Language Barrier

[EmeraldKitten]

It seems like a new form of discrimination, one that's acceptable in place of the old forms. Just like in Emerald's post (and I'm not picking on her, just using it as an example) where she says that "everyone she asked" had the same opinion as she does, and had it before she asked.

Isn't that exactly how discrimination works? One must follow the crowd, have the same opinion as "everyone." To stand out from the crowd is to risk misfit status yourself.

I'm just tired of it, is all. I suppose I've come to expect a little more tolerance from people here in the AH, and to be quite honest, I was disappointed that it wasn't so, and that people I really thought might already know how hurtful that type of thing is, didn't see it at all.

I would love to take people and put them in a place where they can see things from the other side, but I can't. The best I can do is continue to try to express it (which I fail at miserably sometimes), and yes, go in with guns blazing at times.

I don't mean to discriminate. I really don't. And I don't care what race they are, or where they're from, or what language they speak.
But can you honestly tell me that it never ever bothers you that you can't understand someone? That it never ever aggravates you? Frustrates you? It's maddening. Ya might as well go outside and spit in the wind.
Most of the points you're trying to make, make sense to me. No, I don't agree 100%, but that's why the world is special- no one thinks exactly the same.

Like I said, I live in a small town with zero tolerance for anything different. Which is why I love people who are. People who aren't the 'norm'.
This town has 2 men accused of being active KKK members. A black man had crosses burnt in his yard. They've ran several black families out of this town.
However, I'm not a sheep and I don't agree with the lines of thinking in this town. And the customers I asked- not all are from this town. They haven't been 'trained' by their parents and their parent's parents to be racist, in any form. (Thank god I'm not from here.)

While I'm at it, lol~ I think the silliest form of discrimination is against fat people, lol. I'm a chubby chick. I was pissed off when there was a big deal a while back with how fat people should have to buy two plane tickets. I was outraged. I'd also never flown.
Once I did- those seats are fuckin tiny! And I'm not really all that big, lol. But then it kinda made sense. Even I would have been more comfy with two seats, lol. I can't imagine how anyone bigger than me would feel.
Discrimination? Yes. Justified- sorta.
I guess the point I'm trying to make- Once you see the other side of things, it changes the spectrum. Maybe if I went to another country and didn't speak the language I'd see how miserable it really is. But I'd learn it. As soon as I could.
It's the one's that make no effort to adapt to their surroundings that piss me off.

Anyhow, Cloudy, I didn't mean to get into a pissing contest with you last night. It's not your views that pissed me off- like I said, this is the reason I posted this thread. It was your insinuation that I didn't care about the life being lost that got to me. I'm not like that at all.
Of course, after that, your point of view started pissing me off too, LOL.

But ya can't please everyone all the time. I hope there aren't any serious hard feelings. But if there are, we don't cross each other's paths much anyway. *shrugs*

Thanks again everyone, for contributing. It's been interesting.

 

[cloudy]

But can you honestly tell me that it never ever bothers you that you can't understand someone? That it never ever aggravates you? Frustrates you?

Honestly? No, it doesn't. I get frustrated, sure, when I can't make myself understood, but that happens as often in English as it does in anything else. I look at that as more my failure to communicate effectively than someone else's. It never aggravates me, and I can say with all honesty that that thought "Why can't they just speak English?" has never entered my mind.

Anyhow, Cloudy, I didn't mean to get into a pissing contest with you last night. It's not your views that pissed me off- like I said, this is the reason I posted this thread. It was your insinuation that I didn't care about the life being lost that got to me. I'm not like that at all.
Of course, after that, your point of view started pissing me off too, LOL.

But ya can't please everyone all the time. I hope there aren't any serious hard feelings. But if there are, we don't cross each other's paths much anyway. *shrugs*

Thanks again everyone, for contributing. It's been interesting.

It was never personal, Emerald. Again, that's possibly my failure to communicate effectively.

I get fired up, as you realize, but until I'm personally insulted, it's not personal to me.

