It's not a democracy. It's a classroom.

Should this student have been expelled from class for racism??

  • Yes, he should have been expelled.

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • No, he should not have been expelled.

    Votes: 11 45.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 33.3%

  • Total voters
    24

Cheyenne

Ms. Smarty Pantsless
Joined
Apr 18, 2000
Posts
59,553
White student fights removal from ISU class
By STACI HUPP
Register Staff Writer
05/22/2002

Ames, Ia. - Jay Gardner and his professor agree that racism spoiled their Iowa State University journalism class this spring.

They disagree on who is at fault. They blame each other.

The professor, a black woman, banned Gardner, a white graduate student, from the class in February and compared him to a white supremacist. The university backed the professor.

Gardner is still fighting the decision, nearly two weeks after final
examinations.

The professor, Tracey Owens-Patton, complained that Gardner turned the class, "Ethnicity, Gender, Class and the Media," into a racial battleground, harassed her and kept other students from learning.

Gardner says he was defending against a constant anti-white attack because his classmates were afraid to. There's a difference, he said, between asking provocative questions and being a racist.

"If you're going to make claims that white America is intentionally
suppressing, holding down, oppressing African-Americans . . . you have to let some students give their opinions on it, and that wasn't happening," said Gardner, a New Jersey native who enrolled at ISU in January.

Gardner, 38, is part of a trend of white people in education who complain of discrimination, researchers say. Most cases involve white professors who who say minorities are favored in hiring or promotion, said Roger Clegg, spokesman at the Center for Equal Opportunity in Sterling, Va.

Attention fell on ISU's journalism school this month after at least one professor with seniority complained that inexperienced minority professors receive more perks, ISU leaders said.

In a letter to ISU officials, Owens-Patton said Gardner criticized a holiday honoring the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., among other complaints. She said Gardner defended racial profiling because "minorities do commit more crimes than whites."

Owens-Patton and ISU officials declined to be interviewed about Gardner's case, saying student discipline issues are private.

Gardner said the allegations were false, embellished or both.

ISU junior Megan Vance, one of Gardner's classmates, said his comments weren't offensive.

"He was just a student who would comment, and a lot of teachers would like more students to comment," said Vance, 22, of Le Mars.

Another classmate, Angela Mahaney, defended Owens-Patton.

"It was almost like he was trying to take control of the class with his comments so the professor couldn't get through the materials," said Mahaney, 22, who graduated this month.

Owens-Patton will remain on the journalism faculty this fall. Two other black professors have pursued jobs elsewhere.

ISU leaders have tried to lure and keep minorities since the state Board of Regents pressed for increased campus diversity more than 10 years ago. That doesn't mean minorities automatically win disputes, said Howard Shapiro, a vice provost.

Gardner was in the class about a month before he was told to leave. He filed a complaint against Owens-Patton, saying her class minimized freedom of speech.

The complaint was denied by the journalism school head, two college deans, a committee of faculty and graduate students, and the university provost. Gardner's last recourse is Gregory Geoffroy, ISU's president.

Overturning a professor's decision when a student is banned from a class is sometimes a moot point because a student complaint takes months to work through the university, Shapiro said. By then, a class might be over.

If the university sides with a student, ISU officials usually negotiate ways to give the student credit for the class, Shapiro said.

Gardner wants an apology from Owens-Patton.

He probably won't get one. Students rarely receive apologies from professors after a dispute, Shapiro said.

"Whose right it is to determine what is taught in the class and how it's conducted is the professors'," Shapiro said. "It's not a democracy. It's a classroom."
 
I believe Mr. Gardner had the right to ask questions and stimulate thoughts among his fellow students. Unless it is stated in the syllabus of the course that students are not allowed to ask questions -- which would never make it past review -- the student has a right to propose a counterpoint to the material offered by the instructor.
 
It is impossible to judge given the limited info in the article.

Two thoughts though...

There are racists out there...no doubt...ON BOTH SIDES!!! It isn't popular but white males ARE discriminated against in the name of fairness all too often.

No one race in America is BORN oppressed. Can one cite examples? Surely...but there are fine examples of Apalatians that are white as can be that are discriminated against, impoverished...etc...There will ALWAYS be examples.

I think something about human nature in America is that everyone wants to have it harder than everyone else...it's almost like some sort of sick competition.

I just wish every race, every sex, every person would get over it and realize even those in the worst of situations are FAR better off than many millions of people all over the world that are TRUELY oppressed.

