post before my own. He had good points in general, & I absolutely agree with the bodily autonomy of children.

One part upsettingly stuck with me though; Dr. Koss is part of the problem I mentioned, & has been quoted claiming that non-consensual penetrative sex with women is "inappropriate to call rape" if the victim was a male.

Ugh. Thanks very much for letting me know; I utterly reject that statement by Koss about male victims, I wasn't aware of it, and if I had known about it I would've looked for a different example to illustrate my point. I can see why that would've been upsetting to you and I apologise for causing you distress. Definitely not my intention.

The context of this thread has mostly been male sexual violence against women, and that's what I was thinking about when I wrote my previous post. You're absolutely right that there is also a massive problem with our culture around sexual violence against men, and I should've given that more than the single sentence that I gave it.

 

[Nezhul]

Some time ago I saw a nearly identical study about the rephrasing of rape to 'non-consensual sex.' Not if men committed it, but if they had experienced it. I remember that statistic precisely because it was so jaw dropping; from 10% admitting to having been raped to 66+% (I recall rounding it down to two thirds) of the male college students poled admitted that they had experienced sex with a woman after telling her no, or woken up in a women's bed after rejecting her, with no memory of how they got there.

...."Loosen up dude, have another drink"...

Becomes nearly as insidious as "she's slapping him in public? He must deserve it".

I don't see rape culture as a gendered issue. I see it as a human issue.

What Stag of Oberon says is exactly what I've been telling y'all for 5 pages. But I was Wrong because I'm a man. You've poured eight buckets of shit on be just for arguing that men have problems too.

Now she comes to a thread and says how men can be victims too and how you can't say that women is the majority suffering abuse - and none of you DARES question it openly. Kim simply stitched her foul mouth and fell silent.

Such great unprejudiced people you are guys.
I hope you feel at least a little bit shitty about how double-standart you are.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

What Stag of Oberon says is exactly what I've been telling y'all for 5 pages. But I was Wrong because I'm a man. You've poured eight buckets of shit on be just for arguing that men have problems too.

Now she comes to a thread and says how men can be victims too and how you can't say that women is the majority suffering abuse - and none of you DARES question it openly. Kim simply stitched her foul mouth and fell silent.

Such great unprejudiced people you are guys.
I hope you feel at least a little bit shitty about how double-standart you are.

Stag is a guy. Nice confirmation bias, though. Reactions to your post has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with what you said and how you said it.

 

[Nezhul]

Stag is a guy. Nice confirmation bias, though. Reactions to your post has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with what you said and how you said it.

He's a guy - then I was wrong to assume. It still doesn't really change my point, does it?

Yes, it had do do with WHAT I said.

It's precisely the point that I said the same thing as Stag did. But because I happened to not prelude it with being a rape victim - I am automatically wrong.

When I said that not only women suffer from sexual assault - people like Kim ana Farawin only laugh at and mock it.
When Stag says it - no one dares to object.

It's not because of the form. It had nothing to do with HOW or WHAT I said. I had everything to do with me being (thankfully) an unmolested male who dared to say that woman's problems are not that much grater than male's.

That's the truth of it. It's the WHAT in conjunction with WHO that you can't tolerate. Not the HOW. A female could come here and said things I did - and Kim would have nothing to say to that. Stag came and said almost word-to-word the things that I did - and you have nothing to say to that. In fact, there were cases before when my opinion was supported by another female and the girls who argued before preferred to just ignore her. They couldn't argue, so they concentrated on me.

The problem of this particular forum is that it has like 10 very vocal members who represent roughly the same outlook on life. Whenever anyone says something differently - they band together.
How many fleeting new members have been here and then disappeared in the span of the last 5 years? Hm? A lot. People come here, they try to communicate, they hit the wall of opinionated females, and then they shut up and stop posting. Just look at this thread even. One says something - two more quote it and say "This ". Not adding anything but the volume to the shout. The entire strategy of the conversation is to shout the offending opinion down by saying "You are wrong." "This. " repeatedly.
In each thread it's the same faces and the same nicknames who share their very defined, unbending and final opinions, often being mean and judgmental to newcomers..
Will you argue?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Wow.

