It's character that we lost

Ishmael

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At one time a man or womans word were their bond. Words meant something and were followed by deed. Even if the giver of the bond had to suffer in the short term. We didn't need government to know this. Or the law. It was just the way things were.

From corporate scandals to discardable relationships, we, as a nation, have lost our character. We excuse this by refering to nifty little loopholes in the law, or by blaming others, or by just saying something happened. (Totally ignoring the fact that one had to be receiptive to that "happening".) Outside of the traditional "Force Majeur" (Acts of nature, war, or civil insurrection) we are pretty much responsible for all that we do and all that we say.

The following article is another point of view on the same subject.

--------------------------------------------------

Paul Craig Roberts

July 24, 2002

Rules no substitute for character

While Washington fuels -- and the media fans -- a fiery corporate witch hunt, the economy and investing public burn.

The witch hunt permits government to sate, temporarily, its greed for power under the guise of "reform." The media is the only financial winner: scandal coverage boosts ratings and advertising revenue.

Did you know that the current accounting scandals have their origin in government rules? The public needs to know the real cause of the scandals before Washington inflicts yet more damage on our institutions.

First, understand that the bankruptcies of Enron and WorldCom were not caused by how they kept their books. The real scandal is that SEC rules permit the creative accounting which enabled the companies to delay public recognition of their failures for several quarters. Perhaps executives had hopes of turning things around, but the
scene stinks because executives used the borrowed time to sell stock and award themselves bonuses.

Second, understand that adding another layer of rules will not prevent future scandals. Indeed, new rules will contribute to future scandals, just as the existing rules caused this one.

Previous reforms aimed at providing investors with more timely information about the profitability and financial condition of public companies. Thus began the focus on quarterly earnings.

Other reforms tied executive compensation to performance as indicated by the company's stock price. Thus began the use of stock options for executive compensation. (A stock option allows the holder to purchase a specified number of shares at a future date at the price that held when the option was granted. If the share price rises, it
pays to exercise the option.)

Two more reforms completed the refocusing of executive attention to short-run performance as measured by share value. These two reforms were put in place in the early 1990s. One capped the amount of executive salary that could be deducted from taxable income at $1 million. Cash compensation larger than $1 million had to be
justified by performance or paid out of after-tax profits.

The other, and final, foundation stone for the current scandals was put in place by the SEC when that agency changed Rule 16b. Previously, executives who exercised their stock options were required to purchase the stock at the option price and hold it for six months before selling. The SEC changed the rule and permitted executives to
sell the stock the minute they exercised their options, thus eliminating the executives' exposure to the market.

These "reforms" could not have been better designed to produce the current crop of accounting scandals. Reforms tied executive compensation to short-run stock price, not to the health of the company, and SEC rules replaced accounting principles. Misleading accounting is permissible as long as companies and their accountants stay
within the SEC rules.

The old accounting principles were designed to give an accurate picture of financial health. The new rule-based system only requires compliance with rules. As we have again learned, it is possible to comply with the government's rules and still give a misleading picture. Only government does a better job at this kind of financial
dissembling.

Regardless of the contribution made by government rules to the scandal, some executives behaved in ways that are widely regarded as dishonest, if not illegal. Something has happened to the character of people. A shortfall in character cannot be corrected with more rules and punishments.

The character shortage is not limited to the business arena. After the Clinton year, not even the naive can view government as a house of rectitude. Recent books have made it clear that big media is no more worthy of public trust than Janet Reno or Bill Clinton. Not even the government's police agencies can be said to have behaved honorably at Waco and Ruby Ridge, where no one has been held responsible for the government's massacre of innocents.

How can we expect corporate executives, politicians, government officials or anyone to be honest in an era when cheating is rampant in high schools, universities and even the military academies? What happens to character when quotas push less qualified people ahead of the meritorious? When government puts tax penalties on
marriage and thrift?

Character-building institutions such as the Boy Scouts are under attack. Other organizations, whose function was to instill honor and build character, have been pushed off course into political correctness.

Many intellectuals attack character as a social construct that masks an elitist, repressive or hegemonic outlook.

Consequently, we have fewer leaders whose reputation and character are as important to them as their pocketbook.

When character is lost, rules and punishments cannot take its place.