 

[matriarch]

On our flight back from Dallas, I was rather impressed to hear the chief purser on the British Airways flight crew conversing fluently with Italian and French passengers in their own language.

On other flights, I have also witnessed a 'blonde, bimbo stewardess', conversing in Finnish with a fellow passenger, explaining how to complete the immigration and customs forms.

I am always impressed with anyone who can converse in a language not their own. As someone who has always struggled with other languages (in my French oral exam at age 16, my contribution to the conversation consisted of 'oui', 'non', and 'je ne sais pas'. I failed. quelle surprise ), speaking anything other than English smacks of some kind of magic. *sigh*

 

[FatDino]

Yay! Peace at last!

See, it's always better to smile and wink , rather than , even though that particular reddish smilie sometimes looks cute.

 

[Xelebes]

In Canada there are plenty of languages that are protected and encouraged (that is, public schools offering bilingual courses: German, Ukrainian, Arabic, Spanish, Mandarin). Others are simply protected. And then there are the official languages: (Federal) English and French along with a province offering Gaelic an opportunity to thrive (Nova Scotia, particularily Cape Breton Island.)

In most situations, most if not all federal jobs are offered to those who are bilingual. Municipal jobs are up to the local discretion. In Vancouver, Cantonese and MAndarin are good to know while in Cape Breton Island, Gaelic is good to know. Montreal, French is mandatory - you don't even need to know English to get the job.

 

[cantdog]

Yeah, maybe I am being silly. Sarcastic at the very least. I think it does help make my point. The point being, which language would you suggest that I learn to help me communicate with the majority of the population? Unless I read it wrong, I get the idea that you don't think visitors or immigrants of the United States should be expected to learn English, which IS the language predominately used in the US.

You read it wrong. Honest. That is not in dispute.

Actually, I AM willing to honestly consider someone elses point. Maybe I just missed yours.

No, it wouldn't hurt anyone to learn a second or third language, or the vast majority to cover all the bases. Spanish would be a good start, I'm sure. In Louisiana and other states, French wouldn't hurt. Obviously in some communities where I live, Russian would be a good idea. In Lexington, Spanish, Chinese, French, German, and Japanese are the top five, in addition to English. Add to that Russian, Armenian and other languages I've yet to identify.

I'm in total agreement with you that some Americans have given the United States a bad rap in other countries by their unwillingness to learn the language of that country. The mentality some people have that 'Americans are special and everyone should adapt to them' is bullshit.

But, we're talking about living in the United States and being able to communicate. Yes, with the exception of Native Americans, Americans are immigrants. That's an undisputable fact. I'm heinz 57 myself, and can include Cherokee in my ancestry. Somewhere along the way, the English language took over. Had it been another language, I'm sure I'd feel the same way about it. If you're going to another country, learn the language that is predominant.

I do wish people Would stop saying that. Of course. That's not the argument.

Could be, though. There are times when a person might well feel it was not incumbent on him to do that.


But generally, no, that hasn't been the question. Also, most folk seem to have the same idea about where justice lies with regard to the dispatch and also, even, the fireman story.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't mean to discriminate. I really don't. And I don't care what race they are, or where they're from, or what language they speak.
But can you honestly tell me that it never ever bothers you that you can't understand someone? That it never ever aggravates you? Frustrates you? It's maddening.

Although you were talking to Cloudy - Yes. I can honestly tell you that it doesn't bother me that I can't understand someone. It doesn't aggravate me or frustrate me and it isn't maddening.

If it was, then I would think it a very sad failing on my part. I also think I would cry myself to sleep every night, would have major ulcers from the stress, would be afraid to leave my apartment to go to the bank, supermarket or a restaurant or anywhere. I'd probably get paranoid that people were talking about me. If it bothered me, then I doubt I'd be much of an adventurer or an open-minded individual. If it bothered me, frustrated me or made me mad, then I probably should have stayed in North America, where apparently English is the only thing you should ever speak and where all other languages are discouraged.

