Language Barrier

[M's girl]

Interesting discussion.

The original story and problem aside..... I think when you move to a country that does not speak your language (which ever that is) you should learn to speak theirs... It's logical, civil and the right thing to do. And since English is still spoken and understood by most people in this world I think everybody would benefit from at least speak some English.

I don't understand people who live in a country for 25 years or more and don't speak one word of the language that is spoken there.... How on earth can they feel comfortable with themselves? I wouldn't! Unfortunately we have plenty of them where I live...

 

[FatDino]

Okay, English is a god-darn hard language to learn. Period. I'm 21 and I've been studying this language since I was 12, in Vietnam. I have friends who come to U.S for post secondary education and not many of them can hold a conversation for very long. Even I still have troubles. The thing is, for students, you already have a somewhat good English basis because obviously, how the hell can you understand the profs if you don't have a clue what "profs" means? But for an average man/woman, who comes to an English-speaking country to live permanently, they don't necessarily need to speak the language to survive there, especially when they're from the majority of the minors, like say, the Chinese or Mexicans or Japanese etc. There are large communities for people from those countries, they live dependently together like they would in their homelands.

One of my aunts in US speaks very poor English and she has been fine for the last six years. I personally don't think it's a good idea to live like that because when emergencies come, it's damn hard to get help. But again, she came here when she was forty something, an age at which it is not easy to learn another language, yet she's trying. The man in the case spoke poor English, but he did speak it, and maybe at that moment of stress, he lost his verbal skills. So...have a little tolerance.

You can take foreign languages in school, but it's not like everyone can be good at it.

 

[cloudy]

So...have a little tolerance.

Exactly.

 

[cantdog]

It's a big world out there. Might be nice to pick up on how some of it goes, moving or not. After all, Somalia was suddenly important enough to us one fine day to send troops in. There aren't a lot of places we can blithely ignore, any longer.

It looks like Chinese might not be a bad thing to know, in the next generation, and you might well decide to encourage your kids to look at it. Or if they will be resolute stay-at-homes, look around the neighborhood.

Most places you could do worse than learn a bit of Spanish. Make your life easier, and folks friendlier, it would. French did, here. People appreciate it.

Just as key to help people be understood, if they are struggling with English, especially in an emergency, but even if they just want to find the post office. A civil thing to do.

 

[angelicminx]

Now you're just being silly. It doesn't help make your point, minx, it just shows that you're not willing to honestly consider anyone else's. Sorry.

Yeah, maybe I am being silly. Sarcastic at the very least. I think it does help make my point. The point being, which language would you suggest that I learn to help me communicate with the majority of the population? Unless I read it wrong, I get the idea that you don't think visitors or immigrants of the United States should be expected to learn English, which IS the language predominately used in the US.

Actually, I AM willing to honestly consider someone elses point. Maybe I just missed yours.

No, it wouldn't hurt anyone to learn a second or third language, or the vast majority to cover all the bases. Spanish would be a good start, I'm sure. In Louisiana and other states, French wouldn't hurt. Obviously in some communities where I live, Russian would be a good idea. In Lexington, Spanish, Chinese, French, German, and Japanese are the top five, in addition to English. Add to that Russian, Armenian and other languages I've yet to identify.

I'm in total agreement with you that some Americans have given the United States a bad rap in other countries by their unwillingness to learn the language of that country. The mentality some people have that 'Americans are special and everyone should adapt to them' is bullshit.

But, we're talking about living in the United States and being able to communicate. Yes, with the exception of Native Americans, Americans are immigrants. That's an undisputable fact. I'm heinz 57 myself, and can include Cherokee in my ancestry. Somewhere along the way, the English language took over. Had it been another language, I'm sure I'd feel the same way about it. If you're going to another country, learn the language that is predominant.

 

[angelicminx]

Okay, English is a god-darn hard language to learn. ... <snip>

So...have a little tolerance.

You can take foreign languages in school, but it's not like everyone can be good at it.

Agree. English is the hardest language to learn. Hell, it's the only language I know and I'm still learning.

Yep, tolerance is good.

I suck at learning foreign languages. I'm frequently laughed at when I attempt it. I'll get there one day, until then... sigh.