--------------------------------------------------

Ishmael
 
Ishmael said:
At one time a man or womans word were their bond. Words meant something and were followed by deed. Even if the giver of the bond had to suffer in the short term. We didn't need government to know this. Or the law. It was just the way things were.
When was that?
 
Ishmeal:
"At one time a man or womans word were their bond. Words meant something and were followed by deed. Even if the giver of the bond had to suffer in the short term. We didn't need government to know this. Or the law. It was just the way things were."

I'm no expert here but from what I know of sociology and history people have always lied and always broken their oaths.

~edit~
Addendum to the above.
I've also read some evolutionary sociology that suggested that the ability to lie convincingly and keep that information hidden is an important evolutionary trait in all social species.

Chimps. Dolphins. Birds. Bison. Etc.
 
Last edited:
Oh yeah! The good moral days, when women couldn't vote, Blacks were out picking cotton, and children worked in factories 15 hours a day for 10 cents.

The problem couldn't be that government has been lax on corporate crime. Oh no. It's us individual folk and our lack of character that is to blame for the Worldcoms and the Enrons of the world.

Shame on us!
 
Weird Harold, this may be a first, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe most people have always adhered to their word, without outside influence or coercion. The rotten apples of today are no worse than the promise-breakers of yesterday.

I find it interesting that Ishmael's article alludes to witch hunts in its general tsk-tsking of corporate officers. Seems to me that more people broke their word to fellow man and to their God during the witch hunts than during this infestation of greed.
 
Laurel said:
Oh yeah! The good moral days, when women couldn't vote, Blacks were out picking cotton, and children worked in factories 15 hours a day for 10 cents.

The problem couldn't be that government has been lax on corporate crime. Oh no. It's us individual folk and our lack of character that is to blame for the Worldcoms and the Enrons of the world.

Shame on us!
Clever bit of misdirection. That wasn't the point.

Although I will also state that the author's mentioning of Ruby Ridge and Waco were also irrelevant, and explicitly stating that they were "government massacre of innocents" was prejudicial at best.

TB4p
 
Laurel said:
Oh yeah! The good moral days, when women couldn't vote, Blacks were out picking cotton, and children worked in factories 15 hours a day for 10 cents.

The problem couldn't be that government has been lax on corporate crime. Oh no. It's us individual folk and our lack of character that is to blame for the Worldcoms and the Enrons of the world.

Shame on us!

Oh bite me Laurel. Character can remain a constant even with women voting and blacks eating at Mickey D's. One has nothing to do with the other.

Ishmael
 
I wish I lived in a time when your word and a handshake was worth more than a contract(not that contracts are worth much nowadays :)). But that will never happen so I will just continue listening to my grandpa when he tells me about a time when life was less complicated.
 
Never said:
Ishmeal:
"At one time a man or womans word were their bond. Words meant something and were followed by deed. Even if the giver of the bond had to suffer in the short term. We didn't need government to know this. Or the law. It was just the way things were."

I'm no expert here but from what I know of sociology and history people have always lied and always broken their oaths.

~edit~
Addendum to the above.
I've also read some evolutionary sociology that suggested that the ability to lie convincingly and keep that information hidden is an important evolutionary trait in all social species.

Chimps. Dolphins. Birds. Bison. Etc.

Yes, there have always been liars and cheats among us. However, they were usually identified at an early age and were castigated by society in general until they mended their ways.

And society has always been prey to the "rainmakers" and others such as they. But not to the extent we are today.

The article is dead on. Government and law will never replace character.

I've yet to have an animal lie to me and get away with it.

Ishmael
 
Mischka said:
Weird Harold, this may be a first, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe most people have always adhered to their word, without outside influence or coercion. The rotten apples of today are no worse than the promise-breakers of yesterday.

True, there have been scoundrels and honorable people alike in all ages.

However, I was born right at the end of the period I cited and I've watched the proportions of honorable to scoundrel change over my lifetime. When I grduated from High School in 1968, I could still assume that when someone said something that I could take them at their word. Today, I assume that whatever is promised is going to be blown off until an individual proves me wrong.

The principles of ettiquette,honor and personal responsibility I was taught as a child are considered irrelevant by most people I meet on a casual basis. I can't trust auto repairmen to do a complete repair; I can't expect smiling service from most retail clerks; I can't expect punctuality and promptness from people I don't know; and a whole host of other symptoms of failures of honor and personal responsibility.