I guess I've come to have very low expectations for topics like this. I've come to accept that I'm never going to change any ones mind or tone, and tend toward despondency when contemplating the purpose of addressing such heavy subjects at all.

The internet sucks sometimes.

Thank you for reminding how awesome our little corner of it can be.

FWIW - I vaguely remember that we've argued in the past, but I don't recall what it was about, and it certainly wasn't anything that left lasting animus on my part. I think I just chalked it up to some incompatibility in our discussion styles. I'm not a very empathic person, except when I make a conscious effort to apply it in a particular direction (which requires recognising the need) so I do tread on toes sometimes.

Honestly, if I could get one message through to people about the "rape culture" discussion, it'd be that it's not about dividing the world into Good People and Bad People. It's about identifying good and bad behaviours, understanding that even the best of us pick up all sorts of toxic crap along the way, and evaluating and improving our own behaviour. Part of that is being willing to say "whoops, I done fucked up, next time I'll try to do better".

Not that I'm particularly good at that bit, but I'm trying

I really do feel that the subject of suppression of sexual agency loses no gravity by including all victims.

Or at least, in a perfect world; it shouldn't.

Agreed. I think there are gendered differences in how rape culture manifests, and sometimes it's worth examining those differences for what they tell us about causes, but that's definitely not the same as saying that one group of victims is more important than another.

Stag is a guy. Nice confirmation bias, though. Reactions to your post has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with what you said and how you said it.

*chortle*

I put Nezhul on ignore a long time ago. This isn't exactly making me regret that decision.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

I am continually amazed at the ability of people to see only what they want to see.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Wow.

I guess I've come to have very low expectations for topics like this. I've come to accept that I'm never going to change any ones mind or tone, and tend toward despondency when contemplating the purpose of addressing such heavy subjects at all.

The internet sucks sometimes.

Thank you for reminding how awesome our little corner of it can be.

Our little corner is awesome. I have been meaning to thank you for your post. It’s been on my mind since I first read it.

I really do feel that the subject of suppression of sexual agency loses no gravity by including all victims.

Or at least, in a perfect world; it shouldn't.

I do agree and appreciate your perspective. I’m just beyond tired of people demanding that rape culture is a myth. And as often as women are doubted and accused of false reports or exaggeration, I do understand that it’s even harder for men to report and often worse for them when they do report. At least women don’t have to defend the idea that we can be raped.

 

[Nezhul]

I’m just beyond tired of people demanding that rape culture is a myth.

In this thread, no one doubted it. Not me, not Blue, not anyone else. But you can't put BLAME for crimes or for jerks being jerks on all men just based on gender.

I am continually amazed at the ability of people to see only what they want to see.

Sigh. Right back at ya.

At least my point of view is balanced, because it acknowledges the problems of both men and women. I just don't agree that the majority of women suffer abuse in quantities that men don't at the same time. 'Tis true that women suffer more sexual assaults in general, but thankfully, it is still a minority of women who suffer more abuse than an average man or woman does - then an average HUMAN does. Read this phrase carefully please to really understand what it means.
It is wrong to deal in absolutes when you study a sub-group. You need to view women as part of a whole, not as a separate entity the majority of which happens to have some bad experience (no matter how severe) in their life, and than put this statement in perspective in a rape talk.
This is my point. But it's obviously not true because an entirety of half a dozen of you say it isn't.

 

[Nezhul]

No. Its Not true. It's not proven. The only truth that's clear there is that men are humiliated for reporting and so it's grossly under reported. No comparison is valid.

Try to prove this to Kim or Farawyn.
Or just read what they had to say about this a few pages earlier.