To qualify, I have been in Portugal for six months. I know a bit of Spanish and a bit of French, but when I first arrived, I didn't understand one word of Portuguese, not even how to say thank you. Finding my way across the language barrier has been an adventure and I don't think my not being able to form complete sentences has bothered anyone since I've been here.

A foreigner in a foreign country is like a child learning how to talk and yet often Americans have more tolerance and patience for children than adults who don't "speak their language". Since being here I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of Americans and especially find it curious why they seem to think that when they are travelling in foreign countries, everyone in that country should also speak American. (lol) It's weird.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm not one to discriminate, but let me just make a few xenophobic, racist, and plain old imbecile comments that will undoubtedly be backed-up by the lot of you so that as usual we can feel properly righteous together in our xenophobia, racism, and imbecility. Oh, and here's a smilie. Giggle.

 

[slyc_willie]

I'm not picking on you, Em, but I just have to throw this out there:

The only countries that don't automatically teach their children a second language are those that are english speaking. Look at how many people here speak english as a second language: Lauren, Snoopy, CrazyAngel, FatDino, Nirvana (and I'm just guessing, because she speaks Afrikaans), Dampy, and that's just off the top of my head.

It is the absolute height of arrogance to expect the world to conform to us. What makes us so damn special that we don't have to expend even a minimal effort to communicate with others, and that they have to do all the work?

eta: I understand the need to learn the language of the country if you are relocating there permanently, however - would you be fluent from the first day you stepped foot in your new home? Of course you wouldn't. You would still be learning, or just beginning to learn. Isn't it a bit unrealistic to expect an immigrant to be perfectly fluent in American english the minute they cross the border? Or even easily understandable?

I'd love to ask each and every person I hear making this argument just how long their families have been speaking english. Americans have forgotten that aside from those like me, this is a country of immigrants.

How disappointing.

It WAS a country of immigrants, Cloudy. Just like the majority of others on this planet. What, is America suddenly the ONLY country staffed with people from other lands?

America has always been a land of foreigners, even considering your own people. You go back far enough, and neither the Hopi, the Lakota, nor Cherokee, nor Iriquois can truly lay claim to this land . . . it belongs to no one, but arrogantly to those who have enough strength to keep it, good or bad.

Personally, when I go to another country, I make an effort to learn at least some of their language. That's called respect. And when vistors come here, I similarly expect them to make an effort to make themselves be understood.

It's a matter of respect. Taking pride in one's language is one thing; it is noble. Historical. But if you want to be heard, speak the language around you. You may not like it, but that is the way things are.

 

[cloudy]

It WAS a country of immigrants, Cloudy. Just like the majority of others on this planet. What, is America suddenly the ONLY country staffed with people from other lands?

America has always been a land of foreigners, even considering your own people. You go back far enough, and neither the Hopi, the Lakota, nor Cherokee, nor Iriquois can truly lay claim to this land . . . it belongs to no one, but arrogantly to those who have enough strength to keep it, good or bad.

Personally, when I go to another country, I make an effort to learn at least some of their language. That's called respect. And when vistors come here, I similarly expect them to make an effort to make themselves be understood.

It's a matter of respect. Taking pride in one's language is one thing; it is noble. Historical. But if you want to be heard, speak the language around you. You may not like it, but that is the way things are.

oh, for fuck's sake....

I don't know if it's me, or if people are just refusing to actually READ my posts.

I never said that they shouldn't learn English when they relocate here permanently. I don't know how much clearer I can make it, but everyone who wants to disagree with me pulls this out of the ether somewhere, and then says the same damn thing. Please reread my posts. I've repeated it ad nauseum for every single person who's said exactly what you said above...wait! I even said it in my very first post, which you quoted, but apparently didn't bother to even read:

eta: I understand the need to learn the language of the country if you are relocating there permanently, however - would you be fluent from the first day you stepped foot in your new home? Of course you wouldn't. You would still be learning, or just beginning to learn. Isn't it a bit unrealistic to expect an immigrant to be perfectly fluent in American english the minute they cross the border? Or even easily understandable?

