Lesbian category

[SimonDoom]

The whole point of writing here is to indulge our own fantasies, artistic inclinations, and desires.

There is no universal "one size fits all" point to writing at Literotica. I write stories with a variety of different purposes in mind. I once wrote a story with no purpose OTHER than to reach the widest possible audience, and I was fantastically successful at doing exactly that. As a result of that one story, to this day I have far more readers for my other stories, written with different purposes, than I would otherwise, and, looking back, I wouldn't do things any differently.

I agree with the general principle that one should write for oneself, to please one's own fantasies and creative standards, but one is perfectly free to deviate from that general principle now and then.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Hang on, but how is that wrong in principle? Are you suggesting that on principle it is wrong for any author here to have an idea of an audience that they might prefer to appeal to, and then write their submission with that audience in mind? That seems very... restrictive, actually.

There are a lot of comments on these boards about 'writing what you want' and 'writing for yourself', but what if what you want to do is to appeal to a particular audience over and above another one? Is that not a legitimate choice? Some authors might want to write for a particular audience because that is the one most likely to appreciate their kink/viewpoint/etc, and others might want to do so as a writing exercise. Suggesting that any author approaching a story from that viewpoint is 'wrong in principle' is a bit, well, who made you King of Writing?

You are getting worked up over this for no reason. I do believe that engineering a story in order to appeal to the audience is wrong on principle. That is just my opinion, of course, and I am no King of writing nor do I feel any superior to anyone else here.
Every author here is absolutely free to write in any way he/she wants, but I do believe that trying to appeal to the audience is a flawed approach, aimed only at getting better scores, scores that will then seem empty and hollow because of the way they were earned. Scores are already a bad measure of story quality, yet this approach would make them even more useless. That is just my opinion, of course.
You are free to employ this approach in any way you see fit and I wouldn't even think about pointing it out, but since the OP asked for an opinion, I thought it makes sense to argue against what I think are bad ways of approaching the writing process from a purely artistical point of view. Commercially speaking, yeah, it makes perfect sense.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I once wrote a story with no purpose OTHER than to reach the widest possible audience, and I was fantastically successful at doing exactly that. As a result of that one story, to this day I have far more readers for my other stories, written with different purposes, than I would otherwise, and, looking back, I wouldn't do things any differently.

I understand it perfectly, and I have already answered about this particular approach. In a way, you were thinking "commercially" and trying to attract readership so your other stories may benefit from it. I can't say I agree with your approach as you have no true commercial inclinations that I can see (correct me if I am wrong), so in a way, it does look like tricking readers into reading your other stories. I understand it, but I can't say I am really for it.

 

[HordHolm]

You are getting worked up over this for no reason. I do believe that engineering a story in order to appeal to the audience is wrong on principle. That is just my opinion, of course, and I am no King of writing nor do I feel any superior to anyone else here.
Every author here is absolutely free to write in any way he/she wants, but I do believe that trying to appeal to the audience is a flawed approach, aimed only at getting better scores, scores that will then seem empty and hollow because of the way they were earned. Scores are already a bad measure of story quality, yet this approach would make them even more useless. That is just my opinion, of course.
You are free to employ this approach in any way you see fit and I wouldn't even think about pointing it out, but since the OP asked for an opinion, I thought it makes sense to argue against what I think are bad ways of approaching the writing process from the purely artistical point of view. Commercially speaking, yeah it makes perfect sense.

This is perfectly reasonable. So why say:

I am sure you had good intentions with your suggestions, but I am just pointing out that that whole line of thinking is quite wrong on principle.

Of course that comes across as dictatorial.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah, and then there's the bisexual stuff, which there's a surprising amount of bigotry against in the gay community.

I'm not familiar enough with the category on this website, though, but I do believe those two things will get you some grief.

A character merely being established as bi is not going to be a problem in LS; it's more of a "women having sex with women" category than a "sex between women who identify as lesbians" one. I recall one poster who said she wouldn't read a story if one of the women was even mentioned as being bi, but that was one person, years ago, and even then it was just a matter of "I won't read that" rather than trashing them in votes or comments.

If you're actually including M/F scenes, the reaction is likely to have a lot to do with whether the focus of the story is on women with women, or if it feels more like "hot chicks make out for the benefit of the guy". I think most of the LS readership would be okay with the former, not so much the latter.

