#metoo

[Blue]

https://78.media.tumblr.com/cb007e4c4751cac82c0aa06263ce4b01/tumblr_p9i7ovwsNt1xpjzweo1_540.jpg
Maybe this is all we're asking for. Maybe instead of spending 5 pages arguing about how it's not all men, maybe look at the men around you and next time someone says something awful actually call them on their bullshit.
Instead of thinking her skirt was awfully short, maybe think "Gee Bob is a fucking scumbag who can't keep his hands to himself" and say something about it.

Oh shut up you pseudo-victim attention getter. You expect any men to be open to anything you have to say after posting crap like this and acting like it somehow has any basis in reality??
Absolute total mind-bogglingly ridiculous nonsense.
If a woman were ever to be attacked in a public space like a crowded theatre every other man in the room would join in with literally killing whoever the perpetrator was and the whole of the internet would absolutely cheer in joy at the death of that rapist. Which is exactly why rape never happens in such places. You rely on the fact that this statement and anything even close to resembling it is not true to keep you safe from actual rapists!

Any shaming that any idiotic men do to women is nothing compared to how universally and how utterly rapists are hated, to ordinary men rapists are the second worst of the worst after child rapists, they're the absolute lowest status members of society. Men are not so horrendously callous that we are more put off by a woman having sex than a god damn RAPIST.

 

[LostGirlTink]

Oh shut up you pseudo-victim attention getter. You expect any men to be open to anything you have to say after posting crap like this and acting like it somehow has any basis in reality??
Absolute total mind-bogglingly ridiculous nonsense.
If a woman were ever to be attacked in a public space like a crowded theatre every other man in the room would join in with literally killing whoever the perpetrator was and the whole of the internet would absolutely cheer in joy at the death of that rapist. Which is exactly why rape never happens in such places. You rely on the fact that this statement and anything even close to resembling it is not true to keep you safe from actual rapists!

Any shaming that any idiotic men do to women is nothing compared to how universally and how utterly rapists are hated, to ordinary men rapists are the second worst of the worst after child rapists, they're the absolute lowest status members of society. Men are not so horrendously callous that we are more put off by a woman having sex than a god damn RAPIST.

Wow, name calling. Classy as fuck.

Rape never happens in such places are you serious?
Do you really believe that?

The last statement I just bolded, you would be surprised at how many people think exactly that way.

 

[Blue]

Wow, name calling. Classy as fuck.

Rape never happens in such places are you serious?
Do you really believe that?

The last statement I just bolded, you would be surprised at how many people think exactly that way.

Yeah I try to never name call because I know it's not classy and I do prefer genuine discussion but your blanket insult of men as being OK with rape to that degree was so stunningly detached and insulting that it made even my emotionally blunted mind a tad angry.

I believe rape happens everywhere and can potentially occur in places like that, even in public. It however does not happen where any nearby men are aware of it.

 

[LostGirlTink]

Yeah I try to never name call because I know it's not classy and I do prefer genuine discussion but your blanket insult of men as being OK with rape to that degree was so stunningly detached and insulting that it made my emotionally blunted mind a tad angry.

I believe rape happens everywhere and can potentially occur in places like that. It however does not happen where any nearby men are aware of it.

Sadly, that's untrue. It's changing yes, but it does happen and in the past it happened exceedingly frequently.
What you need to consider is that instead of listening you are too busy defending "all men"

Those that are posting about this know damn well that not every man is a rapist, but until every man is willing to turn around and look at the sketchy piece of shit making rape jokes or comments and call them out on it, we don't know who the good guy are.
I actually know LOTS of good men that looked the other way when people they knew did shitty things. They made excuses, they found a reason to look away, they ignored it or treated it as a joke.

And most of those good men have pretty judgmental views of women they would view as promiscuous. So I stand by the statement, which I didn't write.... but think makes a good point.

I'd like to point out that when I didn't agree with you, you called me a pseudo victim attention-getter. Which actually makes my point for me.
An actual rape victim.
Attention getter. Cause yeah, that's why we fucking talk about it, you malicious whiner.

I was <age removed to comply with board guidelines> when it started. So was I whore or did I just want attention?

