Language Barrier

[kendo1]

Are foreign languages part of the US curriculum? As a normal part of school lessons?

 

[FatDino]

That's a situation where you can claim ignorance is handy.

*snicker*

I told her to change, but she wouldn't listen. She said it sounded cooler that way. Besides, she only says that sentence when speaking to me.

 

[cloudy]

Are foreign languages part of the US curriculum? As a normal part of school lessons?

A language used to be required in all schools, but I don't think it is anymore. My son still has to take a year, but with the budget cuts, some school systems don't require it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Are foreign languages part of the US curriculum? As a normal part of school lessons?

No. And they are offered as electives beginning in highschool -- too late to be of much use, according to what we know about brain development.

 

[rgraham666]

I've heard the best place to learn another language is in bed.

Anyone want to help me test that hypothesis?

 

[cloudy]

I've heard the best place to learn another language is in bed.

Anyone want to help me test that hypothesis?

It is. How do you think I've picked up Ojibway so quick?

 

[Stella_Omega]

It is. How do you think I've picked up Ojibway so quick?

you got picked up?

(edited to say)By the way had you learned another language as a kid?

 

[cloudy]

you got picked up?

I came home, but I think I'm going back.

(eta: yes, learned Spanish early on...living in Santa Barbara, it was almost a necessity, old Spanish town, and all that)

 

[kendo1]

Mm. there may be pro's and cons.

So does that mean prostitutes are good with tongues?

 

[FatDino]

Mm. there may be pro's and cons.

So does that mean prostitutes are good with tongues?

No...they're just good at oral in general.

 

[Liar]

But if the city of Columbus had hired a dispatcher who only spoke Spanish, counting on some on-line handy-dandy translator service? THEN the ones whose 4-year-olds receive no care would be anglos. Okay to write those people off? Get pissed off at them too. Because they took Spanish in high school and promptly forgot it, so aren't they just shit out of luck. Tough titty, right?

A friend of mine works in emergency dispatch in Oslo, Norway. Training for the job is rigorous and includes basic crisis management and psychology, medical knowledge (most who work there are also nurse or med students) and, yep, vocal language recognition. Plus a bunch of key phrases in the eight foreign languages most likely to call. A Norweigan operator can supposedly say "help is on the way, please unlock your door" in Danish, English, French, German, Russian, Croatian, Farsi and Spanish (I think those are the one).

 

[cloudy]

A friend of mine works in emergency dispatch in Oslo, Norway. Training for the job is rigorous and includes basic crisis management and psychology, medical knowledge (most who work there are also nurse or med students) and, yep, vocal language recognition. Plus a bunch of key phrases in the eight languages most likely to call. A Norweigan operator can supposedly say "help is on the way, please unlock your door" in Danish, English, French, German, Russian, Croatian, Farsi and Spanish (I think those are the one).

Thank you, Liar. You proved my point quite nicely.

 

[kendo1]

A friend of mine works in emergency dispatch in Oslo, Norway. Training for the job is rigorous and includes basic crisis management and psychology, medical knowledge (most who work there are also nurse or med students) and, yep, vocal language recognition. Plus a bunch of key phrases in the eight languages most likely to call. A Norweigan operator can supposedly say "help is on the way, please unlock your door" in Danish, English, French, German, Russian, Croatian, Farsi and Spanish (I think those are the one).

That seems reasonable to me, considering the country.

I've no idea about UK emergency centres.

Ogg might.

 

[Stella_Omega]

A friend of mine works in emergency dispatch in Oslo, Norway. Training for the job is rigorous and includes basic crisis management and psychology, medical knowledge (most who work there are also nurse or med students) and, yep, vocal language recognition. Plus a bunch of key phrases in the eight foreign languages most likely to call. A Norweigan operator can supposedly say "help is on the way, please unlock your door" in Danish, English, French, German, Russian, Croatian, Farsi and Spanish (I think those are the one).

This should be repeated at the top of every page of this thread.

(edited to say)

It would be reasonable, considering the country...
we are a nation of immigrants- even in Texas!

 

[3113]

What truly bothers me is that people don't see how absolutely hypocritical it is to demand that everyone know English the minute they step foot in this country.

On the flip side, it is equally unfair or unrealistic for everyone coming to this country to expect the country to bend over backwards to accomidate them if they don't speak English and especially if they've no intention of learning it. HENCE the Fireman example. The expectation there was that the department SHOULD know Spanish...and why should they?

You can't have it both ways. You can't be embarassed by U.S. Citizen refusing to learn a foreign language, and yet forgive foreigners who refuse to learn English--or who get upset if signs, etc. are only in English.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[cloudy]

On the flip side, it is equally unfair or unrealistic for everyone coming to this country to expect the country to bend over backwards to accomidate them if they don't speak English and especially if they've no intention of learning it. HENCE the Fireman example. The expectation there was that the department SHOULD know Spanish...and why should they?

You can't have it both ways. You can't be embarassed by U.S. Citizen refusing to learn a foreign language, and yet forgive foreigners who refuse to learn English--or who get upset if signs, etc. are only in English.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Where did I say they shouldn't learn English? Please point it out to me, because I don't recall saying that.