Regardless, I will say the same to you as I have said to them. It's wrong to lump up things like rape with molesting or being kicked in the groin or sexually teased by a girl for fun.

My point exactly is that men suffer the same number of sexual assaults as women up to some margin. But I don't think that anyone can argue that more rapes are committed against women, even if you take in account the issue of crimes being unreported (which by the way it's said that 90% of rapes go unreported).
Male suffer different types of assault that can not be compared one-to-one with rape. For example, I would consider financial exploitation as a type of assault that is just as gender-prevalent for males as rape is for women. There are many other problems that male face, both as sexual abuse that is being brushed off by society or shamed for, and as simple gender-specific problems that mostly males face.

My point is - it all equals out. It's wrong to talk about "rape culture" as something that only women face and that men should be shamed for. Anyone who says it is either hypocrite or completely one-dimentional and blind.
It's a society problem, not female problem.

Again, if you take specifically rape - then yes, I will agree with you that it's something that women experience much more than men. But then you can't say that MOST women experience it. Thankfully, it's not the case. Even in US where rape numbers are quite high among the developed countries, the stat's say that 1 in 6 women experiences attempted or completed rape in her life. Which is still horrible, but it's FAR from being "the majority of women".
If you take sexual assault in general - then no, it isn't something that women experience exclusively. It's something that men face just the same. You could say that most women experience sexual assault in their lives - but you can't imply that men don't or have it much easier.
Which is exactly what I've been arguing against all this time.

 

[_Necrosomantic_]

https://assets.saatchiart.com/saatchi/961623/art/3659823/2729708-MMOTFDLY-7.jpghttps://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/sexual-assault-aftermath-art-project-touch-impact-emma-krenzer-14.jpg

No one is saying that men ( particularly boys ) dont suffer sexual abuse or rape, and no one is claiming it’s any more or less horrific, based on which gender it’s commited against. But to compare getting kicked in the balls on a playground with a girl ( or even a grown woman for that matter ) getting groped by her boss, is ignorant. It’s not the same league. It’s not the same game. It’s not even the same fucking sport. And until the very loud and obvious gender bias that has existed since as long as anyone can remember is balanced out, there is no real comparison. Men are not oppressed in this country. Period. End of story. I don’t give a shit what chip on the shoulder you think you have that means the world owes you something and you take offense to sweeping statements about how easy guys have it. Fuck you, you selfish, pompous, straw man argument vomiting, borderline retarded, callow and flaccid little cowards. You’re not even remotely oppressed, and if you claim to be, you ARE part of the problem. Because this isn’t about you, try as you might to constantly make it about you.

Stag ( and this short paragraph is the only part of this statement I’m addressing to you ), I’m sorry for what happened to you and I’m not downplaying your trauma, you know I wouldn’t do that to you, this dumpster fire of a thread is hardly the place to have that discussion. But ( again ) that’s not what this is about. It’s not about the OP’s jackassy persecution complex. It’s not about whether or not men can be assaulted and dismissed or shamed into not speaking up too. It’s not about whatever horseshit Nezhul is spewing at anyone he thinks is listening.

Rape culture is not just about men acting entitled and disgusting. It’s about this general apathy and derision that perpetuates that type of behavior. It’s about saying something and reminding people about the difference between right and wrong, and the shame of needing reminded in the first place. This isn’t that hard to grasp. And yes, I’ll fucking say it. It you tolerate this kind of behavior in your presence, laugh when friends or family make comments or jokes, and don’t stand up to this kind of loud, disrespectful, and demeaning misogynistic garbage. You ARE part of the problem. And regardless of how much you tell yourself that you’re not as bad as those who commit rape or sexual harassment, blah blah fucking blah, you’re still part of the problem.

You can roll a turd in pink sugar all you want, but at the end of the day, it’s still a piece of shit.

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/2018-national-sexual-abuse-report/

 

[Nezhul]

Stag ( and this short paragraph is the only part of this statement I’m addressing to you )

Ahem. You'ver just shat upon everything he had said in the paragraph above. You can't just say that it wasn't adressed to him after literally smearing dirt all over the position he stands for.