And for the name calling? I'm going to tell you to fuck yourself.

 

[Blue]

What you need to consider is that instead of listening you are too busy defending "all men"

Those that are posting about this know damn well that not every man is a rapist, but until every man is willing to turn around and look at the sketchy piece of shit making rape jokes or comments and call them out on it, we don't know who the good guy are.
I actually know LOTS of good men that looked the other way when people they knew did shitty things. They made excuses, they found a reason to look away, they ignored it or treated it as a joke.

And most of those good men have pretty judgmental views of women they would view as promiscuous. So I stand by the statement, which I didn't write.... but think makes a good point.

Listen to what? Arguments of no substance that treat the entire male demographic as culpable for rapes they did not commit?
The issue here isn't whether or not men can be judging of promiscuous women. It's, for the men that are judgemental of promiscuous women, whether that judgement is more or less harsh for rapists than said women. That post you say you stand by implies the existence of a somewhat significant contingent of men who care less about rape than they do about women's sexual parters which you've just said men in your life fall into. So no, I'm not defending all men, I'm apparently defending those good men you know from your own bigotry.

I'd like to point out that when I didn't agree with you, you called me a pseudo victim attention-getter. Which actually makes my point for me.
An actual rape victim.
Attention getter. Cause yeah, that's why we fucking talk about you malicious whiner.

I was too young when it started. So was I whore or did I just want attention?

And for the name calling? I'm going to tell you to fuck yourself.

If that is true, I still think you've made a disgusting over-generalization of men, but apparently I was wrong in my implication that you were a pseudo-victim and I'm genuinely sorry about that as well as the name calling.

 

[KimGordon67]

No. I take absolutely 0% responsibility for rapes I didn't commit.
Your argument is exactly the same as if I were to say that men should be expected to take responsibility for muggings because it's unreasonable for me to have to take precautions to prevent myself being mugged, like not walking under highways alone at dusk. Obviously, other men don't bear any culpability whatsoever if some men do end up mugging me, but that's where what you're saying breaks from that train of logic and I don't understand why.
We live in a world where there exist people who will commit certain crimes regardless of how stigmatized or suppressed their activities are because we will never weed them out of existence, whether its rape or petty theft. Yes we can reduce the rates of rape and we should do so. But ultimately it is everybody's responsibility to take steps to prevent any crimes happening to us. What's the alternative?

I understand that rates of rape fluctuate based on location because cultural perceptions of sexual consent vary, but some men in the west aren't 'not getting the message' that rape is bad. The seriously dominant perception of rape that gets bombarded at us from every media organization literally every day now is that it's a qualitatively more severe form of evil. The men in the west who intentionally rape others know exactly why what they're doing is harmful but they do it anyway 'cause they've got serious mental issues.

Most women are raped by someone they know. Often someone they love. Do all those men have 'serious mental issues'?

Also, Google 'Steubenville'. Then come back and explain how 'every other man present would kill the perpetrator'.

And no, it's not the same as mugging. Rape isn't a crime that's happening to 'us'. It is predominantly perpetrated by men predominantly against women.

Instead of whining about awful things are for you, why not listen to what women actually say about what it's like to be a woman in this environment. I started getting groped on public transport when I was young because I had the gall to be an early developer. I was attacked when I was young because I had the gall to walk down an empty street. Later, I was raped because I had the gall to disagree with my boyfriend about something.
Don't presume you know what it's like to live in this culture as a woman.

 

[Blue]

Most women are raped by someone they know. Often someone they love. Do all those men have 'serious mental issues'?

Also, Google 'Steubenville'. Then come back and explain how 'every other man present would kill the perpetrator'.

I don't think they all have mental issues but my argument is partly that rapists are not as reflective of men as your arguments are implying. Due to the infrequency at which it occurs.

That Steubenville thing is crazy though so I'll definitely have a think on that.

And no, it's not the same as mugging. Rape isn't a crime that's happening to 'us'. It is predominantly perpetrated by men predominantly against women.

Instead of whining about awful things are for you, why not listen to what women actually say about what it's like to be a woman in this environment. I started getting groped on public transport when I was young because I had the gall to be an early developer. I was attacked when I was young because I had the gall to walk down an empty street. I was raped because I had the gall to disagree with my boyfriend about something.
Don't presume you know what it's like to live in this culture as a woman.

