"It was so beautiful today that Camilla...

[Boxlicker101]

To me anyway (and I'm sure I'm not alone), to liken a woman to a dog is far more degrading than likening her to a horse. Yes, ok, they are both insulting and derogatory and shouldn't (on the face of it) be in the slightest funny. But, to me, a woman being called a dog is about as low as anyone can go. It's a highly insulting term here, always has been, as far as I know, anyway. The "horsey" thing is more in jest, and not nearly as nasty.

I've never even been to England, and probably never will be, but I think comparing somebody, man or woman, to a dog is more insulting than comparing them to a horse. Besides that, the horse one is based on a real event, Camilla wearing a straw hat, while the dog one was strictly made up.

I don't know about the weather but it probably wasn't all that beautiful a day anyhow.

 

[Guest]

I've never even been to England, and probably never will be, but I think comparing somebody, man or woman, to a dog is more insulting than comparing them to a horse. Besides that, the horse one is based on a real event, Camilla wearing a straw hat, while the dog one was strictly made up.

I don't know about the weather but it probably wasn't all that beautiful a day anyhow.

Believe me, calling a woman a dog here is the lowest of the low.

Things like, "You're a dog" or, "She's a right dog" are supposed to hurt and insult - there is no joking about it (not in the way that being called a bitch can be - that has many meanings, from sexual references [which can be fun and sexy] to inferring they are "cold-hearted" but "smart" or tough women.)

A "dog" is an ugly/un-clean woman that no "self-repsecting" man would touch with a ten-foot barge-pole. Not at all charming, and has no double meaning, at all.

That's why I cringed at the initial joke in this thread. No other reason.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Believe me, calling a woman a dog here is the lowest of the low.

Things like, "You're a dog" or, "She's a right dog" are supposed to hurt and insult - there is no joking about it (not in the way that being called a bitch can be - that has many meanings, from sexual references [which can be fun and sexy] to inferring they are "cold-hearted" but "smart" or tough women.)

A "dog" is an ugly/un-clean woman that no "self-repsecting" man would touch with a ten-foot barge-pole. Not at all charming, and has no double meaning, at all.

That's why I cringed at the initial joke in this thread. No other reason.

In the US, a dog is a person or thing that is unattractive. That can be a man or woman or a sports team or a stock on the stock market. A stock that is a dog does not increase in value or give dividends. A team that is a dog loses most of their games.

A horse, on the other hand, can be a compliment. If a sports team is said to "have the horses" it means they are good. When an athlete or stock is described as being a horse, it means it is strong and successful. "Horse" is seldom used as in insult although sometimes a person will be described as "horse-faced".

 

[gauchecritic]

Yui

I really meant what I actually typed. The 'US' is so large and varied that it is very difficult to pin a 'culture' on it. I don't think I actually mentioned culture in the first place. But I will stand corrected if needs be.

Ello aunty Loulou.

Sher, it's only escalated into this. You thought it was funny, I didn't. That could have been the end. I'm quite glad it's not I luv argueing. (but I seem to have stumbled into 'being hit on the head lessons')

My assumptions about Letterman's audience are based very much on my arrogance and intellectual snobbery. I'm going to hate myself in the morning but I'm going to hate you more for making me say it.

At a very rough estimate the population of any nation is composed largely (greater than 50%) of people with less than the average IQ. (This doesn't have to be true which is where my political stance comes in) [while I remember for Box promoting free education, no tax for no representation, dismisal of the monarchy as outmoded and a free health service are where I thought Paine and if not Marxism then the broad definition of communism came together] so, unthinking derisory comments about a common target's physiognomy is playing to the base rather than the thinking (wo)man. This then is the difference about which I care and to which Letterman lowers himself.

Comedians (read social commentators) whilst attempting to inform and upgrade the plight of the needy or the grubbing of the rich and powerful don't fall back on stereotyping and ugly jokes when they aren't in vogue..

Which is almlost where I began. How many jokes did Letterman make about 'The Princess of our Hearts'

What's the difference between a Mercedes and a Porsche?

Diana wouldn't be seen dead in a Porsche!

Is that tasteless? Is that common denominator? Did you laugh? Or did you think 'you can't say that about dead people.'

