Loving In Spite of Flaws... real or perceived

[paganangel]

I was young (18) and foolish, and I was in lust - which resulted in her getting pregnant and us getting married. I was in love with her, but I saw, even before she was pregnant, that our relationship was in trouble and I tried to breakup with her. Being easily swayed I let her talk me into staying together with her and the rest is history.

Eventually, even though I loved her - I could see that her emotional stability problems were just getting worse and worse, and that I wasn't going to be happy staying with her. We could have got counseling, and indeed she wanted to, but I was lazy, selfish and wanted to move on with my life - it was not my proudest moment.

As for love making sense - we are talking about emotions here, not what car we are choosing - rational logic often is set aside in the heat of the moment. This is why I am now very careful about who I get involved with before I fall deeply in love with them.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[glamorilla]

i've dumped guys becouse of thier snoring.

 

[J.B.]

I don't know, JB. Perhaps it's one of those things that you thought you could ignore, because the rest of the package seemed so perfect, and now it's like an elephant in the livingroom. Suddenly, it's all you can see.

All I'm saying is, maybe it's good to discuss and address those 'little things' before it's a lifelong commitment thing.

ok I accept that.

 

[crysede]

We read a lot on this board about how we should love people no matter what... that if we 'really loved' someone, we'd love them in spite of their weight or looks or stupidity or the way the dress or chew their food or whatever.

Isn't that a tad bit unrealisitc?

I agree - we all have our hangups, things that we just wouldn't be able to get past. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get past really bad personal hygiene.

Shouldn't we want the people that we love to improve themselves? Why isn't it ok to selfishly want someone to be attractive and at their best? Yeah, we should want what's best for them... but shouldn't they also strive to be what's best for us?

I agree with you that being put off by how someone smells (or looks, or whatever) is not something we should feel ashamed about - but I also don't think it's something we have any right to expect them to change. If you marry someone, knowing that you can't stand their personal hygiene, you've been dishonest to them. You gave them the false impression that you wanted them the way they were - when all along you knew you wanted something else.

I don't think "improving yourself" can be equated with "turning yourself into what your partner want's you to be." People should strive to be themselves.

 

[The Heretic]

All I'm saying is, maybe it's good to discuss and address those 'little things' before it's a lifelong commitment thing.

Absolutely! Communication is vital to any relationship. Everyone here thinks they know how I feel about the need for physical attraction, and I have explained it everyway I can think of, so no one should be surprised, least of all me, by my preferences. Even so, I wouldn't leave someone solely due to their being less physically attractive to me as we go through life. I am certainly not as attractive as I once was and I don't expect my mate to stay attractive forever either. There would have to be other deeper problems (emotional stability/incompatibility, etc.) for me to leave someone whom I was already in love with

 

[Guest]

I guess...

it all depends on the type of person you are. If you are a perfectionist, you might not be able to overlook flaws. Also past experiences probably play a role too. If you've been in a bad relationship in the past, you might not want to deal with bad habits/flaws. Maybe social status or culture/religion has a role to play, maybe one might view a habit as bad while it is the norm to the other person.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Re: Re: Loving In Spite of Flaws... real or perceived

I don't think "improving yourself" can be equated with "turning yourself into what your partner want's you to be." People should strive to be themselves.

I don't think life should be a constant quest to change yourself into what the other person wants, and I hope I didn't imply that. I think that people should always try to improve themselves. First, out of a selfish desire to acheive something... it's called ambition... and second because they know that changing this one little thing would make someone else happy.

I think that if your partner has developed an issue with something that you do (or if they've always had a problem with it, and mistakenly assumed it was something that wasn't a big deal)... a behavior that you have... and it wouldn't hurt you to attempt to change it, then you should try to change it. For no other reason, but to make them happy. Especially if it has become something that is a block to physcial intimacy.

 

[nasty1]

It depends on how severe the flaw is.

