ISO 7 layer model

[VSE]

Ok, this may be a little wierd as a howto question.

I have a tech issue that I, personally, understand full well. I however am working to pay the bills in a "technical support" department paying peanuts.

As you guys are at least computer users where you can log into here without getting a BSOD I'd just like to ask that if I were to mention the ISO 7 layer model would you have any idea what I am on about?

 

[cuz cracker]

i have heard of it. i do not remember what the hell it is.

layered security specification requirements?

 

[PhilLusty]

Ok, this may be a little wierd as a howto question.

I have a tech issue that I, personally, understand full well. I however am working to pay the bills in a "technical support" department paying peanuts.

As you guys are at least computer users where you can log into here without getting a BSOD I'd just like to ask that if I were to mention the ISO 7 layer model would you have any idea what I am on about?

is that a burrito at taco bell?

LMAO
PHIL

 

[PhilLusty]

i have heard of it. i do not remember what the hell it is.

layered security specification requirements?

Dude love the av!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[VSE]

lol!

That is a nice AV, thats my fantasy for this evening sorted

 

[P. B. Walker]

Originally posted by VSE
Ok, this may be a little wierd as a howto question.

I have a tech issue that I, personally, understand full well. I however am working to pay the bills in a "technical support" department paying peanuts.

As you guys are at least computer users where you can log into here without getting a BSOD I'd just like to ask that if I were to mention the ISO 7 layer model would you have any idea what I am on about?

I would. I have degree in Comp Sci, which included a class in network program. Plus I work with interactive computer simulations.

 

[VSE]

OK einstein the object here, other than a straight yes or no is to go "yes the ISO 7 layer describes....."

(I dont have a degree you can make it simple if you want )

 

[Bobmi357]

The ISO 7 Layer model describes the underlying communications protocols used by computers. It is in essence, what makes the internet work.

Each layer of the model describes another degree of complexity.

The seven layers are;

7 Application layer
6 Presentation Layer
5 Session Layer
4 Transport Layer
3 Network Layer
2 Link Layer
1 Physical Layer

Each layer controls a different aspect of the communications task. The upper most layer has expanded in recent years and there has been some grumbling about increasing the number of layers in the ISO model to encompass additional protocols but its been held to 7 layers so far.

As far as most people are concerned, things like web browsing, email, newsgroups and the like all happen at the topmost layer.

Its a rare day that people other than those like myself (in the industry) hear about, or get involved in anything below the top layer.

 

[webber1998]

Absolutey ..but small modification... REAL computer geek here.. OSI(open systems interconnection) model 7 that was adopted by the ISO (international standards organization) that outlines the 7 different layers of interworking between computer networks. From the physical level to the application level.

 

[VSE]

The ISO 7 Layer model describes the underlying communications protocols used by computers. It is in essence, what makes the internet work

Damn you Always the voice of reason. More specific an answer than I wanted, but perfectly correct.

I'm trying to write something concerning another protocol, basically bluetooth. Using the ISO model to explain it, based on the above and the basis I dont think you should oversimplify things for people who should really know how concepts such as these should can be explained.

REAL computer geek here

Could tell by the explanation . Think wider, describe it for a non computer geek working in the "IT industry".

Really not trying to be funny. I am using the model as an example to illustrate something, not least because people working at thing level should know what it is, though I suspect 99% of them dont.

 

[Bobmi357]

I'll have to admit, I know little about bluetooth, but one gets involved only in those things people are willing to pay for and so far, not one of my clients has had any bluetooth requirements for me to worry about.

Stonestreet One has an interesting description of bluetooth, which if I'm reading it correctly seems to be totally independant of normal net protocols. So either this is being done entirely at the application layer of the ISO 7 model, or they are talking about a totally different stack of protocols.

http://www.stonestreetone.com/bluetooth/products/stack/index.shtml

 

[webber1998]

It basically describes the waythat data should be transported on a network.

the physical layer...howthe data is sent in 0/1...whether data is one way or two way, the electrical signals...

data layer... what kind of data is being sent and puts the bits together to form characters/data/packets verifies if the data is received correctly.

network layer.. transmission of the data..how to get from one point to the other...routing...

transport..takes care of ensuring that data is sent correctly from point a to point b...retransmissions....etc...

session... fake...not really used...does sync for each stream of data being sent on the network.

presentation ... another fake, not really used..

Application layer...email...etc... how the data is presented....