Cantdog got it (please see his post above). I have to believe that it's just a selective memory thing. That's what you want to think I said, so that's what you see. Is everyone here really that dense?????

I've always thought you very intelligent. Please, prove me right about that, and stop using the same tired argument for a change. READ what I said before shutting your mind down. Then, if you disagree with me, fine, but I can't have a discussion with someone who wants to argue with me about something I didn't say.

 

[cloudy]

I'm not one to discriminate, but let me just make a few xenophobic, racist, and plain old imbecile comments that will undoubtedly be backed-up by the lot of you so that as usual we can feel properly righteous together in our xenophobia, racism, and imbecility. Oh, and here's a smilie. Giggle.

I love you, Lauren.

 

[EmeraldKitten]

I'm not one to discriminate, but let me just make a few xenophobic, racist, and plain old imbecile comments that will undoubtedly be backed-up by the lot of you so that as usual we can feel properly righteous together in our xenophobia, racism, and imbecility. Oh, and here's a smilie. Giggle.

Wow.. I coulda used that from the beginning, instead of wasting all my time typing.
Thanks for summing it up.

~*~

Upon further conversation with several other people (in real life), I've discovered a couple things. The immigrants they know will not make an attempt to learn English. Also, they wont attempt to learn the language because they're only going to be here for a minute. They want to make some money then retire to Mexico and live like fat cats for the rest of their lives.
Another thing- back when I worked at McD's and they had hired several new Mexicans- who did not speak any English- it was hard.
It was partially bad scheduling on the store managers part- but when there were only two English-speaking people on the clock- do ya know how hard it was to have one in the back window taking orders, and one up front, (usually me) running front window and front counter? With all the non-English speaking crew members in the grill? They could go no where else because they couldn't communicate.
Like I said, that was partially bad scheduling, but that to me was ridiculous. That's probably where my 'problem' with this stems from. And as I've said, I worked with them for about a year and not once did they make any attempt to learn anymore English then the smattering they knew to get them by. That too, is where my problem starts.
That right there is probably why it frustrates me, and is maddening. Leftover bad feelings from a job I hated.

So anyway, I'm not trying to convert anyone over to my way of thinking, just as no one's going to change my opinion. Just sharing what makes me feel the way I do.
This thread is so fun!

 

[ltnsfr007]

No comprende

 

[bridgeburner]

oh, for fuck's sake....

I don't know if it's me, or if people are just refusing to actually READ my posts.

It was the tone, cloudy --- and not just yours. What you find salient about your posts is that you agreed that anyone who goes to live permanently in a foriegn land should learn the language, but the main focus of many of the posts here was to essentially call Emerald Kitten and most Americans ignorant, racist and redneck.

It's popular to bash the Ugly American. I've done it myself on occasion and I'm sure I'll get pissed off about something in future and do it again, but it's not perhaps the best way to get one's actual point across.

 

[cloudy]

It was the tone, cloudy --- and not just yours. What you find salient about your posts is that you agreed that anyone who goes to live permanently in a foriegn land should learn the language, but the main focus of many of the posts here was to essentially call Emerald Kitten and most Americans ignorant, racist and redneck.

It's popular to bash the Ugly American. I've done it myself on occasion and I'm sure I'll get pissed off about something in future and do it again, but it's not perhaps the best way to get one's actual point across.

I'm American. I see ugly attitudes every single day.

Maybe it isn't the best way to get my point across, but I'm beginning to get frustrated beyond belief with people arguing something I never said to begin with.

 

[bridgeburner]

I'm American. I see ugly attitudes every single day.

Uh, you're human so you'll see ugly attitudes every day. It's hard to hold the high ground accusing others of racism and prejudice when you're so proud of your own. THIS is what got you misunderstood --- or more accurately buried the part of your posts that you keep pointing out that everyone has missed.