It really doesn't matter what you laugh at just don't give me crap about some great crusade disguised as ugly jokes.

Q-C I have every right to judge anything that I find raises my hackles. Letterman is not a comedian, he's a presenter. He has a team of people writing his material. Those sponsors and advertisers don't give a fig that he promotes ugliness as a usable comedy foil. I disagree completely with their view and the view that Letterman is not the bad guy because he has a hidden agenda behind the ugly jokes. He is dull and old hat and offensive.

How much more reference do you want me to have than having watched 16? 20 hours of repetetiveness. You're defending him like he's the messiah. He's just a presenter still living in the sixties.

(I'm assuming a great deal here but) does he ever make jokes about blacks being well hung or less than human or stupid? Does he do one liners about the Pope promoting sexually transmitted disease? Of course not, but the popular conception of ugly people (hidden agenda or no) are fair game.

 

[shereads]

Believe me, calling a woman a dog here is the lowest of the low.

Things like, "You're a dog" or, "She's a right dog" are supposed to hurt and insult - there is no joking about it (not in the way that being called a bitch can be - that has many meanings, from sexual references [which can be fun and sexy] to inferring they are "cold-hearted" but "smart" or tough women.)

A "dog" is an ugly/un-clean woman that no "self-repsecting" man would touch with a ten-foot barge-pole. Not at all charming, and has no double meaning, at all.

That's why I cringed at the initial joke in this thread. No other reason.

I didn't know that. It would be a much more mean-spirited joke over there, given the more serious nature of "dog" as an insult. On this side of the pond, "she's a real dog" is no more or less insulting than "she's horse-faced." Neither one is a compliment, but if you wanted to tell your granny that the new neighbor is ugly, you could say "she's a dog" and granny wouldn't think you'd said anything dirty. "Bitch" still shocks my mother's generation. It's slightly less shocking to them than "whore" or "slut," which might get you sent to your room if you were foolish enough to blurt it out during a name-calling contest with your sister. To anyone but the elderly, "bitch" has lost a lot of its venom and has almost none of its original implication ("She is as selective in her mating habits as a female poodle") mostly because the word came to be used more often to describe women who are pushy at the office and don't know our place; naturally, women confiscated the word and we use it as a sort of compliment to each other, the way you use "twat." If a stranger calls you a bitch, though, it's still an inso it's an insult, and you should bitch-slap him.



But "dog" as a serious insult? I had no idea. A typical school kid here would know half a dozen crueler ways to call someone unattractive than to call her a dog. And when it's applied to men, as in "that ol' horn-dog" it's means he's indiscriminately attracted to everything female, which is of course a compliment.

The "f" word had a brief moment of television acceptability on an episode of NYPD Blue, back before the Bush era of godliness. The "c" word will not be acceptable here in our lifetime as anything but the most vile insult to which a human being can be subjected.

 

[shereads]

Sher, it's only escalated into this. You thought it was funny, I didn't. That could have been the end.

If you had said, "I don't think it's funny," it would have been.

Let's set aside your claim to intellectual snobbery for a moment; I happen to be all in favor of intellectual snobbery and think the U.S. could use more of it, particularly now.

I'll try being a friendship snob for a moment and point out that when someone shares a joke that you don't find funny, there are a number of ways to respond that won't "escalate" into anything. You're not obligated to laugh. It's even fine to say, "I don't think it's funny." If you are offended by the joke, say so.

I got into a good-natured argument (I hope) with The Earl because he stated "it isn't funny" as if humor is an equation that is either right or wrong. I happen to think that under certain circumstances, people will laugh at almost anything. Lately, I laugh a lot as an alternative to crying. Was it a stupid joke? Absolutely. I laughed at it. The joke is on me. I'm fine with that.

The only way you could have achieved Hitting Over The Head Lessons in this thread, with my participation, is if you chose to express your objection to the joke in the form of an insult. The fastest way to be insulting would be the one you chose: announcing that the person I quoted, someone I obviously admire, appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Do the math. If Letterman audience = Lowest Common Denominator and shereads = Letterman audience, Gauche has just responded to a silly joke with a mean-spirited insult.