There comes a time when "protecting women" (or any other group be it black people or gay or whoever else) goes so far that it steps into waters of giving carte blanche to everything they do or say and automatically taking their side. This is the problem. The healthy approach is to take neither side, be prejudiced towards neither gender and favor neither gender. When you start giving favor to women because you think they deserve it by being oppressed - your goal fails in this very instant. Think about that.

Neither gender is more oppressed than the other currently.
There are jobs that women can't have. There are jobs that ONLY women can have.
There are opportunities closed to women. There are opportunities open ONLY to women.
There are certain dangers that women experience. There are certain freedoms and liberties given and allowed only to women and not to men.

It is not equal. It will never be equal. It SHOULD never be equal when it comes to genders, because we are not equal and don't have equal needs.
But god forbid, don't say that one gender has it worse than the other. That's just showing your insecurities and sucking up the cunts in hopes of coming along as "aww, that nice guy".

p.s. The images are expressive. They are MADE to be. That's their problem though - they are made to cause certain emotion and they do so effectively, but this is manipulating the observer. As any form of graphical propaganda, these images can not be used as any form of argument, because they are made to represent an intentionally skewed outlook on reality with aim of promoting certain ideas. This kind of art is made to cause you to think - not to be thrown as an argument into a discussion.

 

[Nezhul]

No. It doesn't "equal out". This also implies a tally. Until you've magically monitored all of society in some orwellian nightmare, no comparative statement is valid. So just stop with the blatant falsehoods. There is no "this group has it worse" here, any more than "it all balances". Both of those falsehoolds downplay the travesty to humanity. IT IS UNKNOWN. That is Part of the fucking horror of it.

I guess I didn't mean it like that. Sorry.
What I meant is to say exactly that no group has it worse, not that it becomes equal and thus cancels out kind of. Both groups have very severe problems, and both should be solved and discussed. The entire reason I got into this debate and persisted on staying in it is because I hate claims that one gender suffers greatly from another and that the other gender should take responsibility for it and basically fix the world, because all problems come from them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

(re: Nezhul's assertion that "90% of rapes go unreported")

And what bullshit magician made up that number? How did they know? did they somehow COUNT the UNREPORTED rapes!?

Pretty much, yes, they did.

The best practice for estimating this sort of thing is to do a scientifically-designed random sample survey. You select a large number of households from the region of interest, you send out interviewers who are experienced and trained in discussing sensitive topics, and they ask people about their experience of various crimes. (I used to know somebody who did that job. It's quite high up on the list of things you couldn't pay me to do.)

This collects a lot of data on crimes that weren't reported to the police. You can then use standard scientific polling methods to weight up that data to get estimates for the population of interest as a whole.

Here's an example: the Australian Personal Safety Survey. If you go to the "downloads" tab and select "prevalence of violence", you can get the resulting estimates.

PSS 2016 estimates that out of 9.37 million women over the age of 18, approximately 148,100 had been sexually assaulted in the previous 12 months, and 171,600 had experienced any kind of sexual violence. (Not sure what the definitional difference is there.)

For the same period, PSS estimates that approximately 62,700 males experienced sexual violence (caveat on that number: "estimate has a relative standard error of 25% to 50% and should be used with caution", so take that as a ballpark number rather than a precise estimate). They don't give a split between "sexual violence" and "sexual assault" for males - I'm not sure what the reason is for that, possibly not enough data to be confident of accuracy in finer splits. But it's probably reasonable to assume that most of those "sexual violence" cases are also "sexual assault", as they are for females.

The same agency also compiles data on crimes reported to the police. For the same period, there are 13,157 reports of sexual assault for females aged 15+, and 2208 for males aged 15+.

So, looking at the female stats: estimated 148k women who'd been sexually assaulted in the last 12 months, vs. 13k cases reported to police. In other words, around 91% of sexual assaults on women weren't reported to police.