So the *MODEL* is basically an outline of how data should be transported from the physical level ( the electrical signals that are sent on a wire, for instance) packetized into data, verified for correctness, forwarded to another point on the network and forwarded to the endpoint ( terminal, email etc etc )

 

[VSE]

I'll have to admit, I know little about bluetooth

In some respects thats the point. That it is bluetooth should be irrelevant, the ISO model shoud be sufficient to cover it, hence my attempt to explain it is poor despite trying to use a protocol independant model to do so. (not trying to be funny, that you dont "get it" tells me I'm doing something wrong, you provide the best pointers on here I know).

So the *MODEL* is basically an outline of how data should be transported from the physical level ( the electrical signals that are sent on a wire, for instance) packetized into data, verified for correctness, forwarded to another point on the network and forwarded to the endpoint ( terminal, email etc etc )

Ok, but you're like me, a "geek" If I was to say that layers 1-6 (in my example) represent bluetooth and Layer 7 represents, say a phone talking to a PDA would that make sense?

 

[MagicFingers]

Ok, this may be a little wierd as a howto question.

I have a tech issue that I, personally, understand full well. I however am working to pay the bills in a "technical support" department paying peanuts.

As you guys are at least computer users where you can log into here without getting a BSOD I'd just like to ask that if I were to mention the ISO 7 layer model would you have any idea what I am on about?

Please
Do
Not
Throw
Sausage
Pizza
Away

Physical
Data Link
Network
Transport
Session
Presentation
Software
OK, It's upside down.
Now, can you tell me how to pass the 70-215 test???

 

[VSE]

Now, can you tell me how to pass the 70-215 test

I have no idea.

Ok, heres the deal. I know perfectly well what the 7 layer model is. I do thank everyone who's replied so far though as you've illustrated that I have a problem communicating what I am trying to achieve, and that by using it I am either going to totally alienate the people I want to help or (and no offense intended) make everyone else feel like smartarse for knowing what it is and in the process possibly make them miss the point simply by them getting the 7 layer model.

I know I havent presented the full details of what I'd written for the people I work with, I just wanted to try the waters using what I think is probably a representative sample.

 

[Bobmi357]

In some respects thats the point. That it is bluetooth should be irrelevant, the ISO model shoud be sufficient to cover it, hence my attempt to explain it is poor despite trying to use a protocol independant model to do so. (not trying to be funny, that you dont "get it" tells me I'm doing something wrong, you provide the best pointers on here I know).

I think its going to depend on your audience. I've worked the lower protocols, in fact, back in the early 80's I was on the committee that reviewed and approved ARP. (it was one way my company wanted to be seen as progressive, so I got volunteered for it, no additional pay of course).

I've been in this business since the days when the first home computers were mostly home built, and if you had 2K of ram in your machine, people thought you had a ton of memory, but I digress.

From a tech support perspective you are right, they really don't need to understand the nuts and bolts of it. The best approach would be to give them an outline of the stack, predicated with a "You don't really need to know this, but....", give them a brief background then move onto to what is really important for them.

Now if you're talking to a bunch of computer scientists, thats another story. You might not need to talk them through every layer, but you better have plenty of documentation and references to give them.

From my own personal perspective I would want to know, but thats me and my background as a software engineer now turned business owner. My background in writing systems software tend to make me more interested in the lower levels than upper level stuff. Its one of the reasons why I have always ended up writing utilities or drivers rather than higher level applications. The only reason why I plead ignorance on the subject is because I have no need of it now. With the field so diversified at this point its nearly impossible to be expert in everything, thats one thing I have learned along the way.

 

[VSE]

and if you had 2K of ram in your machine, people thought you had a ton of memory, but I digress.

Hehehe I remember those days.....

Thanks for the feedback, I'm new enough there to be just another grunt on the phones despite the fact I used to build call centres 10x bigger than the one I'm now. Hey ho, globalisation bites me on the arse, cant have it both ways I guess.

Its just an odd feeling to be at this level and watching what is going on, especially watching what is being fed to these guys. Its like being 18 years old again, but without the enthusiasm.

 

[alricflaim]

The way I remember it

is

ALL
People
Say
They
Never
Download
Porn

I'm a student taking networking in school right now, so I have a love/hate relationship with the OSI model. On one hand I love networking...on the other hand? my xmas break just started, so I don't want to think about it. Especially when the class I'm in right now (or rather will be in again when break is over) is TCP/IP

 

[Weird Harold]

As you guys are at least computer users where you can log into here without getting a BSOD I'd just like to ask that if I were to mention the ISO 7 layer model would you have any idea what I am on about?

No, I would not have a clue what you were talking about.

I do have a small clue after reading the thread, but all of the explanations are in "Jargon" so the clue is a very small one.

I have no clue what "bluetooth" is either.

I have, however, dealt with writing explanations of technical concepts for non-technical people.