It is not the case that some blind prejudices are okay and others aren't. It's no more reasonable or logical or "correct" to lump all liberals together than it is to lump all conservatives together or all whites or blacks or Californians or Southerners or retirees or what-have-you.

Is there a faction in America that is xenophobic and anti-immigrant and that often spouts off about those who won't learn the language? Yes. But there is also clearly a faction that believes that it's okay to punish firemen for doing their jobs to the best of their ability in order to make a statement about racism that happens elsewhere.

Both of these positions are equally wrong.

Maybe it isn't the best way to get my point across, but I'm beginning to get frustrated beyond belief with people arguing something I never said to begin with.

Okay, it's another communication issue, but is it the fault of the people who misunderstood you or is it your fault for not making your point clear?

Except that I thought your point was pretty clear.

You agree that there are some people who should learn to speak English but the benefit of your doubt is always with any non-English speaker before it is with some backwards-ass cracker who probably bakes cookies for Klan rallies -- which is your initial judgement of anyone who has anything even marginal to say about non-English speakers. (I'm exaggerating for emphasis, truly you weren't that rabid, but the implication was there.)

We're human, we're going to have biases. Nobody gets by without them, but if they get in the way of being understood, then maybe it's worthwhile to curb them a bit.

And, as I said, it wasn't your posts alone. One tends to get lumped in with a "side" and if others on your side are making certain arguments then their tone is also attributed to you.

 

[cloudy]

Uh, you're human so you'll see ugly attitudes every day. It's hard to hold the high ground accusing others of racism and prejudice when you're so proud of your own. THIS is what got you misunderstood --- or more accurately buried the part of your posts that you keep pointing out that everyone has missed.

It is not the case that some blind prejudices are okay and others aren't. It's no more reasonable or logical or "correct" to lump all liberals together than it is to lump all conservatives together or all whites or blacks or Californians or Southerners or retirees or what-have-you.

Is there a faction in America that is xenophobic and anti-immigrant and that often spouts off about those who won't learn the language? Yes. But there is also clearly a faction that believes that it's okay to punish firemen for doing their jobs to the best of their ability in order to make a statement about racism that happens elsewhere.

Both of these positions are equally wrong.



Okay, it's another communication issue, but is it the fault of the people who misunderstood you or is it your fault for not making your point clear?

Except that I thought your point was pretty clear.

You agree that there are some people who should learn to speak English but the benefit of your doubt is always with any non-English speaker before it is with some backwards-ass cracker who probably bakes cookies for Klan rallies -- which is your initial judgement of anyone who has anything even marginal to say about non-English speakers. (I'm exaggerating for emphasis, truly you weren't that rabid, but the implication was there.)

We're human, we're going to have biases. Nobody gets by without them, but if they get in the way of being understood, then maybe it's worthwhile to curb them a bit.

And, as I said, it wasn't your posts alone. One tends to get lumped in with a "side" and if others on your side are making certain arguments then their tone is also attributed to you.

I understand your point.

I will have this to say in my defense, though: I've been on the receiving end of racism. I've had epithets yelled at me through car windows as they pass, I've been watched in stores because heaven knows, I might steal, and I've watched friends get railroaded in the court system because they're "just another drunk indian."

So...when I see posts like I've seen in here, yes, I go off. Probably the biggest reason for that is I've become comfortable with the people here over the years, and I was truly astonished at some of the posts. Hurt, disbelieving, and yes, angry.

 

[bridgeburner]

Cloudy,

I don't know Emerald Kitten so perhaps this is an issue you guys have gone round about before. All I can say is that I saw her post and thought she fairly well embodied the attitude of a lot of people in less urban areas who have good intentions but not the exposure to be as metropolitan as some others would wish. In response to her post I saw a lot of people come out and basically call her an intolerant xenophobe which really doesn't seem to be the case judging from this instance alone.

 

[bridgeburner]

I understand your point.

I will have this to say in my defense, though: I've been on the receiving end of racism. I've had epithets yelled at me through car windows as they pass, I've been watched in stores because heaven knows, I might steal, and I've watched friends get railroaded in the court system because they're "just another drunk indian."

