Issues only indirectly related to the Poetry 0, 1, 2... series of posts

[Senna Jawa]

I am about to post "Poetry -- 0. ...", and I hope to continue with "Poetry -- 1. ...", etc. If you have anything pertinent to add, or pertinent questions, or comments, please do in the relevant, consequtive thread, under the consecutive "Poetry--0. ... etc. post.

But if you have some formal questions, doubts or points to raise, e.g. if you want to tell me things about me which I should be aware of (that I am nasty, stupid, arogant, don't know anything, and who am I to write such a series), or if you want to say that other things are more important, more interesting, that we should read something else, that there are already good materials in Literotica archives..., or ... whatever is not directly and constructively realted to the series, pleaser write it in this thread or create your own new threads, just don't mess up the series.

By the same token, if you surprisingly feel like saying good things about the series, still don't mess it up, say it here, if you have to, not in the series itself. In the series itself let's be purely meritoric.

Regards,

 

[WickedEve]

Not that you need any encouragement, but I look forward to more of what I read in Poetry -- 0. Perhaps, when you have finished with the series they could be combined into one post and we can get Laurel to do a sticky to keep it at the top of the forum.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Ditto. Thoroughly enjoyed v.0.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Not that you need any encouragement, but I look forward to more of what I read in Poetry -- 0. Perhaps, when you have finished with the series they could be combined into one post and we can get Laurel to do a sticky to keep it at the top of the forum.

Eve, perhaps I am a monster as you paint me, but a social monster. I do thank you and Lauren for encouragement, it motivates me.

I have completed the last paragraph of "Poetry -- 0. ...". for my peace of mind let me copy it here too:

There are certain issues, like historical, which I will have to touch upon, but I will not stress them. It's beyond my goal, and I am not knowlegdeable about them. In particular, I will not write about different poetic schools, or about fleeting views, which are not basic, when they do not transcend time. I will also omit topics like different forms and different metric standards. I'll concentrate on what is at the core of poetry, on what does not change when we cross borders in time and space and between different languages.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

frustration

I wrote, using the Literotica editor, "Poetry -- 1. ..." but it got gobbled by the system, which just told me "invalid link, blah blah blah". 3-4 hours of intensive writing went down the drain.

Oh well, now I will write it faster. But first I will get some sleep. Then I will write it off line (I hate writing off line).

Now everything looks fine, I am able to preview this text. I have no idea what went wrong earlier.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: frustration

I wrote, using the Literotica editor, "Poetry -- 1. ..." but it got gobbled by the system, which just told me "invalid link, blah blah blah". 3-4 hours of intensive writing went down the drain.

Oh well, now I will write it faster. But first I will get some sleep. Then I will write it off line (I hate writing off line).

Now everything looks fine, I am able to preview this text. I have no idea what went wrong earlier.

I've had that happen when doing a review of new poems. I've spent an hour or so writing and then it's gone. So now I always highlight and copy before clicking submit just incase something goes wrong. If there is a problem then I can just paste it and try again.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Yeah, unless friggin' i.e. has some kind of fatal error and shuts down taking your saved highlighted text with it three times before you decide it's better to paste it in a word file just in case... *grumbles*

 

[WickedEve]

Well, I just finished the new poems thingy and I pasted it in a new message in my outlook express and saved it first -- just incase one of my rugrats turns the computer off again. lol

 

[OT]

YIKES, you guys scare me.

Editing directly in the program? Very brave or very foolish.

Computers, nor the programs that run in them, nor the programmers who program the programs that run them can be trusted. (I'm sometimes a programmer, so am qualified and allowed to trash the profession )

If you are typing more than a phrase or two, offline is the only way to go. (And even off-line, Save-Early-Save-Often should be your credo) There are a few lightweight FREE editors floating around the net that even have built in Spell Check if the reason for hating off line editing is clunky MSWord.