As a first step in explaning things, I'd start with spelling out ISO and explaining that ISO seven is an agreement (or group of agreements) on the technical details of transferring information from one application to another.

Then I'd explain the process in simple terms -- webber1998's explanation is close to what I mean but still uses some "Jargon" like "packets" and "data." (Data is Jargon in this cae, because it isn't used strictly according to the dictionary definition.)

Your target audience will determine how much"jargon" you can get away with, but for most of the people here at Lit, the level of Jargon should be fairly low.

 

[Bobmi357]

Hehehe I remember those days.....

One of these days I'll make up a thread where we old hands can walk down memory lane. Anyone remember Altair? Imsai? Southwest Tech? My first mass storage device was an old grundig 8 inch reel to reel tape recorder.

 

[MagicFingers]

No, but...

One of these days I'll make up a thread where we old hands can walk down memory lane. Anyone remember Altair? Imsai? Southwest Tech? My first mass storage device was an old grundig 8 inch reel to reel tape recorder.

Heard of the first 2, but don't remember much about them.
However, I have loaded OS's from Mag tape, Punch Cards, and Paper Tape on mini computer systems. EVEN paper tape through a teletype (Before we had CRT's for input devices!) AND worked on 4K wire-wrapped core. But I'm still learning this IT stuff.

VDE, Why get hung up on the 7 layer model? If your need is to present Bluetooth, then explain why and where it fits in the model. Do one really wants to hear all that layer 3 connection oriented TCP vs. Connectionless IP and UDP crap. Who cares, unless it relates to what you need to protray about Bluetooth.
I'd like to know more about Bluetooth, so forward me your presentation.
Good luck.

 

[Bobmi357]

Re: No, but...

Heard of the first 2, but don't remember much about them.
However, I have loaded OS's from Mag tape, Punch Cards, and Paper Tape on mini computer systems. EVEN paper tape through a teletype (Before we had CRT's for input devices!) AND worked on 4K wire-wrapped core. But I'm still learning this IT stuff.

LOL! I think we're all still learning. I've been in the field since the mid 70's, first as a hobbiest, then professionally. I've never stopped learning. The field has advanced so much since 1975 when I built my first computer, but I remember the technology we used fondly. I remember punch tapes, good ol'BAUDOT, 45bits per second, or if you were really lucky and had a high speed reader, 110-300bps.

The altair was based on the first commerical 8080's, so was Imsai. Both had binary switch front panels and displays and came as kits. Altair was the first company to propose a standardized bus for interchangeable hardware. Call the S100 the bus had 16 bit addressing and an 8 bit datapath. Max speed was less than 1mhz.

The altair came with 512 bytes of static ram on the main motherboard. Additional 1K memory boards were available as kits for over a grand a pop. Theoretically you could put 8 cards into an s100 bus, so you could get up to 8K of memory.

I had both of them, I liked the Imsai better tho, it had a beefier power supply and HUGE LEDs, you could have read that front panel from 50 feet away.

 

[frodo2003]

As I understand it

Bluetooth is a propriatary protocol developed by IBM for wireless devices (Blackberries, etc). In theory it's encrypted at 128 bits, but I personally haven't delved into breaking it. It's intended use is primarly on cell networks. It is also my understanding that is has no relation to the 7 Layer Model (otherwise known as TCP/IP).

 

[VSE]

Bluetooth is a propriatary protocol developed by IBM for wireless devices (Blackberries, etc). In theory it's encrypted at 128 bits, but I personally haven't delved into breaking it. It's intended use is primarly on cell networks. It is also my understanding that is has no relation to the 7 Layer Model (otherwise known as TCP/IP).

Last time I looked bluetooth was being developed and managed by a consortium including IBM, the trademark I believe is held by Sony Ericsson.

The 7 layer model is not specific to TCP/IP it is used to describe the basic principles between any communication between two or more electronic devices. "The ISO/OSI model describes computer communication services and protocols, without making assumptions concerning: Programming language, Operating system, application or user interfaces"

You should be able to describe equally well TCP/IP, DPNSS, IPX, Bluetooth or any other means of having two or more devices communicate together using the 7 layer model, hence my desire to attempt to use it to a team of psuedo technical support people, it is something that personally I feel they should at least of heard of if not be able to explain at least at a basic level what it is.

[edit] I must admit I am impressed at how long this thread has survived considering its a really nerdy subject and I was drunk as a skunk when I started it

 

[frodo2003]

You could be right

I've not done much research on Bluetooth, at least I had the IBM bit sorta right

How much time do you have to work on this? I can get some pretty hardcore info in the next few days from several places if you wish...and it help me with my job as well. I'll be happy to share what I can find.