It is sad that certain groups can freely 'bitch' about their REAL problems (I use the word real to stress these issues DO exist)without any guilt or condemnation, but white males sound like bigots when they voice their frustrations at the injustices they witness.

Ok rant off...can't we all just get along???!?!
 
It might have been more sensible for...

the Professor to ask the rest of the class what they thought about the questions.

It sounds like the class is full of mature students (Gardner is 38) then it would be more mature for the professor to throw the situation open and take her cue from there.

Not run to the Principal and have the student suspended.

ppman
 
Don't worry bluespoke and Cheyenne...

the feeling'll soon pass :D

But on a more serious note this sounds like an ideal opportunity for a full class discussion on the subject.

If the Professor chose not to do it I can't help wondering whether she should be running a course of that type in the first place.

:)
 
Re: Don't worry bluespoke and Cheyenne...

p_p_man said:
the feeling'll soon pass :D

But on a more serious note this sounds like an ideal opportunity for a full class discussion on the subject.

If the Professor chose not to do it I can't help wondering whether she should be running a course of that type in the first place.

:)

It sounds very much as if the Professor had an agenda and nobody was going to deflect her from it.

If she can't handle questioning from a student, mature or otherwise, why is she teaching?

The learning process is all about asking questions and hearing the answers. If your teacher refuses to hear the questions, there is no hope of learning.
 
Although it is difficult to reconstruct the events from this skimpy report, the answer seems obvious enough: they're both to blame.

However, I tend to side with the professor on this one. As the article points out, it was her classroom. She may not have handled the situation well, but she can do whatever she pleases, as far as I'm concerned. If the student doesn't like it, he or she can drop the class.
 
Hamletmaschine said:
Although it is difficult to reconstruct the events from this skimpy report, the answer seems obvious enough: they're both to blame.

However, I tend to side with the professor on this one. As the article points out, it was her classroom. She may not have handled the situation well, but she can do whatever she pleases, as far as I'm concerned. If the student doesn't like it, he or she can drop the class.


So you are happy to see a teacher behave like an ass and ruin someone's education?
 
In an atmosphere of higher education, particularly a class concerning something as subjective as journalism, I don't see how any professor can teach an 'absolutist' point of view and be doing their job properly.

There is a difference between education and indoctrination. Can the professor.

Ishmael
 
how can one come to any conclusion in a he said she said case with only one witness to justify each of the parties complaints? However, unless the man uses offensive language and/or racial epithets, then there was no reason to bar him from a class HE paid for. Sets a dangerous precedent in todays climate concerning higher education.
 
Hamletmaschine said:
Although it is difficult to reconstruct the events from this skimpy report, the answer seems obvious enough: they're both to blame.

However, I tend to side with the professor on this one. As the article points out, it was her classroom. She may not have handled the situation well, but she can do whatever she pleases, as far as I'm concerned. If the student doesn't like it, he or she can drop the class.

A teacher's job is to teach. Not run a mini empire where the teacher's word is law.

This particular teacher should think on her feet. Not work to a pre-arranged schedule.

God I know quite a few teachers who would jump at the chance at having a decent classroom discussion. Most of them tell me their students just sit there like dummies listening to what's being told them with hardly a flicker of stimulation. No matter what the teachers do.

Yes the report is skimpy, but judging from what it says alone, I side with no-one but the teacher is definitely wrong.

Come to that the Principal didn't come out of it very well either.

He should have told her to get on with it.

Not turn it into a student/school problem.

ppman
 
We have a lot of teachers on the bb, I'd like to hear from a few of them. I agree that most would probably jump at the chance to have a lively class discussion.
 
I didn't understand the situation described. Specifically, how was the student disruptive? What did the teacher say that set him off?


It sounds like the old dude was trying to usurp the teacher's power. I suggest he become a teacher and see if he tolerates the same behavior.
 
So you are happy to see a teacher behave like an ass and ruin someone's education?

I see nothing in here about the teacher's "behaving like an ass" or "ruining anyone's education."

In an atmosphere of higher education, particularly a class concerning something as subjective as journalism, I don't see how any professor can teach an 'absolutist' point of view and be doing their job properly.

Where does it say the professor was teaching "absolutism"?


A teacher's job is to teach. Not run a mini empire where the teacher's word is law. . . .

And there is, of course, only one right way to teach. :rolleyes:

Again, I see nothing in the article to suggest any mini-empire- building by the professor. The question of which party was obstructing discussion or debate is an open one from the information presented here.
 