I've repeatedly said I understood that they should, indeed, learn the language of whatever country they're moving to, but that we are sadly lacking in tolerance for those who are trying their damnedest to get along in an unfamiliar country.

 

[jomar]

Well, on the language subject, I spent three years travelling around Europe, and almost everyone I met spoke more than one language- to greater or lesser ability, of course, but almost everyone spoke their national language plus the neighboring country's- Plus English.

Yes. We in the US haven't had the same motivation.

Here in the states, we don't consider second language an important part of Early Childhood education.

True. It comes and goes. I had French in preschool, but my kids didn't.There are immersion schools for languages at the elementary school level, but no requirements for all kids to learn a second language at that level. Phys ed and the arts take a beating too.

In the matter of immigrants, remember the Tired The Poor, The Huddled Masses?

Those people are more likely to have not had the chance themselves to learn a second language. The adults are going to have problems. In fact, most of the adults are not going to be able to learn English, period, and it won't matter how often you call them lazy.

I think if people had a need to learn they would make the effort. Someone else here mentioned communities where a person can speak their native language and have no need to learn English. We all probably know people whose children are fluent in English, parents get by, and grandparents not at all.

No. And they are offered as electives beginning in highschool -- too late to be of much use, according to what we know about brain development.

This may be local. Here, foreign language is offered in middle school and at least two years are required for high school graduation. Many colleges also want applicants to have a foreign language. It may be harder to learn another language when older, but by no means impossible.

 

[FatDino]

Phys ed and the arts take a beating too.

I hate arts. Hate it, hate it. It was the only C in my report card. Hell, I barely managed enough marks for a C. Almost had to retake it. Hate arts!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes. We in the US haven't had the same motivation.



True. It comes and goes. I had French in preschool, but my kids didn't.There are immersion schools for languages at the elementary school level, but no requirements for all kids to learn a second language at that level. Phys ed and the arts take a beating too.




I think if people had a need to learn they would make the effort. Someone else here mentioned communities where a person can speak their native language and have no need to learn English. We all probably know people whose children are fluent in English, parents get by, and grandparents not at all.



This may be local. Here, foreign language is offered in middle school and at least two years are required for high school graduation. Many colleges also want applicants to have a foreign language. It may be harder to learn another language when older, but by no means impossible.

We know that "making an effort" is not enough for many older people.

We know, in fact, that it can be impossible for many people. Not a thing that can be done. Like telling a tone deaf person that they can lern to sing, like telling a legless man that he can run.

During our 231 years of history, we have been host to waves of immigrant families. All of these waves were notable for the same thing; parents that never learned the English language, and children who learned it easily and quickly.

We've had Russian, Chinese, Korean, German, Irish, Nigerian, you name it- ghettos, where the older people could feel comfortable. And they stayed in those ghettos till they died. I'll be damned if I can understand why people think this is something new.


If you find it possible to pick up other languages, Jomar, it's because you had French in preschool. Have your kids been exposed to any languages yet? Highschool is really too late to attune the language centers of the brain. It really is. The kids may pick up some French, but in no wise will it be easy, nor will it 'stick' with any certainty...

 

[EmeraldKitten]

Emerald didn't express any compassion for the family who lost their child, only the hope that the "dispatcher didn't get in trouble."

For fuck's sake, what's wrong with that picture?

I honestly didn't mean to stir up some major shit.
I'm pretty sure I made my point nicely, calmly, and wasn't trying to start a pissing contest. I just went to the bathroom, thanks.

But before I finish reading this thread-
I take extreme offense to that paragraph. I'm sorry, I forgot I was such a horrible person.
I have compassion for that little girl and her family, regardless race, age, sex, whatever.
Whenever someone dies, it's a tragedy.
Might I mention that my dad died 2 months ago tomorrow?
Poor twisted soul. And instead of crying for two months, I'm so heartless I guess I should have been saying, "Ehh, he was a great big Heroin addict. What a waste of a human. He didn't deserve for someone to try and save him. They wasted manpower. I sure hope the paramedics don't get in trouble for letting him die."

A little dramatic, yes. Completely unrelated? Yes.
But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit here and read about what's wrong with that picture.

So let me again say- I am very sorry for not expressing my sympathy for the loss of a life.
But I'm pretty sure anyone that knows me would have never thought I was implying such a thing.

Thanks for playing.

Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and possibly respond again.
We'll see though. My black heart might need a rest.

*Kitten apologizes if anyone was offended during this rant*

 

[cloudy]

I honestly didn't mean to stir up some major shit.
I'm pretty sure I made my point nicely, calmly, and wasn't trying to start a pissing contest. I just went to the bathroom, thanks.

But before I finish reading this thread-
I take extreme offense to that paragraph. I'm sorry, I forgot I was such a horrible person.
I have compassion for that little girl and her family, regardless race, age, sex, whatever.
Whenever someone dies, it's a tragedy.
Might I mention that my dad died 2 months ago tomorrow?
Poor twisted soul. And instead of crying for two months, I'm so heartless I guess I should have been saying, "Ehh, he was a great big Heroin addict. What a waste of a human. He didn't deserve for someone to try and save him. They wasted manpower. I sure hope the paramedics don't get in trouble for letting him die."