But I digress... the reason I stopped by was to tell SJ, that I'm looking forward to the other parts. If they will all be along shortly, then I'd rather absorb them all before asking for clarification on a quibble I have with Part 0.

 

[Mythos50]

Senna,

Senna,
Is "Translations" a part of "Poetry 0, Poetry 1" or a separate entity onto itself?

I am just wondering about its placement in the scheme of your outline.

Thank you.

PS - I posted to P0-P1 before reading this thread. I hope I have not disrupted your flow. Sorry!

 

[Guest]

I am about to post "Poetry -- 0. ...", and I hope to continue with "Poetry -- 1. ...", etc. If you have anything pertinent to add, or pertinent questions, or comments, please do in the relevant, consequtive thread, under the consecutive "Poetry--0. ... etc. post.

But if you have some formal questions, doubts or points to raise, e.g. if you want to tell me things about me which I should be aware of (that I am nasty, stupid, arogant, don't know anything, and who am I to write such a series), or if you want to say that other things are more important, more interesting, that we should read something else, that there are already good materials in Literotica archives..., or ... whatever is not directly and constructively realted to the series, pleaser write it in this thread or create your own new threads, just don't mess up the series.

By the same token, if you surprisingly feel like saying good things about the series, still don't mess it up, say it here, if you have to, not in the series itself. In the series itself let's be purely meritoric.

Regards,

uh oh... I wish I had read this cautionary statement BEFORE I read the Poetry--0, --1 thread... because it seems I posted in the wrong place. Sorry.
--Xtaabay

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Senna,

Senna,
Is "Translations" a part of "Poetry 0, Poetry 1" or a separate entity onto itself?

It is a part of "Poetry 0. ...". And that 0th part stands a little aside from the rest (which is still to be written).

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

At a snail pace

I have written anew a part of what I lost, and am about to post it. It is only a fraction of even just "Poetry 1. ...", which I will continue.

Treat it as very early pointers, sketches, which will attain full(er) meaning only after more is written, a lot more. This series is an open end project anyway.

See how Harold Henderson reads a poem, it is a pleasure to watch him making a point after a point. Obviously the meaning of a good poem depends on the notion of a good reader. What is a good poem for poor readers is an awful poem for good readers, and vice versa. (Henderson had shown that the poem in question is quite good but still not up to the really ambitious standard).

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Awen: Are poets born or taught?

Awen, I wish you asked your question here, since it does not directly relate to "Poetry -- 1. Poetry's source, goal and ethics", this question is way too general.

Are musicians, virtuoso and composers, born or taught? We know that one has to be both, one has to be born a musician and taught. The best ones practise six and more hours a day, starting in childhood. Composers study. Virtuosos study, they have teachers. Composers have teachers. It is unthinkable for a layman, who didn't spend thousands of intensive hours on practising her/his art to give a meaningful concert. It is true about the classical music and equally true about jazz--it is fascinating to read how black musicians were learning one from another, how they were starting to play in bands, with their elders, as young kids, and then systematically progressing to more advanced bands. It is exciting to read how the best American (from the US) jazzmen would learn this and that from jazzmen from the Central and South America, etc. Chopin would keep studying Bach and Mozart even when he himself was already an accomplished (and even recognized) composer. And so it goes.

But in poetry, authors who know next to nothing about poems by the best poets of the past, would consider their farts to be as poetic as anything, because their farts come from their hearts.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Ezra Pound about poetry and music--a quote

Don't imagine that the art of poetry is any simpler than the art of music, or that you can please the expert before you have spent at least as much effort on the art of verse as the average piano teacher spends on the art of music.

(See page 5 of Literary Essays of Ezra Pound, published by "A New Directions Book", ISBN: 0-8112-0157-0, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 54-7905).

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I have a couple of questions, both of them to do with the nature of 'nature'. You say in Poetry -- 0:

• Be outdoors a lot.
• Observe, be preoccupied with the outer world...