Re: It might have been more sensible for...

p_p_man said:
the Professor to ask the rest of the class what they thought about the questions.

It sounds like the class is full of mature students (Gardner is 38) then it would be more mature for the professor to throw the situation open and take her cue from there.

Not run to the Principal and have the student suspended.

ppman

what he said :)
 
Hamletmaschine said:
She may not have handled the situation well, but she can do whatever she pleases, as far as I'm concerned. If the student doesn't like it, he or she can drop the class.

You said it's her class she can do as she pleases.

You said if he doesn't like it, he or she can drop the class.

I reiterate - So you are happy to see the teacher behave like an ass and ruin someones education.

You have said that the teacher is allowed to behave as she wishes without regard to the effect on the student.
 
Okay, I see what you were referring to now, Bluespoke.

If you want to push my statement to such an extreme situation, then I'd probably say, "Sure." Shit happens. Life isn't fair. Lots of people feel like their lives have been "ruined" by someone's ass-like treatment of them. Mine gets "ruined" that way two or three times a year. I get over it.
 
I've actually been in a class JUST like that, so I can realate - it was an undergrad sociology class with mostly soph-junior level students. There was one older student (40s) that did most of the "discussing." He argued about a lot of things - he was obnoxious - the teacher was obviously exasperated, but he dealt with it by often saying "that's another way of looking at it." But *I* thought the student was obnoxious, and while his arguments sometimes had merit, most of us just wished he would shut up so we could learn the material, write our papers, pass our tests and get our grades.

From the ISU course catalog:

Jl MC 477. Ethnicity, Gender, Class and the Media
(3-0) Cr. 3. S. Prereq: Sophomore classification. Portrayals of ethnic groups, genders, and classes in the media in news, information and entertainment; the effects of mass media on social issues and population groups. Nonmajor graduate credit.

I think that a class is made up of the material you are supposed to learn. The teacher is doing her job if she imparts that material to the students.

I wish we could know exactly what went on in that class.

But basically, while I guess he has a right to rebut what the teacher was teaching if he disagreed with it, it's not really appropriate to make the class so disrupted that she couldn't get through the material (as one student commented).

That would be like taking a religion class and constantly arguing for Darwin's theory - yes, it's a counterpoint, but if you're there to learn the history of, say, the Catholic religion, it would get tiresome.
 
Lots of good POVs (even from ppman *shudder*), but I voted other; just too little info to go on to vote one way or the other. Ultimately a teacher pretty much has the right to run a class the way they wish, but calling someone a racist because they disagree is the sign of a weak person and argument. Having them thrown out of the class shows poor teaching and people skills (this is not a high school, it was a college), and if I were the administrator I would probably note that in her personnel file. Ultimately it is the teacher's responsibility to set the tone of how the class is run, and it is the responsibility of the student to get something from the class regardless of what is taught and how it is taught.
 
My opion with the limited information

Is that the teacher let the student gain too much control in the discusion. I agree that both parties handled this badly but I put most of the blame on the teacher simply because she should have talked with the student and explained that he was distracting /disrupting / derailing the class from where she wanted it to go. Then let him know that if he continued to behave in this manner she would remove him from the class.

Also It seems to me that the professor could have simply said. "Well that is an interesting point however we are off topic and this is the material that needs to be covered today!" Or "Mr. _____, that is a novel veiw point, Please write a 3 page paper on why you think that is so."

Just my opinion and it is worth what I charge for it!

Holden
 
I've been in a class that was completely overtaken by one or two students. Class discussion doesn't result. Chaos is the result.

A classroom is NOT a democracy. A classroom isn't, in the final analysis, a place for all viewpoints to be heard. Students are in a classroom to learn about a particular topic. It is the teacher's responsibility to teach the material in whatever way they choose. The teacher may feel that there is too much material to cover to allow lengthy class discussions and teach the majority of the class in a lecture format. The teacher may feel that students learn more from in depth discussions and expect the students to glean the majority of the information from reading. Those are the teacher's decisions.

If the student has problems with what is happening in the classroom, they should first address it with the teacher outside the classroom. If the situation isn't resolved, the student should go to the chair of the dept. Obviously, both parties in this situation acted badly. The teacher is still the teacher, though. If the teacher says, "You are disrupting the other students' learning, you cannot return," then the student is out. It's the only realy tool of removing troublemakers we have. I hope administrators at all levels of education will figure out that teachers can't ever be effective if they take away all our means of handling disruptive students.
 
Back
Top