 

[SimonDoom]

I understand it perfectly, and I have already answered about this particular approach. In a way, you were thinking "commercially" and trying to attract readership so your other stories may benefit from it. I can't say I agree with your approach as you have no true commercial inclinations that I can see (correct me if I am wrong), so in a way, it does look like tricking readers into reading your other stories. I understand it, but I can't say I am really for it.

Oh, come on. There's no trick. It's not commercial. I'm very clear about my purposes. I have two. One, I want to write stories I enjoy (that's true of the story that I wrote to get an audience as well--it was very fun to write), and two, I want my stories to reach the widest possible audience. To me, that's what publishing is all about.

Shakespeare, Dickens, and Twain all wanted the same thing. They wrote to make money and be popular, and they wrote great art. The notion that one should be "principled" and ignore what the audience wants at Literotica is, in my view, a completely misguided principle. You don't have to choose.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Oh, come on. There's no trick. It's not commercial. I'm very clear about my purposes. I have two. One, I want to write stories I enjoy (that's true of the story that I wrote to get an audience as well--it was very fun to write), and two, I want my stories to reach the widest possible audience. To me, that's what publishing is all about.

Shakespeare, Dickens, and Twain all wanted the same thing. They wrote to make money and be popular, and they wrote great art. The notion that one should be "principled" and ignore what the audience wants at Literotica is, in my view, a completely misguided principle. You don't have to choose.

You can't say that there is absolutely no "tricking" involved. I mean, when you write one story specifically in order to attract a wide readership as you have said yourself, it does imply in a way, at least it does to an average reader, that there are possibly more stories that contain similar themes or kinks. Yet, it was just one story tailored to bring readers who otherwise likely wouldn't click on some other story of yours, based on the category and tags you put in that other story. It is not malicious, of course, and it could be said that it is quite a clever approach, but there is a sliver of tricking involved. It might be a testimony of my own strange mindset that I find such an approach reasonable and expected when used for commercial purposes, but unappealing when used in writing stories that one writes for the pleasure of it.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I might be coming across as a bit more aggressive than I originally intended.

You think maybe? Just a bit? Rob asked a simple question about the expectation of readers in the category. You know the same friggin' question that gets asked about Loving Wives nearly every day?

And your response is to denigrate his principles? I think we can each define our principles for ourselves, thanks.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You think maybe? Just a bit? Rob asked a simple question about the expectation of readers in the category. You know the same friggin' question that gets asked about Loving Wives nearly every day?

And your response is to denigrate his principles? I think we can each define our principles for ourselves, thanks.

What? I wasn't denigrating anything. I was actually replying to another commenter because he was expanding on Rob's questions in a way I thought I should discuss and argue against. If I was aggressive, I was doing it toward that other commenter, and I believe we have worked it out. Only my first reply was to Rob and I don't see that reply as aggressive at all.

 

[MelissaBaby]

What? I wasn't denigrating anything. I was actually replying to another commenter because he was expanding on Rob's questions in a way I thought I should discuss and argue against. If I was aggressive, I was doing it toward that other commenter, and I believe we have worked it out. Only my first reply was to Rob and I don't see that reply as aggressive at all.

I think that if you read through the thread, it's apparent that the comment about principles applies to Rob, for asking the original question. Perhaps you did not mean it that way, but that's the way it tracks.

 

[SimonDoom]

You can't say that there is absolutely no "tricking" involved. I mean, when you write one story specifically in order to attract a wide readership as you have said yourself, it does imply in a way, at least it does to an average reader, that there are possibly more stories that contain similar themes or kinks. Yet, it was just one story tailored to bring readers who otherwise likely wouldn't click on some other story of yours, based on the category and tags you put in that other story. It is not malicious, of course, and it could be said that it is quite a clever approach, but there is a sliver of tricking involved. It might be a testimony of my own strange mindset that I find such an approach reasonable and expected when used for commercial purposes, but unappealing when used in writing stories that one writes for the pleasure of it.

As you suggested in another post, you DO come across as very aggressive. Like you know the one right thing and everybody else is wrong. You admitted you don't read stories here, yet you are certain that you are right about how to change the site. You cannot POSSIBLY have anything useful to say about how the site should be changed if you are incapable of seeing things from the point of view of a reader, and you admit you don't.

And you are totally wrong about me and my readers. The story I wrote is more or less in keeping with many of my other stories in style, tone, and content. Readers seem to have liked it a lot, and they like my other stories too. What I accomplished was to widen my audience, which served my purposes, and seems to have pleased many other readers who otherwise might not have been exposed to my stories. Everybody wins. You are just 100% dead-bang wrong. I suspect you haven't read many of my stories, so you have no information with which to render any meaningful opinion on that subject. This is the problem with your opinions, generally. They're not based on any real data, just hunches that you think are universal truisms.