So...when I see posts like I've seen in here, yes, I go off. Probably the biggest reason for that is I've become comfortable with the people here over the years, and I was truly astonished at some of the posts. Hurt, disbelieving, and yes, angry.

We all have jerky knees on occasion. ;->

 

[elsol]

People throw words around like 'adapt', 'assimilate' without (IMO) seeming to actually know what they really mean so let me as a .5 generation latin immigrant respond.

My mother legally immigrated to the United States while I was a baby. She 'sent' for me when I was six years old; by that time my little brother had been born in the U.S. My stepfather was Puerto Rican, born and raised, also immigrating (though for PR's that's not really the right word) to the US in his early twenties.

Here is 'adaptation' in this scenario...

Get a job, work 12 hours a day. In that job, someone will take you under their wing. it's a human foible, some people would say to 'help others' others would say that one person wants to be 'leader' in the little enclave. So what do you do when you need to ask a question, you go to this mentor type person and they show you around and help you out.... they do so in your native tongue. (Any one paying attention will notice that a neat thing has happened, a social structure around the new immigrant.)

Of course, everyone thinks... 'but you've got a job, you need to know the country language', ignoring that cheap labor is as much of an incentive for the employer to find a way to communicate with the employee. Some people here might say that the employer has more of an incentive to learn the native language... the country language is a skill which could make the cheap labor less cheap.

Notice that a lot of restaurant managers and chefs know enough spanish to get the job done, so do construction managers... etc. And by God, look at those little Latin supervisors, where did they come from (I'll give a possible explanation later, but remember what I said about those 'mentors').

I hear the peanut gallery talking about 'What about on their free time?"... of course, that wonderful free time in between 12 hour work days, chasing after your kids, and if you're a woman taking care of your husband (I refuse to deny the extra work load put on women by culture... I just take FULL advantage of it.)

Entertainment... spanish television, spanish movies... spanish newspapers, spanish gatherings (I can go out right now and join a Mexican soccer league in my neighborhood... and I live next to a major university and growing business region.)

Here from the cashew gallery comes the complaint about really getting groceries and all that stuff... right? *cough*cough* let's ignore those bodegas that are around which... do I really need to get into how a latin housewife never has to set foot into a grocery store where they don't speak spanish...

The bodega itself is a sign of something so many people don't get... SOME PEOPLE ADAPT BETTER THAN OTHERS!!!

Maybe some people missed it so let's try it again... some people adapt better than others; numerous reasons why, I usually go for natural intelligence. So generally speaking, the truth is you can adapt and get by without ever actually learning a whole lot of english, can't you?

Now we get to the really good part... the 'me' factor. As the child in the scenario, everything around me tries to assimilate me. To such a degree, that my parents have to work full force, 24 hours a day to prevent it. Here's the kicker, latin culture unlike others isn't against assimilation... because we're not a race, we're a nationalist culture bound by a common language and for the most part, a set of cultural mores.

Thus, in our story... the parents don't fight assimilation of the child; in fact, they encourage it.

Six months later, here I am and I'm fluent in English. (I'm very smart, but in truth the educational system of our city has stumbled into the right system... mixed caucasian and latin kids with a native spanish speaker raised in the U.S.... the little latin children play with caucasian kids and are taught their class in english with special explanation in spanish).

*drumroll* now the child speaks for the parents.

For how long?

I don't know... 4 years between me and my little brother.. four years between him and my little cousin (latin family, cousins are at times not differentiable from brothers, especially in foreign countries where family have to stay together).

I came in at six... six to eighteen... 12 years... the four my brother gives them... the four that my cousin gives them... 20 years.

20 years with a WORKING adaptation strategy... one which follows the path of least resistance. Pigheadness... I can see how that would be your opinion... I would of course have to ask how many years you lived doing 12 hour work days doing labor with children to make sure get fed and have a shot at a better life than you. (I use the work labor because I make 5 times what my mother did one her best year, and if I'm honest for me to do 1 day of what was labor for her, could take me a week maybe two weeks.)