The exact figure would probably be a bit higher than that 91%, for several reasons:

(a) the PSS figure is a count of women who'd been assaulted at least once, so the total number of assaults for that group would be slightly higher.
(b) the PSS stats are for women aged 18+, but police stats include ages 15-17, so the reports for 18+ would be somewhat lower.
(c) presumably not all women who'd been assaulted did in fact disclose that on PSS (though obviously the rate is much higher than the rate at which they report to police).

For males, the gap between PSS and police reports is even wider; police reports for sexual assault of 15+ are only about 3.5% of PSS estimates for sexual violence. The large standard error on the PSS count, and the distinction between "sexual violence" and "sexual assault", mean that there's a fair bit of uncertainty on that figure, but it seems very unlikely that this would bring it up higher than ~ 10%.

So, at least for the Australian stats, Nezhul's assertion that "90% of rapes go unreported" looks pretty reasonable and consistent with scientifically-produced estimates. If anything, the true ratio might be a little higher.

If anybody wants to go look up the corresponding stats for other countries, feel free; the relevant search terms will be something like "victims of crime survey $COUNTRYNAME" and "reported crime $COUNTRYNAME". If I recall correctly, the UK numbers weren't too dissimilar in terms of reported vs. best estimate.

Some caveats:

- Those ratios are for adults; PSS only covers 18+ and doesn't attempt to estimate numbers for assaults on minors. (Not sure why not, but I think there may be legal complications with collecting that data for minors.)
- The PSS numbers for sexual violence against males are about half that for females, but anybody who wants to draw conclusions about the true rates of assault on men vs. women should allow for the uncertainty in the male numbers and for the possibility that men are less (or more) likely than women to disclose to PSS.

 

[Nezhul]

It's not personal assertion BTW. It's the number that I've seen a lot when reading about rape stats. It's always at about 90% for pretty much every country that I looked up.

 

[Farawyn]

Stag, he’s not downplaying your abuse.

He’s saying that metoo is about women. Because it happens to every single one of us, in one form or another, day in and day out.
Not rape. Not just rape. But the catcalls, the looks, the put downs at work. Every day.
Men are sexually abused as well. My brother was. And it’s grossly under reported. And men are demasculinized for it.
But that is a different animal than metoo. It’s a different thread. Equal, but different.

The rest of his paragraph is directed at choads like Nezhul.

 

[Nezhul]

Ahem. Have you even noticed that this thread, originally and for the first several pages, was NOT about women? It was about false accusations. It was discussed in a rather measured and neutral way too.

read: Not female problem but a male problem.

Then you guys came and made it your own, mocking and brushing off male problems as insignificant compared to your grave female ones in the process. Crying in every post how much womenfolk suffers each day and how men are responsible for this. Shaming men for daring to question female accusations because obviously we only want to get laid. Shaming that our strive for sex apparently is more important to males than rape culture.
You even managed to attack and shame Blue who have always been very gentlemanly and let a lot of your bullshit slide or sided with you or excused himself politely if his opinion confronted yours in any way.
This hypocricy makes me sick.

 

[Farawyn]

Ahem. Have you even noticed that this thread, originally and for the first several pages, was NOT about women? It was about false accusations. It was discussed in a rather measured and neutral way too.

read: Not female problem but a male problem.

Then you guys came and made it your own, mocking and brushing off male problems as insignificant compared to your grave female ones in the process. Crying in every post how much womenfolk suffers each day and how men are responsible for this. Shaming men for daring to question female accusations because obviously we only want to get laid. Shaming that our strive for sex apparently is more important to males than rape culture.
You even managed to attack and shame Blue who have always been very gentlemanly and let a lot of your bullshit slide or sided with you or excused himself politely if his opinion confronted yours in any way.
This hypocricy makes me sick.

I didn’t read your post after the first sentence, incel.
The title of the thread is #metoo.