Ok so I'll try and summarize what I'm saying as best I can:
I know rape is a highly gendered issue, but my point is that you're saying men as a whole are failing in some way when it occurs and I don't see why you apply that standard to sexual assault and not other crimes that are also largely perpetrated by men.

I'm not presuming to know, I'm telling you how I perceive the world based on my experiences just like you are. Throwing personal experiences at me, however sympathetic, won't change it. I'm sorry.

*edit - I thought 'anecdotes' meant personal experiences but apparently it has the connotion of humor...
Sorry.

 

[Farawyn]

Tink and Kim, saying exactly what I feel, so well.
Brava.

But you know what? I’m so fucking sick of explaining this over and over to “not all men.”

 

[LostGirlTink]

Tink and Kim, saying exactly what I feel, so well.
Brava.

But you know what? I’m so fucking sick of explaining this over and over to “not all men.”

Right?

 

[Farawyn]

I don't think they all have mental issues but my argument is partly that rapists are not as reflective of men as your arguments are implying. Due to the infrequency at which it occurs.

That Steubenville thing is crazy though so I'll definitely have a think on that.


Ok so I'll try and summarize what I'm saying as best I can:
I know rape is a highly gendered issue, but my point is that you're saying men as a whole are failing in some way when it occurs and I don't see why you apply that standard to sexual assault and not other crimes that are also largely perpetrated by men.

I'm not presuming to know, I'm telling you how I perceive the world based on my experiences just like you are. Throwing personal experiences at me, however sympathetic, won't change it. I'm sorry.

*edit - I thought 'anecdotes' meant personal experiences but apparently it has the connotion of humor...
Sorry.

So, you don’t think there’s a “rape culture” that women face, day in and day out?

 

[snexxer]

Hmmm I came across this and wanted to add my opinion.

A friend said something the other day that made me revaluate their opinions.
He said a joke which was.
If a woman wants holding, hold her.
If a woman is sad, comfort her.
If a woman is unconscious drunk, go for anal.

I didn't laugh at this because in my opinion that's making light of rape.
Rape is not something that should ever be joked about, it is always a mans position to ensure that he has his partners consent. And that should be 100% consent.
If there is 1% doubt check. If you can't check stop.
Lack of a yes is no. Lack of no is no.

Just my opinion as a man.

 

[Farawyn]

Hmmm I came across this and wanted to add my opinion.

A friend said something the other day that made me revaluate their opinions.
He said a joke which was.
If a woman wants holding, hold her.
If a woman is sad, comfort her.
If a woman is unconscious drunk, go for anal.

I didn't laugh at this because in my opinion that's making light of rape.
Rape is not something that should ever be joked about, it is always a mans position to ensure that he has his partners consent. And that should be 100% consent.
If there is 1% doubt check. If you can't check stop.
Lack of a yes is no. Lack of no is no.

Just my opinion as a man.

But did you tell him he was a fucking slob for saying that?

 

[KimGordon67]

But did you tell him he was a fucking slob for saying that?

 

[LostGirlTink]

But did you tell him he was a fucking slob for saying that?

That's how we are going to get REAL change.
When a man says something like that and all his friends call him out on it and are willing to denounce the friendship over it.

 

[Farawyn]

That's how we are going to get REAL change.
When a man says something like that and all his friends call him out on it and are willing to denounce the friendship over it.

I’ve done that. To a female teacher friend, who should have known better and adopted a boys will be boys attitude. The situation in question was a brutal “hazing” of senior football players shoving pinecones up the asses of freshmen football players.
The freshmen told, and 2 boys lost scholarships.
She said “They ruined his ride (meaning free college)”
I said, “He RAPED them.”
Should been jailed.

Haven’t spoken to the bitch since. And I told her why.

 

[LostGirlTink]

I’ve done that. To a female teacher friend, who should have known better and adopted a boys will be boys attitude. The situation in question was a brutal “hazing” of senior football players shoving pinecones up the asses of freshmen football players.
The freshmen told, and 2 boys lost scholarships.
She said “They ruined his ride (meaning free college)”
I said, “He RAPED them.”
Should been jailed.