Let's not talk about how the 20 years is extended by a daughter (cultural expectations and all that) or a son who doesn't move away. Or about capitilism trend towards catering to a market 40 million strong who are VERY loyal to their products.

Did I mention the part where my mother didn't get the past the sixth grade... so you're asking for forward thinking, delayed gratification, and extra work while trying to survive from people who are tragically uneducated.

And hmmm... sorry, didn't live in Little Havana or Little Mejico City... I lived in the middle of caucasian land, most of my friends were caucasian or Indian (not the cloudy kind).

-----

Every now and then... just for kicks I try to put myself in my mom's place (and if you think her story is 'unique', I have some old lottery tickets to sell you.) and think about about what it means to just get by.

I have to cut about 50K of my salary... NASTY!!! I mean seriously, people have to worry about making rent! WTF!!!

I have to try to imagine the worry and stuff that comes with two growing boys, who are becoming more and more assimilated by a foreign culture every day... and you know that you have let it happen so they'll have a better life than you.

It's fucking exhausting... I'm almost ashamed of all the shit I SHOULD be doing in my life and don't; like reading my perl and sql books I got for christmas, getting my master's... do I really HAVE TO have kids? Seriously, how do you parents do it?

Could I actually take the time and effort it requires to learn a new language or would the path of least resistance be the route I'd travel?

I like to pat myself on the back and say "Of course, I'd learn the language... of course, I would!"

 

[cloudy]

People throw words around like 'adapt', 'assimilate' without (IMO) seeming to actually know what they really mean so let me as a .5 generation latin immigrant respond.

My mother legally immigrated to the United States while I was a baby. She 'sent' for me when I was six years old; by that time my little brother had been born in the U.S. My stepfather was Puerto Rican, born and raised, also immigrating (though for PR's that's not really the right word) to the US in his early twenties.

Here is 'adaptation' in this scenario...

Get a job, work 12 hours a day. In that job, someone will take you under their wing. it's a human foible, some people would say to 'help others' others would say that one person wants to be 'leader' in the little enclave. So what do you do when you need to ask a question, you go to this mentor type person and they show you around and help you out.... they do so in your native tongue. (Any one paying attention will notice that a neat thing has happened, a social structure around the new immigrant.)

Of course, everyone thinks... 'but you've got a job, you need to know the country language', ignoring that cheap labor is as much of an incentive for the employer to find a way to communicate with the employee. Some people here might say that the employer has more of an incentive to learn the native language... the country language is a skill which could make the cheap labor less cheap.

Notice that a lot of restaurant managers and chefs know enough spanish to get the job done, so do construction managers... etc. And by God, look at those little Latin supervisors, where did they come from (I'll give a possible explanation later, but remember what I said about those 'mentors').

I hear the peanut gallery talking about 'What about on their free time?"... of course, that wonderful free time in between 12 hour work days, chasing after your kids, and if you're a woman taking care of your husband (I refuse to deny the extra work load put on women by culture... I just take FULL advantage of it.)

Entertainment... spanish television, spanish movies... spanish newspapers, spanish gatherings (I can go out right now and join a Mexican soccer league in my neighborhood... and I live next to a major university and growing business region.)

Here from the cashew gallery comes the complaint about really getting groceries and all that stuff... right? *cough*cough* let's ignore those bodegas that are around which... do I really need to get into how a latin housewife never has to set foot into a grocery store where they don't speak spanish...

The bodega itself is a sign of something so many people don't get... SOME PEOPLE ADAPT BETTER THAN OTHERS!!!

Maybe some people missed it so let's try it again... some people adapt better than others; numerous reasons why, I usually go for natural intelligence. So generally speaking, the truth is you can adapt and get by without ever actually learning a whole lot of english, can't you?

