Is The Big One This Close?

[Tungwagger]

I'm not sure how the abortion issue got dragged in here. But I'll answer it.

Personally I'm opposed to abortion. I love kids and life period. Would I enforce that on a woman who decides not to carry the fetus full term? No. Not until the self-rightous, placard carrying assholes protesting it decide to adodpt the lives saved. Put your money where your mouth is. IMHO.

Bush hasn't welcomed any critisism....his staff cowers at his temper tantrums over leaks or bad news. You have a very distorted perspective of reality. The man is an idiot and carpetbagger of the biggest degree. He's only now being realed in, in a fashion, by the Republican majority. There are elections coming up for the House and Senate.

You're right in one degree. I have no faith in the current administration.

Nice Deflection...

The abortion issue was brought up over your concern with Constitutional procedures. Because most Constitutional scholars agree that Roe v Wade was a poorly written opinion lacking actual constitutional grounds. Should you be in favor of it being declared as constitutional because the Supreme court at one time said so, then should the present court decide the constitutionality of the NSA wiretaps as legal, I would assume you would support it?

I'll admit, I was setting a trap.

As for Bush clearly stating on the evening news that he would welcome an investigation into the international wiretaps. he clearly stated so, as long as no national secrets weren't revealed. How is that a distorted view of reality?

I understand that Bush worries YOU, and the fact that you get more perterbed when someone logically debates you shows your colors.

Ya know, you conspiracy theorists really lose me when you claim on one hand the leadership is a bunch of idiotic buffoons, yet on the other capable of ingeniously creating a plan to totally hide in the open while secretly plotting to overtake the world...and only you are smart enough to see it..

Sorry dude, ya can't have it both ways.

You still haven't showed me a single example of a U.S. citizen who's civil rights were denied as a result of "illegal wiretaps".

But I'm sure HE is spying on all of us....

 

[Tungwagger]

This talk of Oppenheimer releasing the genie....or for that matter Einstein with his MC= theory is blowing fucking smoke and you know it.

".

now who's being obtuse?

let's do a little history lesson shall we?

Yes, Oppenheimer was given the ok, and funding to create his little monster.

Since then, the technology has been passed on to Allies, who turned into enemies over time, who sold it to rogue nations who have threatened to use the technology.

Thus the "proverbial genie" already being out of the box. Iran is threatening to build them...we are flexing our muscles. included in the flex-ability is the option to use nukes...

News flash Capt. Comrade, Nuke planning is used in every scenario that could involve possible hostilities.

To say otherwise is FUCKING BLOWING SMOKE, and YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!!!

Unless you are capable of traveling back in time and killing Oppenheimer, then perhaps it's you who has his head elsewhere...

 

[69forever]

Nice Deflection...

The abortion issue was brought up over your concern with Constitutional procedures. Because most Constitutional scholars agree that Roe v Wade was a poorly written opinion lacking actual constitutional grounds. Should you be in favor of it being declared as constitutional because the Supreme court at one time said so, then should the present court decide the constitutionality of the NSA wiretaps as legal, I would assume you would support it?

I'll admit, I was setting a trap.

As for Bush clearly stating on the evening news that he would welcome an investigation into the international wiretaps. he clearly stated so, as long as no national secrets weren't revealed. How is that a distorted view of reality?

I understand that Bush worries YOU, and the fact that you get more perterbed when someone logically debates you shows your colors.

Ya know, you conspiracy theorists really lose me when you claim on one hand the leadership is a bunch of idiotic buffoons, yet on the other capable of ingeniously creating a plan to totally hide in the open while secretly plotting to overtake the world...and only you are smart enough to see it..

Sorry dude, ya can't have it both ways.

You still haven't showed me a single example of a U.S. citizen who's civil rights were denied as a result of "illegal wiretaps".

But I'm sure HE is spying on all of us....

Well, lets refresh sinse these posts and my "conspiracy" theory.

France has openly declared terrorism against them would receive nukes if needed.

Isreal has said Iran will in no terms get nukes.

Russia is now on board and they sold them the technology.

Iran is hiding their assets and redeploying their stocks.

Ohhhh, and the US govt. wants access to Googles data-base.

Do you really think with how Bush has run ramshod over constitutional issues that it is only "international terrorists" being bugged. Reporters, Congressmen and Senators who oppose him aren't? Anti-war activists? If you think not, you my friend are nieve. One act of terrorism could bring martial law. Do you really think if Iran plays the oil card and gas prices are $5 a gallon, the economy tanks, we won't pull the trigger?

 

[Tungwagger]

Do you really think with how Bush has run ramshod over constitutional issues that it is only "international terrorists" being bugged. Reporters, Congressmen and Senators who oppose him aren't? Anti-war activists? If you think not, you my friend are nieve. One act of terrorism could bring martial law. Do you really think if Iran plays the oil card and gas prices are $5 a gallon, the economy tanks, we won't pull the trigger?

Yes, No, No, It's naive. not nieve, Bullshit..and NO....

lotsa "ifs" there bucko....