 

[cloudy]

Yeah, maybe I am being silly. Sarcastic at the very least. I think it does help make my point. The point being, which language would you suggest that I learn to help me communicate with the majority of the population? Unless I read it wrong, I get the idea that you don't think visitors or immigrants of the United States should be expected to learn English, which IS the language predominately used in the US.

Actually, I AM willing to honestly consider someone elses point. Maybe I just missed yours.

No, it wouldn't hurt anyone to learn a second or third language, or the vast majority to cover all the bases. Spanish would be a good start, I'm sure. In Louisiana and other states, French wouldn't hurt. Obviously in some communities where I live, Russian would be a good idea. In Lexington, Spanish, Chinese, French, German, and Japanese are the top five, in addition to English. Add to that Russian, Armenian and other languages I've yet to identify.

I'm in total agreement with you that some Americans have given the United States a bad rap in other countries by their unwillingness to learn the language of that country. The mentality some people have that 'Americans are special and everyone should adapt to them' is bullshit.

But, we're talking about living in the United States and being able to communicate. Yes, with the exception of Native Americans, Americans are immigrants. That's an undisputable fact. I'm heinz 57 myself, and can include Cherokee in my ancestry. Somewhere along the way, the English language took over. Had it been another language, I'm sure I'd feel the same way about it. If you're going to another country, learn the language that is predominant.

I never said people shouldn't learn a language - in fact, that's the exact opposite of what I've been saying, but you, and others don't want to hear it.

How long has English been your family's predominant language? Two generations? Three?

How do you think those members of your family would feel reading the views expressed here? Emerald didn't express any compassion for the family who lost their child, only the hope that the "dispatcher didn't get in trouble."

For fuck's sake, what's wrong with that picture?

 

[FatDino]

Agree. English is the hardest language to learn. Hell, it's the only language I know and I'm still learning.

Yep, tolerance is good.

I suck at learning foreign languages. I'm frequently laughed at when I attempt it. I'll get there one day, until then... sigh.

Well, it's hard, but not the hardest, trust me. But it's definitely harder than Spanish or French.

 

[3113]

I think the second story about the fireman is more troubling. I mean let's be fair and frank, the first story could have happened under just about any circumstances. Someone who has a speech impediment, a thick accent, a bad phone connection. If operators in an area get a lot of calls from people from a certain country who are *LEARNING* (we'll give them the benefit of the doubt) the language, then dispatchers should be able to say "Stay on the line, a translator is coming!" in that language.

I don't approve of folk living in a country but making no attempt to learn the language WHATEVER country it is, but I also appreciate that no one gets fluent fast, and it might be difficult to tell a dispatcher *exactly* what the problem is.

In THE fireman instance, however, we have a real problem, because the way it comes across, it sounds like the survivors, angry that they survived and unable to understand why the firemen did not go in, felt a need to punish someone (and I've no doubt they were goaded into acting on this desire by certain lawyers). They succeded in doing this by pulling the "bi-lingual" card. It happened because the firemen were not bi-lingual.

But all these folk really did was get the message across that immigrants are vengeful people who will do nasty things to you if you're not bi-lingual. This, Cloudy & Cantdog, bothers you because it *is* racist. But stories like this get people on that bandwagon...as well as people who are *not* racist, but do see, objective and realistically, the injustice of that fireman story.

And it was unjust. The non-English speakers who punished the fire department for what happened were in the wrong, and they should not have had their wrong position affirmed, most ESPECIALLY not for the language difference. Events like this undermine YOUR valid arguments against racism based on language differences, and make it ever harder for immigrants who deserver sympathy, not scorn, for not being fluent in English.

 

[cloudy]

I think the second story about the fireman is more troubling. I mean let's be fair and frank, the first story could have happened under just about any circumstances. Someone who has a speech impediment, a thick accent, a bad phone connection. If operators in an area get a lot of calls from people from a certain country who are *LEARNING* (we'll give them the benefit of the doubt) the language, then dispatchers should be able to say "Stay on the line, a translator is coming!" in that language.

I don't approve of folk living in a country but making no attempt to learn the language WHATEVER country it is, but I also appreciate that no one gets fluent fast, and it might be difficult to tell a dispatcher *exactly* what the problem is.

In THE fireman instance, however, we have a real problem, because the way it comes across, it sounds like the survivors, angry that they survived and unable to understand why the firemen did not go in, felt a need to punish someone (and I've no doubt they were goaded into acting on this desire by certain lawyers). They succeded in doing this by pulling the "bi-lingual" card. It happened because the firemen were not bi-lingual.