You are way, way too judgmental. Ease off. Be less certain of your judgments. Listen to other people and other perspectives. Open yourself to other ways of seeing things.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Ok, I take your point, but what does he actually want to achieve is my point.

I want to write my story - the one in my head, which will be a story by a man and is written for men. And I'm wondering if a lesbian story written thusly would be appropriate in the lesbian category, where real lesbians might not appreciate the porn-esque male brain version of a lesbian story. I do realize now, that might be a smaller group than I supposed.

I will write this story as I've planned and put it in the lesbian category. I thank everyone for their input.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The LS category has lots of stories about actual lesbians/WSW aimed at women, and also plenty which are more about 'lesbians' designed to appeal to men. There's not actually a hard dividing line between the two.

I'd flag briefly at the start that there's some BDSM and voyeurism of a m/f couple, and go for it in LS, unless the voyeurism becomes the more important part of the plot than the women shagging.

 

[Voboy]

I might be coming across as a bit more aggressive than I originally intended. Yet your comment implied that we should maybe think about appealing to the audience, and that was what prompted my reaction. There is no reason why he should be tailoring his story for any audience or any category.

...what if this writer wants to do exactly that?

The whole point of writing here is to indulge our own fantasies, artistic inclinations, and desires.

Not for everyone...

I am sure you had good intentions with your suggestions, but I am just pointing out that that whole line of thinking is quite wrong on principle.

Not to everyone.

Some of us have different opinions than you do. And yes. You did come across as aggressive, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

I always take categories seriously, even to my own detriment, because when I was "only" a reader the categories mattered MASSIVELY in terms of the reading choices I made. So I strive to be as accurate as I can be. YMMV, but that doesn't make you "right" and other people "wrong."

 

[Voboy]

...it's not accurate to say you enjoy writing. There is no such thing. Drafting and polishing are tedious and exhausting tasks, and anyone who claims otherwise is simply deceiving themselves.

...and, much like @AwkwardlySet, you don't know shit about what anyone else here finds enjoyable or motivating. Or, more to the point, "tedious and exhausting."

I'm not sure there's a more pretentious ass anywhere on this site than you, to be frank.

 

[SimonDoom]

Let's put an end to this nonsense of "I enjoy writing." You may enjoy weaving stories in your head, fantasizing, and basking in the attention afterward, but it's not accurate to say you enjoy writing. There is no such thing. Drafting and polishing are tedious and exhausting tasks, and anyone who claims otherwise is simply deceiving themselves.

This is a perfect example of the sort of dictatorial, purportedly universal pseudo-wisdom that people sometimes say in this forum (you more than most) that has no legitimacy whatsoever. Utterly delusional.

 

[Voboy]

There's nothing quite like filling a doll full of inferiority complex with a flammable substance and igniting it. A spectacular fireworks show is always guaranteed... soon the other dolls will give you a like.

I'm not sure I'd characterize what I wrote as a "fireworks show." It's just me stating my opinion. And I don't need "likes" for that.

But you keep telling yourself whatever you have to tell yourself. It seems to work just fine for you.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Let's put an end to this nonsense of "I enjoy writing." You may enjoy weaving stories in your head, fantasizing, and basking in the attention afterward, but it's not accurate to say you enjoy writing. There is no such thing. Drafting and polishing are tedious and exhausting tasks, and anyone who claims otherwise is simply deceiving themselves.

Bollocks.

Re-reading a story draft is enjoyable, then I hit a hiccup in the enjoyment and then it's a puzzle to resolve: why does this sentence or phrase or section not work? It's like crossword puzzle; what would be the best word to use in the situation?

Going through, tightening up language and flabby sentences is satisfying, to me at least. Even restructuring is a fascinating intellectual exercise.

Though clearly some authors prefer to publish rather than doing such editing, for whatever reason.

 

[SoCalAshley]

It looks like the thread is going in different directions, but

So I'm thinking about my first lesbian story. Young lesbian woman falls for 40ish neighbor. So far, so good. However through some voyeuristic scenes she has witnessed her neighbors liaisons with women and men. It will also be a dom/sub scenario.

Would the voyeur scenes make it so that a lesbian looking for like-minded stories would be put off? I'd rather put it in EC than alienate a reader with a bad category choice.