I don't fear a piss test cuz I'm clean....only when I was smokin the chronic did I oppose the piss test.... chew on that...

 

[69forever]

Yes, No, No, It's naive. not nieve, Bullshit..and NO....

lotsa "ifs" there bucko....

I don't fear a piss test cuz I'm clean....only when I was smokin the chronic did I oppose the piss test.... chew on that...

Well, that might be your opinion and you're welcome to it. I typo'd or spelled wrong on a word, woopie. Oops, whoopie.

If you don't beleive that constitutional power is in jeaprody, that martial law could be invoked bypassing Congress.....you're either subterfuging or just beligerantly right of center. Fact is it's been in place for a long time. Nixon had some of the old WWII POW camps opened and staffed during the anti-war days of 'Nam. I know, I saw the intelligence. Official DOD docs. Plus Vets well placed with contacts. It's a bitch when you take an oath to defend against all enemies ain't it?

Those aren't if's of the events unfolding in front of our eyes. They're facts. Like them or not.

FYI....I don't fear a piss test either. Haven't smoked in....awhile.

 

[Tungwagger]

Well, that might be your opinion and you're welcome to it. I typo'd or spelled wrong on a word, woopie. Oops, whoopie.

If you don't beleive that constitutional power is in jeaprody, that martial law could be invoked bypassing Congress.....you're either subterfuging or just beligerantly right of center. Fact is it's been in place for a long time. Nixon had some of the old WWII POW camps opened and staffed during the anti-war days of 'Nam. I know, I saw the intelligence. Official DOD docs. Plus Vets well placed with contacts. It's a bitch when you take an oath to defend against all enemies ain't it?

Those aren't if's of the events unfolding in front of our eyes. They're facts. Like them or not.

FYI....I don't fear a piss test either. Haven't smoked in....awhile.

Yawn.....



Conjecture and hyperbole.



Provide the "facts" to back up your claims..



Have you picked up yet on the references (twice) to urinalysis testing? yes, I'm being obtuse again.

 

[69forever]

Yawn.....

Conjecture and hyperbole.

Provide the "facts" to back up your claims..

Have you picked up yet on the references (twice) to urinalysis testing? yes, I'm being obtuse again.

*sighs* I picked up on it the first time. Just didn't feel it worthy of response until you kept up with it. I'd piss test if required to at any time. Nothing non-prescribed in my blood to worry about. Is it invasive and prejudiciary, yes. I've had numerous supervisors come in stinking of booze, still drunk, and nothing is said. We had a proposal from the company several years ago for random piss tests of union employees. We said sure....as long as it includes management as well. End of subject.

Cindy Sheenan being hauled out of the Capitol Rotunda before the State of the Union address isn't conjecture and hyperbole. It's a violition of free speech and an example of how far things have gone. To this administration, if you don't agree you are as well the enemy. That's not the America I want to pass to my children and grandchildren.

I'll just add this. Not my opinion....researchable.
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Sun-Sentinel (South Florida) February 9, 2006

IRAQ WAR: Why 2,245 is just the tip of the iceberg

By Erik Leaver

Cindy Sheehan and Beverly Young's arrests at the State of
the Union for wearing opposing "protest" T-shirts is the
latest illustration of how the Iraq War is the nation's
most provocative issue. The attack on free speech for
both sides was in fact outrageous. But lost in the
T-shirt battle is what really matters: President George
W. Bush's failure to tell the nation about the true costs
of the war.

Any honest national discussion about the war must begin
with the death of Sheehan's son Casey and the other 2,244
soldiers who have died because of this conflict.

The number of soldiers killed boldly written on Sheehan's
shirt was a shocking, in-your-face accounting of the
State of the Union over the last three years. As horrific
as they are, those numbers are just the tip of the
iceberg of the human costs of this war. Along those
soldiers are 16,584 soldiers wounded in combat, and
upwards of 100,000 needing mental health services, just
to start with.

Bush didn't mention the human cost of war because in part
gross mismanagement by the administration has inflated
it. For example, both Bush and members of Congress have
pledged to fix problems with body and vehicle armor year
after year. But despite promises to fix the situation,
the military recently reported that 80 percent of Marines
killed by torso wounds could have lived if they had
better body armor.

That's hard to swallow, especially when one of the makers
of body armor, CEO David H. Brooks of DHB Industries,
received $87,500 in compensation for "foregone vacation,"
almost three times what an Army private makes in an
entire year of combat. With complete disregard for
rampant war profiteering, Brooks earned $70 million in
2004.

Those veterans who return from Iraq are finding
Washington's promises to care for them are violated with
impunity. Last year, the Veterans Affairs Department
suspended enrollment of 263,257 vets seeking health care.
The VA underestimated the number of veterans needing care
upon return from Iraq and Afghanistan by 300 percent, so
qualified veterans were simply cut from the rolls. Maybe
they thought no one would notice.