But all these folk really did was get the message across that immigrants are vengeful people who will do nasty things to you if you're not bi-lingual. This, Cloudy & Cantdog, bothers you because it *is* racist. But stories like this get people on that bandwagon...as well as people who are *not* racist, but do see, objective and realistically, the injustice of that fireman story.

And it was unjust. The non-English speakers who punished the fire department for what happened were in the wrong, and they should not have had their wrong position affirmed, most ESPECIALLY not for the language difference. Events like this undermine YOUR valid arguments against racism based on language differences, and make it ever harder for immigrants who deserver sympathy, not scorn, for not being fluent in English.

I agree - the fire dept was treated unfairly, but lay blame where it belongs, which is at least partly on the court system that awarded those immigrants anything.

What truly bothers me is that people don't see how absolutely hypocritical it is to demand that everyone know English the minute they step foot in this country. They conveniently forget that they come from immigrants themselves (most of them), and their own grandparents, great-grandparents, or whatever, were facing the same language barrier that these new immigrants are. There is no tolerance, no compassion, no empathy for these new people. In the first story, someone's child died, ffs, but that doesn't matter - let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya, and hope that the dispatcher doesn't get in trouble. I find it troubling in the extreme that no one is bothered by that aspect besides me.

Besides that, the sheer arrogance displayed by demanding that everyone learn English (I'm not speaking of anyone in particular but of Americans in general), while not even putting out a minimal effort to learn any language besides that they were born to, is mind-boggling.

I've always loved this country, but I'm becoming more and more embarassed by my countrymen every day.

 

[Stella_Omega]

How sad.

No wonder we've gone from the country the world looked up to to the country the world despises.

it feels weird, doesn't it?

Well, on the language subject, I spent three years travelling around Europe, and almost everyone I met spoke more than one language- to greater or lesser ability, of course, but almost everyone spoke their national language plus the neighboring country's- Plus English.

I had a smattering of Spanish and of German before I got there, and I was able to pick up enough French or Italian, or Swiss-German to get along pretty well. However, if I had an emergency, I doubt I would have been able to understand eventhe words I already knew- panic will do that to a person.


Here in the states, we don't consider second language an important part of Early Childhood education.

El famoso Noam Chomski, the Einstein of language, has pretty well proven his thesis that the language-learning capability of the brain turns off by six years old- unless a child learns a second set of sounds. If it's done that- If it has had the experience of knowing two words for one thing as an infant- it will be able to continue to pick up new sounds and link them to meanings for much of its adult life. In my case, for instance, I didn't remember speaking German, my mother told me later- that my babysitter spoke German to me at three years old, and I chattered in it. That's all it takes.

In the matter of immigrants, remember the Tired The Poor, The Huddled Masses?

Those people are more likely to have not had the chance themselves to learn a second language. The adults are going to have problems. In fact, most of the adults are not going to be able to learn English, period, and it won't matter how often you call them lazy.

Of the adults on this thread, how many of you feel the need to go to night school to learn a second language?

How about after a full day of labor?

 

[fcdc]

Besides that, the sheer arrogance displayed by demanding that everyone learn English (I'm not speaking of anyone in particular but of Americans in general), while not even putting out a minimal effort to learn any language besides that they were born to, is mind-boggling.

I will agree with cloudy, and bring up the point that my parents' families speak dialects that are practically entirely different languages to one another, but still both speak English despite that (and both can switch to standard Midatlantic American English if required), and that in moving to the Midwest, I have found people out here have problems understanding me because I have a strong mix of accents they do not come in daily contact with.

I might be misunderstood on the phone, too. I have often been misunderstood here in the three years I've been living near Chicago. I have Southernisms from my mom, N'Yawker, and Shelta from dad's family in my accent, and in the way I structure words and sentences. Does that mean that, if I'm in a burning building, I should be denied help? People here often ask me to repeat things, and English is my first language.

The mere fact that these people spoke Spanish - a different language - is no different than me speaking a different dialect from people out here, and should be treated no differently. While the barrier may be greater, there is no excuse to not try your damnedest to try to explain why you aren't saving people's lives in my book - not if you're a firefighter, not if you're a 911 operator. They could have tried writing it down, they could have tried signing, or they could have found someone who speaks even pidgin Spanish - as Fat Dino pointed out, it certainly isn't as obscure (in the US) a language as Vietnamese.