In Poetry -- 1 your basic premise is Man is a particle of Nature.

So I must ask. What is nature? This question couldn't have been made by Chinese and Japanese poets over two thousand years ago, because there was always a clear and indisputable distinction, but what about today, or in a foreseenable future? Technology has and will continue to alter the visible surface of the world as well as the way it's apprehended. The physical shape of the world has been or could predictably become radically different from any previous experience, or shattered from cognizant reality as we know it. More and more, people are living in and through man-made environments and concepts. Television, cinema, cyberspace. For many of us, cityscapes and other people are the only known boundaries to livingspace. The fast moving traffic lanes and the encaging steel structure of automobiles are much more present and real than any recollection of 'nature'. Will there be poetry in International Space Station?

The day you posted Poetry -- 0 I read something, obviously written by a city-dweller: It was a life that wore you out, used up every ounce of your energy, and kept you profoundly, unquestionably happy. In the literal sense of the word, it stupefied you. The long days it the fields [...] lulled you into an almost beastlike heaviness. Your wits seemed to thicken, just as your skin did, in the rain and sunshine and perpectual fresh air.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I have a couple of questions, both of them to do with the nature of 'nature'. You say in Poetry -- 0:

• Be outdoors a lot.
• Observe, be preoccupied with the outer world...

In Poetry -- 1 your basic premise is Man is a particle of Nature.

So I must ask. What is nature?[/i]

This is a basic question. Cities, streets, cars, highways, bridges, buildings, factories, furniture, clothes, airports, carwash facilities... it's all Nature. Today horses are exotic, while cars and airplanes are what horses used to be in the past.

I was about to write about it and will in the "Poetry 1. ...." thread (I had it already in the earlier note which got swallowed by the system). I wrote about it also in the Polish version posted a few months ago. But I am not translating my previous text, I am writing it anew, even if they are by necessity similar.

(BTW, your question, Lauren, was directly related to the "Poetry 1. ...." note, how nice ).

Thank you, regards,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Thanks. Yes, I'm very nice.

Ok, let me take it one step further, then. Let me assume that what you call nature is, in fact, the surrounding environment. Is it possible for a poet to mentaly position himself at the centre of his own mind and write about his own inner conflicts and his boring inner world but in a detached way, as if observing a like a car, a tree, a dog? Can his inner world be his surrounding environment, his 'nature'? And wouldn't this mean that perhaps the key to poetry is the approach to any subject, rather than the subject itself?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Thanks. Yes, I'm very nice.

Incredibly nice.

Ok, let me take it one step further, then. Let me assume that what you call nature is, in fact, the surrounding environment. Is it possible for a poet to mentaly position himself at the centre of his own mind and write about his own inner conflicts and his boring inner world but in a detached way, as if observing a like a car, a tree, a dog? Can his inner world be his surrounding environment, his 'nature'? And wouldn't this mean that perhaps the key to poetry is the approach to any subject, rather than the subject itself?

You are asking very basic questions (and getting ahead of me ). There are consecutive answers on consecutive levels.

In (the best) ancient Chinese poems they wouldn't say I felt deep sorrow, but: my shirt was soaking in my tears.

How do you describe "inner self"? Poetry doesn't have any language to do it directly. It doesn't have any abstract notions. In a (good) poem you do it indirectly. You cannot describe your inner self but you can describe your table. With a bit of talent this will tell us about the inner self. It is called juxtaposition. Actually, your poetic drive and instinct aims and directs you toward such symptoms and away from any attempts to precisely describe the true inner self (there is no such thing anyway, and there is no such poetic thing especially)--such things just don't exist (to you and in general).

But you are right, Lauren, human emotions can be viewed with detachment, as any other objective event or item. And what is detachment? It is related to objectiveness, meaning avoiding any opinions, any judgments. (Well, there is more to it, the inner distance).

Basho, late in his life, had attached importance to detachment in poetry. Since Man is but a particle of Nature, it cannot be any other way.