I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised now, but when I was younger, bad manners, et al, was the surprise -- not the expectation.

Laurel:
Oh yeah! The good moral days, when women couldn't vote, Blacks were out picking cotton, and children worked in factories 15 hours a day for 10 cents.

Things weren't perfect, and "science" promulgated some really stupid premises based on bigotry and Victorian values. However, people were mostly polite and reliable -- a far larger percentage of them than I meet today, at least.
 
Would you mind giving me a time frame for your "better than today" society? I'm having a hard time pinning that down.

[This is directed at Ishmael, not Weird Harold.]
 
Mischka said:
Weird Harold, this may be a first, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe most people have always adhered to their word, without outside influence or coercion. The rotten apples of today are no worse than the promise-breakers of yesterday.

I find it interesting that Ishmael's article alludes to witch hunts in its general tsk-tsking of corporate officers. Seems to me that more people broke their word to fellow man and to their God during the witch hunts than during this infestation of greed.

Mischka, come on. They may have been over the edge, but they were acting on their beliefs. We know that to be BS, but we have the benefit of history, science, and societal evolution

The article DOES NOT claim that there was no wrong done. Legally or ethically. The article merely states that there is nothing that government can do staute wise to 'fix' the problem. It's still "Caveat Emptor".

Ishmael
 
Mischka said:
Would you mind giving me a time frame for your "better than today" society? I'm having a hard time pinning that down.

[This is directed at Ishmael, not Weird Harold.]


I know this isn't directed at me but I will answer anyway... Whats the point of naming the time period? You will find something wrong with it anyway... The easiest time period to cite would be 1922-1955 but that will be shot down because the blacks were still 2nd class citizens. So whats the point in saying a specific time period?
 
Weird Harold said:
The principles of ettiquette,honor and personal responsibility I was taught as a child are considered irrelevant by most people I meet on a casual basis. I can't trust auto repairmen to do a complete repair; I can't expect smiling service from most retail clerks; I can't expect punctuality and promptness from people I don't know; and a whole host of other symptoms of failures of honor and personal responsibility.
Perhaps because I was born in the midst of this downgrade of civilization, I cannot appreciate the differences you've noticed. I still get complete service from my auto repairmen (my oil change shop is amazing); I get smiling service from retail clerks (maybe it's a Texas thing); and I am rarely confronted with late people (outside of my perpetually late mother-in-law).

It's a shame that such an article rings true for you and Ishmael. It sounds so terribly pessimistic, and I cannot even begin to empathize with such a view.
 
SleepingWarrior said:
Whats the point of naming the time period? You will find something wrong with it anyway...
That's my point. Every age is riddled with problems, and to point to today as the worst example of humanity is myopic.
 
Ishmael:
"Yes, there have always been liars and cheats among us. However, they were usually identified at an early age and were castigated by society in general until they mended their ways."


Um, I don't know what you're smoking but I bet it's good. You realize the government has existed in one form or another for thousands of years, right? People have always lied. Have you ever read The Epic of Gilgimesh? The Bible? In the past people lived in tiny villages or 'tiny' cities were everyone had a reputation yet liars, swindlers, and cheats were common place.

"And society has always been prey to the "rainmakers" and others such as they. But not to the extent we are today."
Can you prove that?

"Government and law will never replace character."
I didn't read your article. Why should I move to the second paragraph when the first one is incorrect? I don't remember saying that government and law had anything to do with character so I'm not certain why you're bringing it up now.

"I've yet to have an animal lie to me and get away with it."
You've never spoken to an animal. How could it lie to you?
 
Besides, what about the good vs. bad? You can't beat the shit out of your kids or spouse and get away with it *nowadays*. I'll take that change over a rude retail clerk anyday.

BTW - where was this *old days politeness* when a drunk 50-something man punched me in the nose because his credit card was denied at a store I worked for? As has been said before - the *old days* are always deemed better, people were more polite, honorable. Bull.
 
Mischka said:
Would you mind giving me a time frame for your "better than today" society? I'm having a hard time pinning that down.

[This is directed at Ishmael, not Weird Harold.]

My time frame is approximately the same as WH's.

I graduated HS in '63.

Ishmael

PS. Wh and myself have observed the same events as far as character I think.
 
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