Now we get to the really good part... the 'me' factor. As the child in the scenario, everything around me tries to assimilate me. To such a degree, that my parents have to work full force, 24 hours a day to prevent it. Here's the kicker, latin culture unlike others isn't against assimilation... because we're not a race, we're a nationalist culture bound by a common language and for the most part, a set of cultural mores.

Thus, in our story... the parents don't fight assimilation of the child; in fact, they encourage it.

Six months later, here I am and I'm fluent in English. (I'm very smart, but in truth the educational system of our city has stumbled into the right system... mixed caucasian and latin kids with a native spanish speaker raised in the U.S.... the little latin children play with caucasian kids and are taught their class in english with special explanation in spanish).

*drumroll* now the child speaks for the parents.

For how long?

I don't know... 4 years between me and my little brother.. four years between him and my little cousin (latin family, cousins are at times not differentiable from brothers, especially in foreign countries where family have to stay together).

I came in at six... six to eighteen... 12 years... the four my brother gives them... the four that my cousin gives them... 20 years.

20 years with a WORKING adaptation strategy... one which follows the path of least resistance. Pigheadness... I can see how that would be your opinion... I would of course have to ask how many years you lived doing 12 hour work days doing labor with children to make sure get fed and have a shot at a better life than you. (I use the work labor because I make 5 times what my mother did one her best year, and if I'm honest for me to do 1 day of what was labor for her, could take me a week maybe two weeks.)

Let's not talk about how the 20 years is extended by a daughter (cultural expectations and all that) or a son who doesn't move away. Or about capitilism trend towards catering to a market 40 million strong who are VERY loyal to their products.

Did I mention the part where my mother didn't get the past the sixth grade... so you're asking for forward thinking, delayed gratification, and extra work while trying to survive from people who are tragically uneducated.

And hmmm... sorry, didn't live in Little Havana or Little Mejico City... I lived in the middle of caucasian land, most of my friends were caucasian or Indian (not the cloudy kind).

-----

Every now and then... just for kicks I try to put myself in my mom's place (and if you think her story is 'unique', I have some old lottery tickets to sell you.) and think about about what it means to just get by.

I have to cut about 50K of my salary... NASTY!!! I mean seriously, people have to worry about making rent! WTF!!!

I have to try to imagine the worry and stuff that comes with two growing boys, who are becoming more and more assimilated by a foreign culture every day... and you know that you have let it happen so they'll have a better life than you.

It's fucking exhausting... I'm almost ashamed of all the shit I SHOULD be doing in my life and don't; like reading my perl and sql books I got for christmas, getting my master's... do I really HAVE TO have kids? Seriously, how do you parents do it?

Could I actually take the time and effort it requires to learn a new language or would the path of least resistance be the route I'd travel?

I like to pat myself on the back and say "Of course, I'd learn the language... of course, I would!"

Thank you for this post.

There are some that'll never believe it, but thank you anyway.

 

[cantdog]

It was the tone, cloudy --- and not just yours. What you find salient about your posts is that you agreed that anyone who goes to live permanently in a foriegn land should learn the language, but the main focus of many of the posts here was to essentially call Emerald Kitten and most Americans ignorant, racist and redneck.

It's popular to bash the Ugly American. I've done it myself on occasion and I'm sure I'll get pissed off about something in future and do it again, but it's not perhaps the best way to get one's actual point across.

Sure it is, if your actual point was to bash a particular ugly American. The post was ugly.

 

[cloudy]

Sure it is, if your actual point was to bash a particular ugly American. The post was ugly.

Thank you.

 

[cantdog]

Sure it is, if your actual point was to bash a particular ugly American. The post was ugly.

The post creeped me out. People agreeing with it creeped me out. I'd rather feel good about my friends here, and to discover such a broad streak of ugliness in their character was repulsive. There is is.

 

[cloudy]

The post creeped me out. People agreeing with it creeped me out. I'd rather feel good about my friends here, and to discover such a broad streak of ugliness in their character was repulsive. There is is.

Yes. I'm just as much hurt, I think, as I am angry. I truly never expected this.