In addition to the war's human costs, Bush overlooked the
financial costs. Three days after the State of the Union
address, budget officials announced another $70 billion
will be requested. Such a large initiative should have
been highlighted for all of the nation. With these funds,
the U.S. will spend more than $320 billion in the Iraq
War.

As astonishing as this number is, it does not include
many of the indirect and long-term costs. Adding in
estimates for future Veterans Administration and ongoing
health care costs along with the interest on the debt,
Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard budget expert
Linda Bilmes recently estimated the long-term cost of the
war at $1.3 trillion.

Instead of calling for a plan to pay for the shared
sacrifice needed to cover the war's costs, Bush urged
Congress to make his tax cuts permanent. Surely the
government could use these funds to offset the looming
Social Security crisis he highlighted. Or the sorely
needed reconstruction of those cities destroyed by
Hurricane Katrina could be accelerated.

The irony of the war's outrageous financial costs is that
they hobble the very social and economic programs that
keep this country strong. While Iraq staggers under the
occupation-spurred violence, the war is exacting a huge
toll at home.

The costs of war might be worthwhile if there was indeed
a "plan for victory." But squeezing the same lemon again
and again isn't producing very good lemonade. The lack of
leadership and vision coupled with the tremendous loss of
life and staggering economic costs make the Iraq War one
of the nation's greatest tragedies.

Ignoring the real human and economic costs of the war, it
was easy for Bush to use his State of the Union speech to
vow to stay the course. But while Cindy Sheehan and her
tell-the-truth shirt from the Capitol were quickly
removed from public view, the reality of the war is not
so easy to hide.

Peace

 

[69forever]

Nothing to say now?

There's an old saying that history not learned from is doomed to be repeated, with all it's consequences. I truly thought we learned our lesson of that in 'Nam.

Foolish to beleive that greed wouldn't win over logic and human compassion.
That's my fault of being idealistic and thinking we may be smarter than the monkeys.
**********************************************************

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States on Thursday came under mounting international pressure to close its Guantanamo prison, with U.N. investigators saying detainees there faced treatment amounting to torture.

In a 40-page report, which had already been largely leaked, five United Nations special envoys said the United States was violating a host of human rights, including a ban on torture, arbitrary detention and the right to a fair trial.

The findings could fuel anger among Arabs already incensed by images of abuse of Iraqi inmates at Baghdad's U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison newly broadcast by Australian television.

"The United States government should close the Guantanamo Bay detention facilities without further delay," the human rights rapporteurs declared.

Until that happened, the U.S. government should "refrain from any practice amounting to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment," they added.

U.N. Human Rights Commissioner Louise Arbour, who has frequently urged the United States to try the detainees or free them, told the BBC in London that the jail should be shut.

Many of the 500 inmates of the prison at the U.S. naval base in Cuba have been held for four years without trial. The prisoners were mainly detained in Afghanistan.

Adding its voice to the clamor, the European parliament voted overwhelmingly on Thursday for a resolution urging the prison be closed and inmates given a fair trail.

The White House, calling the Guantanamo detainees "dangerous terrorists," dismissed the report as a reworking of past allegations and said that inmates were humanely treated.

"FALSE ALLEGATIONS"

It "appears to be a rehash of some of the allegations that have been made by lawyers for some of the detainees and we know that al Qaeda detainees are trained in trying to disseminate false allegations," said spokesman Scott McClellan.

He also indicated that the calls to close the jail would fall on deaf ears.

"These are dangerous terrorists that we're talking about that are there and I think we've talked about that issue before and nothing's changed in terms of our views," McClellan added.

But Amnesty International backed the call for shutting down Guantanamo, which it said represented "just the tip of the iceberg" of U.S.-run detention facilities worldwide.

"The U.S. can no longer make the case, morally or legally, for keeping it open," the London-based group said.

Harsh treatment, such as placing detainees in solitary confinement, stripping them naked, subjecting them to severe temperatures, and threatening them with dogs could amount to torture, which is banned in all circumstances, the report said.

"The excessive violence used in many cases during transportation ... and forced-feeding of detainees on hunger strike must be assessed as amounting to torture," it added.

The five investigators said they were particularly concerned by attempts by the U.S. administration to "redefine" the nature of torture to allow certain interrogation techniques.

Washington, which denies any international laws are being broken, accused the U.N. investigators of acting like prosecution lawyers with the report, selecting only those elements that backed their case.

Washington also denies that the force-feeding of inmates on hunger strike, which was undertaken to save their lives, amounted to cruel treatment.

The five U.N. investigators, who include Manfred Nowak, special rapporteur on torture, and Leila Zerrougui, chairwoman of the U.N. Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, said the findings were based on interviews with past detainees, lawyers and replies to questions put to the U.S. government.

The five turned down a U.S. offer to visit the detention center late last year because Washington would not allow them to interview individual detainees.
***********************************************************

This kind of in your face to the rest of the international community isolates us, makes a mockery of justice and rule of law and breeds new terrorists. All in all, it makes us less safe. The Emperor doesn't have the wits to realize he's naked, and the court is to afraid to tell him.

Hell of a pickle we're in.