They should have done their best, and from the story alone, they didn't do that. If there was a standard of negligence met there, then I see nothing wrong with the survivors recouping what money they can.

Please note: I may have misunderstood something. If I have, please correct.

 

[cloudy]

it feels weird, doesn't it?

Well, on the language subject, I spent three years travelling around Europe, and almost everyone I met spoke more than one language- to greater or lesser ability, of course, but almost everyone spoke their national language plus the neighboring country's- Plus English.

I had a smattering of Spanish and of German before I got there, and I was able to pick up enough French or Italian, or Swiss-German to get along pretty well. However, if I had an emergency, I doubt I would have been able to understand eventhe words I already knew- panic will do that to a person.


Here in the states, we don't consider second language an important part of Early Childhood education.

El famoso Noam Chomski, the Einstein of language, has pretty well proven his thesis that the language-learning capability of the brain turns off by six years old- unless a child learns a second set of sounds. If it's done that- If it has had the experience of knowing two words for one thing as an infant- it will be able to continue to pick up new sounds and link them to meanings for much of its adult life. In my case, for instance, I didn't remember speaking German, my mother told me later- that my babysitter spoke German to me at three years old, and I chattered in it. That's all it takes.

In the matter of immigrants, remember the Tired The Poor, The Huddled Masses?

Those people are more likely to have not had the chance themselves to learn a second language. The adults are going to have problems. In fact, most of the adults are not going to be able to learn English, period, and it won't matter how often you call them lazy.

Of the adults on this thread, how many of you feel the need to go to night school to learn a second language?

How about after a full day of labor?

Thank you, Stella.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you, Stella.

Always, love

 

[FatDino]

Always, love

Aww...

 

[kendo1]

I'm embarassed by them too. Most of the world is.

But seriously, what happens to visitors(tourists) in the same circumstance?

Back to the original, would it be so hard to have a prompt card or poster on the wall saying 'Hang on, I'll get a translator' in Spannish? And than where does it stop? More difficult for Chinese I reckon.

I'm going to France in the summer for a few weeks, luckily I get by with the language.

On another note, kids in the UK normally study French, Spannish or German in high school ( age 11 - 17 ). My kids started learning Spannish in primary 4 ( age 8 ).

 

[rgraham666]

I know enough in five different languages to get my face slapped.

 

[cloudy]

I know enough in five different languages to get my face slapped.

I can ask where the bathroom is, and buy a beer in five or six different languages.

I'd love to start a poll, and find out just how many of the Americans here could make themselves passably understood in another language - high school French or Spanish doesn't count.

 

[FatDino]

I'd love to start a poll, and find out just how many of the Americans here could make themselves passably understood in another language - high school French or Spanish doesn't count.

Damn. I can't vote.

 

[fcdc]

Fire away. I'll scare you with my answer, although I'm not nearly as much of a polyglot as I could/should be.

 

[cloudy]

Fire away. I'll scare you with my answer, although I'm not nearly as much of a polyglot as I could/should be.

Bet you can't speak Ojibway, though.

 

[fcdc]

Damn. I can't vote.

FatDino -

I have a college friend from Hanoi. She tried to teach me Vietnamese and it didn't stick. Languages generally stick for me, but Vietnamese was so alien that I couldn't really get past the first couple of lessons. So I envy you your ability to switch between two languages that are apparently polar opposites in structure, speech, vocabulary, and sound.

 

[fcdc]

Bet you can't speak Ojibway, though.

Nope. But I can speak Iroquois to some extent (enough to read songs etc.)

 

[FatDino]

FatDino -

I have a college friend from Hanoi. She tried to teach me Vietnamese and it didn't stick. Languages generally stick for me, but Vietnamese was so alien that I couldn't really get past the first couple of lessons. So I envy you your ability to switch between two languages that are apparently polar opposites in structure, speech, vocabulary, and sound.

Thanks. I tried to teach my best friend Vietnamese once too. I taught her how to say "how are you" and all she could ever manage was "how are you, bastard."

 

[rgraham666]

Thanks. I tried to teach my best friend Vietnamese once too. I taught her how to say "how are you" and all she could ever manage was "how are you, bastard."

That's a situation where you can claim ignorance is handy.