Haven’t spoken to the bitch since. And I told her why.

They should have been jailed, she should have been fired for her stance.
And good for you!

 

[Nezhul]

(a) You're young. Therefore I"m hazarding a guess that most of the female friends you have are young. They've still got a lot of life to go yet, so we can't actually say that they aren't going to ever be assaulted etc.

Go to hell, literally, for thoughts like that.

God, I hope you’re not a parent.

You have no idea what parent I would have made. You're just finding something awful to say to me because you are generally upset by how I reply to Kim.

But one thing for sure. I would never, NEVER sit down with my child and go something like "Boy, there's such thing as rape that bad guys do (explains what rape is to a 7-year-old boy). Don't ever do that."

Actually, yeah. Lots and lots of guys complain about exactly the things you're describing. And you might want to familiarize yourself with incel.

Well, not where I live. I've had this discussion maybe once or twice with other men, but it wasn't a complainy discussion - rather a world-measuring one.
Don't get me wrong, there are men of all sorts. I've seen men throw up a tantrum to their girlfriends, have a hysterics and running off, making her chase them exasperated - in a complete role reversal.
Doesn't mean that happens a hole lot though. The majority of men don't victimize their gender like Kim does - and actually the majority of women doesn't either. I was just making examples because in a discussion there was a complete one-sided view that women have it hard while men have zero problems in life and are stupid to boot.

By all means, I'm ok with rapists losing their reputations

Are you okay with decent, not guilty men losing their reputations, careers and subsequently having their lives ruined because of false accusations?
Because I'll break your bubble - some women lie too. Some women are scumbags just like the worst of men. And this happens.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/07b67b284c7876913393d83cfdf6bd08/tumblr_p9i7lgmGls1xpjzweo1_540.jpgThink about that.

They frequently put rapists, especially child rapists, in solitary or protective custody so that they don't have the same thing happen to them that they did to someone else.

This is an exagerration and overdramatization. And you know it.
Also the worst thing I fear about going to prison is not only losing several years of my life, but having a red flag in my history for the rest of my life, permanently closing many career paths and opportunities. Prison is a brand that can't be washed, and that's the scariest part about it. Not the other inmates.
In that regard, as much as it horrifies me, I would MUCH rather get raped than go to prison. Not that any of the two choices is something I would wish upon anyone.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/cb007e4c4751cac82c0aa06263ce4b01/tumblr_p9i7ovwsNt1xpjzweo1_540.jpg

Are you FUCKING kidding me?
Blue said it all so I won't repeat him.

But you know what? I’m so fucking sick of explaining this over and over to “not all men.”

Do you have a boyfriend/husband?
Do you hold him responsible for rapes?

 

[LostGirlTink]

Do you have a boyfriend/husband?
Do you hold him responsible for rapes?

I hold him responsible for being a decent man... and that means calling out people who do bad things.

And i wish someone had explained rape to me at an age before I experienced it, so that I could have had the words to tell someone.

And I’ve been explaining to MY son since he was old enough to interact with anyone what appropriate behavior is.

Funny how this younger generation seems to get it when so many grown men seem to be struggling with it.

 

[Nezhul]

I hold him responsible for being a decent man... and that means calling out people who do bad things.

Every man you are raguing with here is a decent one and WILL call out people on doing bad things.

Don't dodge the question.
Do you hold him personally responsible for rape comitted by other men because he is male himself?
He is part of "rape culture that women face every day", isn't he? Or is he an exception while we clearly aren't?

 

[LostGirlTink]

Every man you are raguing with here is a decent one and WILL call out people on doing bad things.

Don't dodge the question.
Do you hold him personally responsible for rape comitted by other men because he is male himself?
He is part of "rape culture that women face every day", isn't he? Or is he an exception while we clearly aren't?

I don’t hold YOU responsible for rape. Are you that obtuse, or are you being intentionally argumentative to be inflammatory?
I hold all of you responsible for your own actions and to recognize and do your part to put a stop to rape culture.
Instead of doing so, what you are doing is perpetuating it.