 

[Smooth_Operator]

Talking Heads - No Compassion

In a world
where people have problems
In this world
where decisions are a way of life
Other people's problems they overwhelm my mind
They say compassion is a virtue, but I don't have the time

So many people...have their problems
I'm not interested...in their problems
I guess I've...experienced some problems
But now I've...made some decisions
Takes a lot of time to push away the nonsense
Take my compassion...Push it as far as it goes
My interest level's dropping, my interest level is dropping
I've heard all I want to, I don't want to hear any more

What are you, in love with your problems?
I think you take it...a little too far
It's...not so cool to have so many problems
But don't expect me to explain your indecisions
Go...talk to your analyst, isn't that what they're paid for
You walk, you talk...You still function like you used to
It's not a question...Of your personality or style
Be a little more selfish, it might do you some good

 

[april-wine]

Smelly husband needs a bath, I just wanna know what planet he came from that only showers twice a month.....EWWWWWWWWWW....

 

[Jim_Henson]

People do it every day, I have done for years

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I think that, while we should try to accept people for who they are, they should try to not be so goddamned offensive! It's like using foul language around kids...they can't MAKE you watch your mouth, but you should be respectful enough to at least try to censor yourself. If someone loves you, they should at least make an attempt at changing a bit for the sake of compromise.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I think that, while we should try to accept people for who they are, they should try to not be so goddamned offensive! It's like using foul language around kids...they can't MAKE you watch your mouth, but you should be respectful enough to at least try to censor yourself. If someone loves you, they should at least make an attempt at changing a bit for the sake of compromise.

Exactly. What's kind of amusing is, smelly huaband and his wife are currently in counseling. The counselor has been trying to get Mr Smelly to at least tell him WHY he doesn't cleanse himself. Mr Smelly just says "Because I don't feel like showering all the time"... the counselor asked him if he understood how important it is to Mrs Smelly... Mr Smelly said "Yes, but I really think that if she loves me, she should be able to accept me just the way I am. I understand that it bothers her, but I see that as her problem, not mine."

 

[april-wine]

Must have had a traumatic shower experience........


PCG remind him that his shower isn't the boys locker room anymore.......

 

[paganangel]

Exactly. What's kind of amusing is, smelly huaband and his wife are currently in counseling. The counselor has been trying to get Mr Smelly to at least tell him WHY he doesn't cleanse himself. Mr Smelly just says "Because I don't feel like showering all the time"... the counselor asked him if he understood how important it is to Mrs Smelly... Mr Smelly said "Yes, but I really think that if she loves me, she should be able to accept me just the way I am. I understand that it bothers her, but I see that as her problem, not mine."

that sounds like a textbook control issue.
not to mention textbook masochism.

 

[Guest]

 

[CoolidgEffect]

We read a lot on this board about how we should love people no matter what... that if we 'really loved' someone, we'd love them in spite of their weight or looks or stupidity or the way the dress or chew their food or whatever.

Isn't that a tad bit unrealisitc?

In PaganAngel's thread, he asked an honest question. I can't believe he didn't get flamed for it, and I think that speaks volumes for the maturity of the people on the board last night and today. Still, he's been told a few times that he doesn't love her enough to want to be with ehr forever the way that she currently is, so he should walk away.

Shouldn't we want the people that we love to improve themselves? Why isn't it ok to selfishly want someone to be attractive and at their best? Yeah, we should want what's best for them... but shouldn't they also strive to be what's best for us?

This question has been on my mind and I think it relates to another question you posed. That being, “whether or not you have to respect and like someone in order to love them.” I think I answered the second question that they are separate but related. You would respect and like someone before you loved them and if you lost your respect, then your emotion of Love would be hard to maintain. It could be because I think of Respect as intellectual and Love as emotional.

I also think there is a certain amount of hysteresis involved with falling in Love. In other words, the effort involved with falling in love is different than that required to maintain it. For example, I could not imagine falling in love AND being aware of any flaws I would like to change. There is something magical about the moment of falling in love. At that point everything seems rosy and perfect. After you fall in Love you start noticing the flaws.

Also, life is about growing and growing requires change. Hopefully in a loving relationship your growth is in someway complimentary to your partners. Also because nothing is static in life you need communicate your desires to your partner as you grow. I would expect my partner to want to improve to better please me. I would expect my partner to voice their desires so that I could improve as well.

I think many factors come into play at about what may or may not be realistic to expect to change in a partner.