I also struggle with picking the right category for my stories. My latest story, Heather Chapter 3 (https://www.literotica.com/s/heather-ch-03-1) is clearly a lesbian crush story. Still, I wrote my story to highlight the charter (who happens to be me) fascination with voyeurism and exhibition so that is the category I chose. I think one poster said it best when he said, “write what you want to write, and stop worrying about the reaction.”

 

[Voboy]

Re-reading a story draft is enjoyable, then I hit a hiccup in the enjoyment and then it's a puzzle to resolve: why does this sentence or phrase or section not work? It's like crossword puzzle; what would be the best word to use in the situation?

Going through, tightening up language and flabby sentences is satisfying, to me at least. Even restructuring is a fascinating intellectual exercise.

You're obviously wrong.

Stop deluding yourself.

 

[alohadave]

...and, much like @AwkwardlySet, you don't know shit about what anyone else here finds enjoyable or motivating. Or, more to the point, "tedious and exhausting."

I'm not sure there's a more pretentious ass anywhere on this site than you, to be frank.

You are arguing with a troll. He only says things that are inflammatory, and when you respond to his posts, you encourage him.

 

[Rob_Royale]

...and, much like @AwkwardlySet
I'm not sure there's a more pretentious ass anywhere on this site than you, to be frank.

If everyone would just ignore him, he would slide back under his bridge and leave us alone. I don't even read his posts.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Bollocks.

Re-reading a story draft is enjoyable, then I hit a hiccup in the enjoyment and then it's a puzzle to resolve: why does this sentence or phrase or section not work? It's like crossword puzzle; what would be the best word to use in the situation?

Going through, tightening up language and flabby sentences is satisfying, to me at least. Even restructuring is a fascinating intellectual exercise.

Though clearly some authors prefer to publish rather than doing such editing, for whatever reason.

I knew a guy who built stone walls. That was his job. He sometimes spent weeks on one wall. Every stone had to fit just right, the color, the shape, the size, the grain; he put much more into it than was really required.

He loved it. And as proud as he was of the finished construction, he took the greatest satisfaction from the time, thought and labor he put into each perfect placement.

I don't think my analogy needs further explanation.

 

[Voboy]

If everyone would just ignore him, he would slide back under his bridge and leave us alone. I don't even read his posts.

I used to think so, too. He seems to enjoy confounding expectations.

It's fine. I'm just feeling ornery today. No doubt I've had the same effect on him that he has on me, i.e. none, really.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

And the clique rides to the rescue.

As you suggested in another post, you DO come across as very aggressive. Like you know the one right thing and everybody else is wrong. You admitted you don't read stories here, yet you are certain that you are right about how to change the site. You cannot POSSIBLY have anything useful to say about how the site should be changed if you are incapable of seeing things from the point of view of a reader, and you admit you don't.

And you are totally wrong about me and my readers. The story I wrote is more or less in keeping with many of my other stories in style, tone, and content. Readers seem to have liked it a lot, and they like my other stories too. What I accomplished was to widen my audience, which served my purposes, and seems to have pleased many other readers who otherwise might not have been exposed to my stories. Everybody wins. You are just 100% dead-bang wrong. I suspect you haven't read many of my stories, so you have no information with which to render any meaningful opinion on that subject. This is the problem with your opinions, generally. They're not based on any real data, just hunches that you think are universal truisms.

You are way, way too judgmental. Ease off. Be less certain of your judgments. Listen to other people and other perspectives. Open yourself to other ways of seeing things.

What a fucking irony. My answer to you was more than polite, yet here you are being very aggressive in your response where you are telling me how I am the one being aggressive. Moving on.
About your approach with that one story, I was merely stating my opinion in principle, again, in a polite way, yet you are going guns blazing. It is incredible that I have stirred a hornet's nest by expressing my opinion and presenting arguments, maybe in a more aggressive way, but far from any personal attack. On this board, where we had open mocking and ridicule of a guy who wrote some frustrations about site owners, where we had name-calling, open and blatant kink-shaming and ridicule of Non-con and BTB writers and god knows what else, yet none of you stood to those people's defenses. But now you are reacting with indignation, how dare I present my opinions so strongly. Maybe I should have mocked and ridiculed, I suppose that is the way that this clique finds more acceptable.

Lastly, man, did you already forget that I corrected you just a few days ago when you claimed the exact same thing - that I do not read stories on Lit? Once again, I've been reading Lit stories for a decade and a half at least. What I wrote in that topic Em started was that I haven't read anything from the active AH participants, except those few examples I've mentioned there.