I think I took it pretty well. In fact, I wasn't even angry with you until now.

Sod off, Baldrick.

 

[shereads]

He was saying she looks like a horse. It's a running joke in this country and has been about the upper class for generations. Princess Ann is also always likened to a horse. It's not "personal" as such (although I'm sure it could be taken that way), just a dig at the upper class in general.

There's a much nicer way to let someone know she looks like a horse:

"Why the long face, Celine Dion?"

 

[Boxlicker101]

The "f" word had a brief moment of television acceptability on an episode of NYPD Blue, back before the Bush era of godliness. The "c" word will not be acceptable here in our lifetime as anything but the most vile insult to which a human being can be subjected.

I don't think "the f word" has ever had television acceptability although I have heard it a few times on network prime-time shows, especially movies. I'm not sure what you mean by "the c word". There are two possibilities, one of them is a dire insult to a man's masculinity and the other is a vulgar reference to the primary female sex organ and is sometimes used as an insulting reference to a woman or to women in general. I doubt if either will be commonly accepted on prime time network TV during my lifetime, nor will the f word.

 

[shereads]

I don't think "the f word" has ever had television acceptability although I have heard it a few times on network prime-time shows, especially movies. I'm not sure what you mean by "the c word". There are two possibilities, one of them is a dire insult to a man's masculinity and the other is a vulgar reference to the primary female sex organ and is sometimes used as an insulting reference to a woman or to women in general. I doubt if either will be commonly accepted on prime time network TV during my lifetime, nor will the f word.

By "brief acceptability" I meant that "fuck" got past the network censors, along with "asshole" and "shit" during a season of NYPD Blue that should go down in network TV history as the first time actors portraying inner-city police detectives were allowed to use realistic language. The "f" word will be back, but not until the evangelists and their toadies in government have loosened their death grip on our morals.

I don't think the "c" word will make it, or that most men can ever fully appreciate how ashamed girls feel when they realize that "cunt" is a both a slang word for their private parts, and a nasty insult reserved for people who are beneath contempt.

I didn't know until recently that "pudenda" is a Latin description meaning "worthy of shame."

What did we do to make men so mad?

 

[LadyJeanne]

By "brief acceptability" I meant that "fuck" got past the network censors, along with "asshole" and "shit" during a season of NYPD Blue that should go down in network TV history as the first time actors portraying inner-city police detectives were allowed to use realistic language. The "f" word will be back, but not until the evangelists and their toadies in government have loosened their death grip on our morals.

I don't think the "c" word will make it, or that most men can ever fully appreciate how ashamed girls feel when they realize that "cunt" is a both a slang word for their private parts, and a nasty insult reserved for people who are beneath contempt.

I didn't know until recently that "pudenda" is a Latin description meaning "worthy of shame."

What did we do to make men so mad?

They need us.

 

[Guest]

There's a much nicer way to let someone know she looks like a horse:

"Why the long face, Celine Dion?"

Oh DAMN!


Just spewed ice tea all over my computer screen.


(She - you bitch!)

 

[rgraham666]

They need us.

They don't need me, apparently.

 

[shereads]

Oh DAMN!


Just spewed ice tea all over my computer screen.


(She - you bitch!)

I know. That's what happened to me when Lou quoted that bit about Camilla eating her straw hat.

Welcome to the lowest common denominator.

 

[shereads]

In the US, a dog is a person or thing that is unattractive. That can be a man or woman or a sports team or a stock on the stock market. A stock that is a dog does not increase in value or give dividends. A team that is a dog loses most of their games.

Please note that Dave didn't call Camilla a dog. He said she caught a Frisbee in her mouth. If you were a long-time fan of Dave's, you'd know that he holds dogs in high regard, and devotes a few episode each year champion Frisbee dogs.

He once made such a fuss over a Stupid Pet Tricks winner, getting down in its face to talk baby-talk and make kissy-noises, that the animal became alarmed and bit Dave's nose. Dave was nicer about the wound to his nose than Gauche was about my silly thread.

His own dogs, Bob and Stan Letterman, passed away a couple of years ago. Like so many people, he has tried to replace them by fathering a child. (It won't work. Children grow up.)