Regards,

 

[darkmaas]

poetic ethics

Let me begin by saying that I loved your plug for translation as a tool for improving poetic skills and awareness of subtle meaning shifts. Perhaps we need a poetry translation challenge. Hmmm..

I have been holding my breath waiting for Poetry -- 1.

Let me cut to the chase.

“The source: ...Man is a particle of Nature.” Great place to start. The use of “particle” perhaps shades the meaning but discussions of the meaning of “nature”, although critical to the ultimate utility of these "truths", are premature until you expand on "the source".

“The goal: ...to evoke deep, subtle feelings, a transcendental reflection.” Spot on. This statement is worth the price of admission. I would have stated it more forcefully but I am apt to be hyperbolic. I am taking “transcendental reflection” in its literal sense and not as a 7 syllable equivalent to meditation. I trust that you would allow “that an explosion of meaning from a few simple words” would still fall into the notion of transcendental reflection.

So far so good.

Then we come to,

“The poetic ethics: ...exactly one commandment:

every element of a poem has to contribute
to the poetic effect, has to carry poetry.”

Why?

If the goal is to evoke deep feelings, surely there should be no "ethical" constraints on the “how”. Your “ethical” statement leads straight to a style of poetry that is lean, spare and in the hands of a master, transcendental. However the application of the single commandment does not necessarily lead to good poetry nor is it the only route to your goal as I see it.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the goal or am reading to much into the concept of poetic ethics, so I’ll stop for the moment to allow you a chance to clarify the goal or defend the notion of ethics.

Respectfully, (very respectfully),

darkmaas

 

[Lauren Hynde]

First, let me apologize if I'm getting ahead of you. If you feel like I'm getting into a subject that will be approached later, just shush me. I'm not saying I'll shush, 'cause this is so much fun, but I'll think about it...

Thank you for your answers. They are pretty much what I expected. Let me throw in a little provocation in to it and see what happens.

Originally posted by Senna Jawa
In (the best) ancient Chinese poems they wouldn't say I felt deep sorrow, but: my shirt was soaking in my tears.

How do you describe "inner self"? [...] your poetic drive and instinct aims and directs you toward such symptoms and away from any attempts to precisely describe the true inner self (there is no such thing anyway, and there is no such poetic thing especially)--such things just don't exist (to you and in general)

Is it just me, or does this make (the best) ancient Chinese poetry a tad histrionic? I mean, just because I feel deep sorrow, it doesn't mean I crying my heart out. Why do symptoms even have to exist in the first place? The most sublime of emotional tourbillions could exist deep within me without ever surfacing. "The poet is a fake. / His faking seems so real / That he will fake the ache / Which he can really feel.".

In Poetry – 0 you said you'd concentrate on what is at the core of poetry, on what does not change when we cross borders in time and space and between different languages. But doesn't this my shirt was soaking in my tears business strike you as completely disjointed from the contemporary aesthetic system?

-------

Darkmaas makes a few good points. Maybe I did jump my gun, but 'Man is a particle of Nature' was presented in such a steadfast quasi-axiom, that I couldn't resist. (I essentially have no bicker with its spirit; only with the phrasing.)

The goal, the poetic ethics, I have absolutely no problem with it. I actually agree with the One Commandment (I also like this expression, it has a nice Lord of the Rings feel to it lol).

every element of a poem has to contribute
to the poetic effect, has to carry poetry.

Great! The only thing is, Senna, I believe you're misinterpreting your own philosophy when you defend such a restrictive boundary for what's poetry and not. You try to guide us into accepting the time proofed oriental stripped writing style as the closest to poetic perfection, but, like darkmaas, I'm failing (for now) to see how does western poetry fall short of these goals and ethics.