1) How much does this flaw impact your life? For example a flaw that would impact your live would be if your loved one didn’t bath and smell all the time to the point that you couldn’t stand to be around them. As opposed to someone that dresses outrageously bad. I think that might bug you, but I don’t think it would impact your life.

2) How difficult is it to change or improve. Well it’s not that hard to bath regularly, or even dress within a certain set of norms. But to ask someone to have surgery say for stretch marks is potentially putting their life in danger.

3) Is the refusal to change just passive aggressive, control issue or is there something deeper. Maybe they are afraid of the shower because they were molested. Maybe they always wear purple socks because they have a secret crush on Donny Osmond. Maybe they don’t want to have surgery because they are afraid of going under the knife.

4) What caused the flaws and when did they start? If the flaw happened or was noticeable prior to any commitment on your parts then I think you need to accept it or work it out. If it was a flaw that happened after the commitment then you should expect the person to work at improvement. HOWEVER if the flaw was something beyond their control you should learn to accept it. For example, you get your little woman pregnant and she gets stretch marks.


What does all this rambling mean? Well, I guess I wouldn’t kick you out of bed for eating crackers. Unless you never did laundry and the bugs crawling around the sheets left no room for me.

 

[paganangel]

This question has been on my mind and I think it relates to another question you posed. That being, “whether or not you have to respect and like someone in order to love them.” I think I answered the second question that they are separate but related. You would respect and like someone before you loved them and if you lost your respect, then your emotion of Love would be hard to maintain. It could be because I think of Respect as intellectual and Love as emotional.

I also think there is a certain amount of hysteresis involved with falling in Love. In other words, the effort involved with falling in love is different than that required to maintain it. For example, I could not imagine falling in love AND being aware of any flaws I would like to change. There is something magical about the moment of falling in love. At that point everything seems rosy and perfect. After you fall in Love you start noticing the flaws.

Also, life is about growing and growing requires change. Hopefully in a loving relationship your growth is in someway complimentary to your partners. Also because nothing is static in life you need communicate your desires to your partner as you grow. I would expect my partner to want to improve to better please me. I would expect my partner to voice their desires so that I could improve as well.

I think many factors come into play at about what may or may not be realistic to expect to change in a partner.

1) How much does this flaw impact your life? For example a flaw that would impact your live would be if your loved one didn’t bath and smell all the time to the point that you couldn’t stand to be around them. As opposed to someone that dresses outrageously bad. I think that might bug you, but I don’t think it would impact your life.

2) How difficult is it to change or improve. Well it’s not that hard to bath regularly, or even dress within a certain set of norms. But to ask someone to have surgery say for stretch marks is potentially putting their life in danger.

3) Is the refusal to change just passive aggressive, control issue or is there something deeper. Maybe they are afraid of the shower because they were molested. Maybe they always wear purple socks because they have a secret crush on Donny Osmond. Maybe they don’t want to have surgery because they are afraid of going under the knife.

4) What caused the flaws and when did they start? If the flaw happened or was noticeable prior to any commitment on your parts then I think you need to accept it or work it out. If it was a flaw that happened after the commitment then you should expect the person to work at improvement. HOWEVER if the flaw was something beyond their control you should learn to accept it. For example, you get your little woman pregnant and she gets stretch marks.


What does all this rambling mean? Well, I guess I wouldn’t kick you out of bed for eating crackers. Unless you never did laundry and the bugs crawling around the sheets left no room for me.

FOR THE RECORD, i've dated plenty of girls with stretch marks. no problems.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

1) someone actually read all that?

2) I wasn't specifically aiming it at you. I did read your posts and it popped into my head the something like stretch marks can come about for a variety of reasons.

I could have saved myself a lot of typing and just said: Not baithing for 2 weeks. Ewh, that's gross.

 

[patient1]

1) someone actually read all that?

2) I wasn't specifically aiming it at you. I did read your posts and it popped into my head the something like stretch marks can come about for a variety of reasons.

I could have saved myself a lot of typing and just said: Not baithing for 2 weeks. Ewh, that's gross.

Uh, yeah I read it all, but I can't say I recall it .

I can't help but think that the smellys out to be able to work something out by bathing or showering together.