I have no idea what he thinks of horses.

 

[TheEarl]

Please note that Dave didn't call Camilla a dog. He said she caught a Frisbee in her mouth. If you were a long-time fan of Dave's, you'd know that he holds dogs in high regard, and devotes a few episode each year champion Frisbee dogs.

I tried so hard to leave.

What is the difference between calling Camilla a dog and insinuating that she's a dog by saying she carries out actions associated with a dog?

Please note, before the provenance of my remark is called into question: I have never seen Letterman and have no idea of his opinions on dogs and frisbees other than what you've just told us.

The Earl

 

[shereads]

I tried so hard to leave.

What is the difference between calling Camilla a dog and insinuating that she's a dog by saying she carries out actions associated with a dog?

Jesus Christ.

Earl, there is no difference. I know there is no difference. By pretending that I don't know, I am attempting to illustrate in a sarcastic manner one of the characteristics of this thread. It's meant as a joke. You just delivered the punchline. (You did that on purpose, right? Otherwise I can no longer rely on you as my personal humor mentor.)

Before I stop attempting to justify the twenty seconds of my life that it took to post that %$# joke, I have one question:

Where do you stand on the straw-hat joke?

What I'm hearing from Lou and Box is that Camilla can be compared to horses, but not to dogs. I'm hoping we can agree on a forum jokes standard, but the criteria will need to be clear and cross-cultural.

 

[TheEarl]

Jesus Christ.

Earl, there is no difference. I know there is no difference. By pretending that I don't know, I am attempting to illustrate in a sarcastic manner one of the characteristics of this thread. You just delivered the punchline. (I hope you did that on purpose. Otherwise I can no longer rely on you as my humor mentor.)

Before I stop attempting to justify the twenty seconds of my life that it took to post that %$# joke, I have one question: Where do you stand on the straw-hat joke? What I'm hearing from Lou and Box is that Camilla can be compared to horses, but not to dogs. I'm hoping we can agree on a forum jokes standard, but the criteria will need to be clear and cross-cultural.

Oh for Christ's sake, can you stop acting so superior. I have been up for 36 hours. I have listened to you criticise me for stating that I thought Letterman's joke was a cheap shot. I have listened to you talk bollocks about how Letterman's attitude towards his guests makes it okay for him to make cheap shots at famous people. I have heard you yell at me for daring to criticise Letterman on the basis of the text which you presented me with and I have heard you insist that I am not allowed to comment until I can type out the Ministry Of Silly Walks sketch.

With the bollocks that you have spouted so far on this subject, I wouldn't have put it past you to have been seriously defending Letterman because he likes dogs and frisbees.

I have a headache. I'm bored as buggery and I'm tired as hell. Yet, for some reason, my brain isn't letting me go to bed, because it's insisting that I need to physically torture myself in order so that my body feels as bad as my mind does right now.

I have dealt with the snippy comments about me being your 'humour mentor', the pseudo-reasonable requests to 'type out Monty Python so it's funny in text' and your Dadaist interpretations of Letterman's intentions in delivering a cheap one-liner. Please, can you reel your head in and stop trying to be such a bloody intelligentsia.

I had thoughts of just deleting this whole post and starting again, as this has come out on the fly and I have no doubt it's brimming with logic holes and stuffed full of vitriol. But sod it. It's goen now.

The Earl

 

[shereads]

Oh for Christ's sake, can you stop acting so superior.

Are you sure it's an act?

I give myself points today for being kind to you and Gauche despite the condescending nature of your opening post and the insulting nature of his. I welcomed the chance to have a genuine discussion of what makes things funny to some people and not to others. You replied with a series of variations on "That's not true," leading to the natural assumption that you consider your opinion on something that is purely subjective to be an indisputable fact. I didn't make you the butt of a joke. You did. I haven't had many lighthearted moments lately, or enjoyed being here very much. For a few hours there, it was almost fun. Thank you for setting me straight.

 

[TheEarl]

Superior to me, no, I have no doubt it's not an act. I am not at my best atm and even if I was, I wouldn't put myself up against a 3 y/o child.