A little dramatic, yes. Completely unrelated? Yes.
But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit here and read about what's wrong with that picture.

So let me again say- I am very sorry for not expressing my sympathy for the loss of a life.
But I'm pretty sure anyone that knows me would have never thought I was implying such a thing.

Thanks for playing.

Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and possibly respond again.
We'll see though. My black heart might need a rest.

*Kitten apologizes if anyone was offended during this rant*

Yes, please read the rest of the thread, especially my first post where I said I wasn't picking on you specifically.

IIRC, I expressed my condolences on the death of your father, but what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

 

[EmeraldKitten]

Okay.
Thanks to everyone for your replies. I see everyone's point. This is the reason I posted this thread, was to see what everyone else thought.

I brought up the news story to all of my customers today and every single one of them agreed with me, before I voiced my opinion.

Now, let me add that I live in a very small town. The number of minorities are below national average. Waaayy below. But I went to beauty school in the ghetto and got socialized. I realized there were people of different colors out there. And I'm glad. I didn't like being sterotyped as a racist just because of the town I'm from.

I do not mind people of other races/religions/etc/whatever the case may be. I think it's neat. I feel I've learned something.

Now, let me also add that I worked at the local McD's, and they've hired a ton of Mexicans. I didn't care, they did what they were supposed to do. I'm pretty sure only one of them is really legal, but hey- what's it matter! Yayyyy cheap labor!
They did not attempt to learn English. They knew a tiny bit, but over the course of the year I worked there with them, not once did any of them try and "better themselves." (Wonder if that comment will piss anyone off? )
I found it fucking ridiculous I had to walk away from my position up front as the manager, and mime to them what I wanted them to do. It was a waste of time. You want this job? Speak English.
Some of the other managers, though not all, knew enough to say a word or two and they'd understand what the general idea was.
I took two years of Spanish. No, I don't remember anything but a phrase or two. But I didn't use them. You want this job? Speak English.
Close-minded? Yes. Selfish? Probably, yes.
But if you won't do a damn thing to learn the language, why in the fuck should I use yours?
Ya ever try and close a store with two Mexicans that don't speak one word of Engllish? Not a single one? And the words I needed I sure as hell didn't know. Let's say I closed the store by myself.

I do not expect all immigrants to speak English fluently when they've only got one foot over the border. I would expect them to attempt to learn if they plan to stay.

I don't feel bad about this because it's how I feel.
Just as no one else feels bad about their opinion, because that's what the think is right.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I'm not trying to shove mine down someone's throat. (There ya go, a sexual comment- we're back on topic.) I'm not trying to convert anyone. (Another one, yay!)
This is how I feel. Take it or leave it. As I'll do with anyone I don't agree with.

 

[EmeraldKitten]

Yes, please read the rest of the thread, especially my first post where I said I wasn't picking on you specifically.

IIRC, I expressed my condolences on the death of your father, but what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

I did read the rest of the thread.
But I'm pretty sure I read the part I quoted correctly.
The rest of your posts don't mean shit. That was a personal attack.

The death of my father has nothing to do with it. I was comparing.
Since they were "just Mexicans" I didn't feel bad.
And my dad was "just a druggie" He didn't deserve help either.
(It's extreme sarcasm. Just showing how mean I am.)

 

[cloudy]

I'm not trying to start anything with you, Emerald, so please don't take this that way, but just out of curiosity, how many generations would you have to go back in your family to find an immigrant that didn't speak English?

And how would you feel knowing that your family, maybe an elderly person, bewildered and confused in a new country, was being treated the way so many seem to have advocated in this thread?

I don't think you're a horrible person. If I did, I wouldn't even bother with you at all. I do, however, think you could do with a little bit of tolerance and empathy for those who are trying. It's not as easy as most seem to think to learn a new language as an adult. As Stella's already stated, if you don't learn a second language as a child, your chance of actually becoming fluent in another language are close to nil.

Let's say, just for a second, that you had to move someplace like....China to be able to survive, and to make sure that your family was fed, etc. You don't speak a word of Chinese, I'm guessing. All the signs are in Chinese, very few speak your language (let's pretend), and now you have to find a job to support yourself. Wouldn't you be just a little bit overwhelmed? I sure as hell would be.

Still have no empathy for these people?

 

[cloudy]

I did read the rest of the thread.
But I'm pretty sure I read the part I quoted correctly.
The rest of your posts don't mean shit. That was a personal attack.

The death of my father has nothing to do with it. I was comparing.
Since they were "just Mexicans" I didn't feel bad.
And my dad was "just a druggie" He didn't deserve help either.
(It's extreme sarcasm. Just showing how mean I am.)

You know what? Ignore the post I made immediately before this one, then. I was trying to be reasonable, but I can see you have a closed mind.

Don't patronize me - you're not that good at it.