For all I know it's some kind of a diversion game to avoid intimacy for some other reason. Like maybe he's depressed & lost interest in everything, but doesn't want her to know.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

Uh, yeah I read it all, but I can't say I recall it .

I can't help but think that the smellys out to be able to work something out by bathing or showering together.

For all I know it's some kind of a diversion game to avoid intimacy for some other reason. Like maybe he's depressed & lost interest in everything, but doesn't want her to know.

Like I said that sounds Passive aggressive to me. But the result is he loses too.

 

[Calamity Jane]

This is the third time I've tried to respond and I keep timing out. Sometimes I REALLY miss the unreg option, just because at least when we had it, the posts made it to the thread instead of being lost in the ether!

I also think there is a certain amount of hysteresis involved with falling in Love. In other words, the effort involved with falling in love is different than that required to maintain it. For example, I could not imagine falling in love AND being aware of any flaws I would like to change. There is something magical about the moment of falling in love. At that point everything seems rosy and perfect. After you fall in Love you start noticing the flaws.

Hysterisis is a very cool word. Mrs Smelly and I were actually discussing something similar to that last night... about the whole 'falling in love' thing being a state of dishonestly with yourself. You're busy falling in love with who you think this person is, as well as who you want them to be. It's not a time of picking out things that later will make you want to run screaming.
It's also difficult to project how you're going to feel about something in the future. What you may take as a really laid back personality may seem later like a lack of ambition. The reaction to each is different. Likewise, the person may be quite focused on their career, and you may think that's really great... and later find out that they intend to work 80 hour weeks for the rest of their life.


I think many factors come into play at about what may or may not be realistic to expect to change in a partner.

1) How much does this flaw impact your life? For example a flaw that would impact your live would be if your loved one didn’t bath and smell all the time to the point that you couldn’t stand to be around them. As opposed to someone that dresses outrageously bad. I think that might bug you, but I don’t think it would impact your life.

2) How difficult is it to change or improve. Well it’s not that hard to bath regularly, or even dress within a certain set of norms. But to ask someone to have surgery say for stretch marks is potentially putting their life in danger.

3) Is the refusal to change just passive aggressive, control issue or is there something deeper. Maybe they are afraid of the shower because they were molested. Maybe they always wear purple socks because they have a secret crush on Donny Osmond. Maybe they don’t want to have surgery because they are afraid of going under the knife.

4) What caused the flaws and when did they start? If the flaw happened or was noticeable prior to any commitment on your parts then I think you need to accept it or work it out. If it was a flaw that happened after the commitment then you should expect the person to work at improvement. HOWEVER if the flaw was something beyond their control you should learn to accept it. For example, you get your little woman pregnant and she gets stretch marks.

I also think it's important to think about the behaviors you wish your SO would change and try and figure out if you can live with them... if there's a way to reorder your thinking so it's not as big a deal to you... adaptation is important.

I like the point about the why's of behaviors. I think we should also look at the why's of our reactions to behaviors. I know that my reaction to probably 80% of the things that Mr PCG does that make me crazy are because of things that happened or people I was exposed to when I was a kid. It's not his fault they drive me insane, but I don't know if I can change my reactions.... just as he doesn't know if he can change his behaviors.


What does all this rambling mean? Well, I guess I wouldn’t kick you out of bed for eating crackers. Unless you never did laundry and the bugs crawling around the sheets left no room for me.

OR, you could figure out how to work the washing machine.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I can't help but think that the smellys out to be able to work something out by bathing or showering together.

It's been suggested, but as fun as showering together is when 2 people are relatively clean, I can't imagine being stuck in a shower with a construction worker who hasn't showered in days. I barely want to be in the shower with myself after I've spent the day around horses, and they're not that stinky.

For all I know it's some kind of a diversion game to avoid intimacy for some other reason. Like maybe he's depressed & lost interest in everything, but doesn't want her to know.

Even if that's the case, he keeps it firmly in passive aggressive land, because he's already said he won't see a physician, and there's 'no way in hell' he'd take medication.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

OR, you could figure out how to work the washing machine.

You think I know how to work one of those contraptions?

 

[Calamity Jane]

You think I know how to work one of those contraptions?

Does this fall into the old dog, new tricks category?