Superior to everyone else, yes, I'm absolutely certain it's an act.

I actually came back her to apologise. But fuck you.

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

Are you sure it's an act?

I give myself points today for being kind to you and Gauche despite the condescending nature of your opening post and the insulting nature of his. I welcomed the chance to have a genuine discussion of what makes things funny to some people and not to others. You replied with a series of variations on "That's not true," leading to the natural assumption that you consider your opinion on something that is purely subjective to be an indisputable fact. I didn't make you the butt of a joke. You did. I haven't had many lighthearted moments lately, or enjoyed being here very much. For a few hours there, it was almost fun. Thank you for setting me straight.

Well, I'm sure that the points you give yourself will help the feeling of superiority. My God, how big is your ego? You're lowering yourself to be kind to we mere mortals. How very gracious of you.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

<Mum mode>

Right, enough is enough. If you two don't stop this right now, I'm going to bang your heads together.

Earl, go to your room. You're getting no sweets for a week.

Sher, young lady, I'll deal with you later.

</Mum mode>

For fucks sake! This is ridiculous. All this about a joke. A joke that one person "got" and found funny, who thought others might appreciate her sharing it. Others didn't "get" it, so she then had to defend why she found it funny, and found herself being insulted in the process.

Can you not see that?

Why the name calling? Why the put-downs? It's all over NOTHING!

I must admit, the word frisbee does hit my funny bone. But, I didn't laugh at the joke because Camilla, the poor cow, was being likened to a dog. That's it. No analysing from me about why not, or about the audience of the show. I stated simply and clearly why I didn't like the joke.

The straw hat one, on the other hand, that made me guffaw. Yes, not a snigger or a chortle, but a guffaw.

<Mum mode>

Now, come on, let's all be friends. Give each other a hug, come on, you know you want to really.

*mutters* Kids today. They'll bicker about the silliest things.

</Mum mode>

Lou

P.S. Who laughed at the bit where I referred to Camilla as a "poor cow"? C'mon, own up.

 

[jfinn]

Lurker in the the third balcony timidly raises hand.

Jayne

 

[Guest]

<Mum mode>

P.S. Who laughed at the bit where I referred to Camilla as a "poor cow"? C'mon, own up.

Me.

But then I loved the straw hat bit, too.

I also laughed at the frisbee joke, and the Grand Theft Election, and the Jeb Bin Laden smarter brother.

I think I'm going to go back to bed.

 

[BlackShanglan]

" ... there is no wit but cruelty in pointing a man's weakness, who cannot correct it." -- (someone masquerading as Alexander Pope)

First point to The Earl. But ...

Letterman is also fond of the "isn't this a crap joke?" joke. Ironically, it's quite a lot like the joke Gauche referenced in the Python sketch - a joke that mocks the smarmy, ha-ha presence of the presenter himself. This is a piece with the humor of someone who makes "Stupid Pet Tricks" a key part of the show and on one occasion discoursed on the warm, supportive feeling of having the entire studio audience come together as one and give him the finger.

Letterman has his good days and his bad days. Hardly surprisingly given the sheer bulk of work he does. I love "Have I Got News for You?," but it doesn't run as many hours a week as Letterman does, and so it works differently. Someone who presents as much as Letterman does will need a staff, and will have roughly the same talent spread a great deal thinner. He comes up with some decent gags now and then, nonetheless.

Having not seen the snip in question, I can't really say whether it's funny or not. I'd have to see Letterman do it. As The Earl points out, devoid of delivery and context, it's a cheap and dull gag. But as Shereads points out (implicitly, one might argue), it's a bit unreasonable to expect the joke to sparkle totally devoid of all of the elements that originally made it funny. Counter-point to The Earl for the implied "then why did you post it where it couldn't have all of that context and delivery?"; indeed, the joke becomes something other than it was.

Possibly this is why my favorite jokes are of the anonymous, "a man walks into a bar" variety. But I hope that we can at least all enjoy "Catch-22" as a standard for something genuinely funny.

Shanglan

 

[shereads]

My God, how big is your ego?

I'm glad you asked. My ego is the size of Prince Charles' ears. And you're adorable when you're frothing at the mouth.