Despite what you might think, my inner world does exist. There's a string of consciousness, images and thoughts that makes me what I am. Can't I objectively describe this string and use it to evoke deep, subtle feelings, a transcendental reflection? And, let me ask you this, is this rational and/or emotion chain that constitutes the inner me and that it's being rebuilt every time, pure and void of artifices? Isn't there a multitude of layers of consciousness at work right now, in my mind, and if translated into paper, wouldn't this result in expendable elements? But still, they do have a purpose... They contribute to portrait the tangle within.

 

[Senna Jawa]

interacting and sharing

Lauren, it's fine to get ahead of me. I want to share my views in the first place. Writing a pristine, well composed essay somehow stubbornly does not happen to me anyway, and it has a lesser priority.

I am by necessity expressing myself in shortcuts. Of course "my shirt was soaking in my tears" is not equivalent to "I felt deep sorrow". The first one is one of the many possible ways in which "deep sorrow" may show itself. That's one of the big differences. The expression with the shirt is specific. The sorrow expression is general, or what is the same, abstract.

And it is true, and nothing wrong with the fact that profused crying may only mean a person's propensity for crying (however the full context of the poem may tell us a bit more).

I have tio disagree about things without external symptoms whatsoever. The symptoms may be subtle, and that's all you need in a poem. But when there are none that thing doesn't exist.

Anyway, the strong poems are based on sharp observations, on author's poetic eye, supported by poetic technique. Generalities and opinions/judgements are poetically useless and disgusting.

(A character in a poem, possibly the lyrical subject of the poem, may give us hints of talking in generalities. But then the point should be to present that character and not to spill the generalities or opinions themselves for their own sake).

Darkmaas & Lauren, the ethical commandment didn't state that every element of a poem has to contribute new information or meaning. Then your objections would be justified. Poetry, as you know, is much more than just passing information. words can be also used to create melody, mood, style... This justifies repetitions and quasi-repetitions, overlaps of meaning, etc.

Example: in many tribes an elder can say something like this:

        I say, we go North, I said.

And this is poetic.

On the other hand, yes, uncalled for overlap of information is a common weakness of many poems. It is just one kind of violating the poetry's ethics. Equally annoying are "explanations". Something like:

   he left the room because he didn't like her

The poetic impotence of such a phrase is clear.

Also, "deep sorrow" kind of expressions have most of the time nothing to do with poetry. They violate the premise of poetry, about the Man and Nature, and they violate the ethical commandment.

Every time you use a word just to fulfill your rhyming scheme or meter or grammar or logic (sens), you are not poetically honest--every element of a poem has to contribute to poetry. Defensive usages are not good enough.

So, Lauren, I don't think that I misinterpret my own statements (sometimes or even often I do a poor job of presenting the ideas).

Best regards,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: interacting and sharing

Darkmaas & Lauren, the ethical commandment didn't state that every element of a poem has to contribute new information or meaning.

Exactly my point. Thanks for making that clearer.

You'll still need to explain why do expressions like 'deep sorrow' violate the premise of poetry.

 

[karmadog]

How do you describe "inner self"? Poetry doesn't have any language to do it directly. It doesn't have any abstract notions.

It's interesting how much of your post, like that quote, reflect the philosophy of the Behaviorist school of psychology.

I recall when we were being taught this theory, how angry many of the students were because they felt that their ever so important 'minds', 'spirits', or 'souls' were being discounted as though they didn't exist. Of course, no one was suggesting that, but many students were angry and offended just the same.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many poets are upset by your apparent discounting of their 'inner' lives.

In the end, I think what both groups might find upsetting is the dry and scientific tone rather than the content.

Perhaps you are coming at your meaning from the wrong angle as I believe psych professor did.

 

[Mythos50]

Senna, does this illustrate or not at all?

A particle decided to change from his spot
To travel through time to another space
Unraveling the threads he only could find
His place in the universe already divine.

= = = = =
No, it does not illustrate, for I have imposed my own will, I have not observed it's own nature and I have brought nothing of newness for the reader to observe.

My apologies.