 

[Farawyn]

I don’t hold YOU responsible for rape. Are you that obtuse, or are you being intentionally argumentative to be inflammatory?
I hold all of you responsible for your own actions and to recognize and do your part to put a stop to rape culture.
Instead of doing so, what you are doing is perpetuating it.

Exactly.
As if you’ll change your answer ‘cause he bolded it.

 

[LostGirlTink]

Exactly.
As if you’ll change your answer ‘cause he bolded it.

LOL... my answer remains the same. Any man in my life, directly or peripherally is held to at least those minimum standards.

Call shit out.
Stand up for what's right.
Don't be a douche.
Be a good person.
Don't make inappropriate actions towards any woman.
Don't be a rapist.
Don't allow others to be rapists or perpetuate rape culture.

It's not even hard.
Any man close to me is held to even higher standards.

I wonder if any of these men have women in their lives that are important to them. Do they really NOT understand that this happens to nearly every woman?
Have they never asked?
Do they live in some strange bubble of Narnia?
I know exactly three women out of all of the women I've met in my 40 something years of life that have not been assaulted at some point in their lives.

Three.

 

[Nezhul]

I know exactly three women out of all of the women I've met in my 40 something years of life that have not been assaulted at some point in their lives.

No no no.
Define "Assaulted"

Were all of those women RAPED or escaped an attempted rape? And to be clear, let's not call an overenthusiastic teenage boy trying to pick you up and not knowing when to fuck off, or being too careless with his hands on a first date - an attempted rape.
Again, you CAN NOT group any form of assault with rape statistics and then go about saying how almost all women experience it.

I can actually say the same about men. Most men I know were assaulted or abused by women at some point in their lives. It's true. But it really does sound stupid when you say that, see? Because it's not specific enough and too vague. You are using those phrases in scope of specifically rape discussion.

Your lumping up rape with assault (and a broad definition of assault at that) makes everything you say after that look completely uncredible, even if your motivations are correct. You are hurting your cause by exaggeration.

 

[LostGirlTink]

No no no.
Define "Assaulted"

Were all of those women RAPED or escaped an attempted rape? And to be clear, let's not call an overenthusiastic teenage boy trying to pick you up and not knowing when to fuck off, or being too careless with his hands on a first date - an attempted rape.
Again, you CAN NOT group any form of assault with rape statistics and then go about saying how almost all women experience it.

I can actually say the same about men. Most men I know were assaulted or abused by women at some point in their lives. It's true. But it really does sound stupid when you say that, see? Because it's not specific enough and too vague. You are using those phrases in scope of specifically rape discussion.

Your lumping up rape with assault (and a broad definition of assault at that) makes everything you say after that look completely uncredible, even if your motivations are correct. You are hurting your goal by exaggeration.

Sexual assault.
Ie:
inappropriate touching, particularly by an authority figure (ie:teacher, coach, relative, family friend)
Molestation
Rape
Sodomy
Forced penetration
Forced oral
Groping against her will
Being forced to witness someone masturbating against their will
Forced madturbation


Pick one those

Which of those do you deem acceptable or does a penis have to enter a vagina for you to consider it “real rape”

3

The number didn’t change because I didn’t add the word sexual in front of assault, I foolishly assumed we were all having the same conversation.
It’s the same statement you just don’t want to believe it

 

[Farawyn]

No no no.
Define "Assaulted"

Were all of those women RAPED or escaped an attempted rape? And to be clear, let's not call an overenthusiastic teenage boy trying to pick you up and not knowing when to fuck off, or being too careless with his hands on a first date - an attempted rape.
Again, you CAN NOT group any form of assault with rape statistics and then go about saying how almost all women experience it.

I can actually say the same about men. Most men I know were assaulted or abused by women at some point in their lives. It's true. But it really does sound stupid when you say that, see? Because it's not specific enough and too vague. You are using those phrases in scope of specifically rape discussion.

Your lumping up rape with assault (and a broad definition of assault at that) makes everything you say after that look completely uncredible, even if your motivations are correct. You are hurting your cause by exaggeration.

I think you’re hurting your cause of ever getting a date with a REAL LIVE WOMAN.
You don’t know what you don’t know. So, be quiet, and listen and watch and learn.