Internal dialog in a story?

[The_Caroline]

I'm working on the third part of my ongoing story and I wanted to do little crowdsourcing. How much to people like reading about what someone is thinking (my own internal thoughts about what is happening) vs what is happening around me, setting the scene, and the physical aspects of it all?

 

[SabrinaGLangton]

Love internal dialogs, I use it in all my stories. I think it is the best thing about books as compared to movies. It is a like a voice over in your mind and it always works. Good luck.

 

[Euphony]

I'm working on the third part of my ongoing story and I wanted to do little crowdsourcing. How much to people like reading about what someone is thinking (my own internal thoughts about what is happening) vs what is happening around me, setting the scene, and the physical aspects of it all?

It's a wonderful device when not overused. Trouble is, we all have our own limits and appetites as to how much is too much.

I would be cognizant of how well your story otherwise flows. If we are moving apace through action, emotion, thoughts (response to feeling said emotions) and decision (come to from thoughts) then adding more texture via internal dialog can be incredible.

It's when we get stuck in the mud of emotions it risks dragging on. Emotional "voyeurism" is much like dirty talk. When it's just the right punctuation on what's occurring, it's exceptional. But you can't keep piling it on or at some point we tire and/or your character looks a bit self-important with their emotions. (think about friends who won't skip a single emotional note in retelling a simple story of poor customer service, etc.)

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I do it all the time! One has to be careful not to overdo it, of course.

 

[ofbuttons]

I prefer to mix it in with narrative rather than have distinct moments of internal dialogue (although I will still sometimes do that anyway). The fancy term for that being 'free indirect discourse', where the writing itself (descriptions, actions, so on) is all kind of imbued with the perspective of the character we are following in that moment.

The difference being:

Jodie noticed Richard entering the room. He's such a prick, she thought to herself, even as she felt her heart flutter.

But a FID version would be more like:

Jodie noticed Richard entering the room - a real prick, but too handsome and charming for his own good.

The danger here is that you have to be consistent throughout and really make sure that the voice belongs to Jodie and doesn't feel like the author looming in and describing things over the top. But for me, I prefer the way it flows. One isn't better than the other, I don't think, but it's a tool in the arsenal.

 

[ElectricBlue]

It's a narrative technique like any other, and helps define character. My current heroine is quite chatty to herself, and I think that helps define who she is.

ofbutton's post above ^^^^ makes some very good points, especially to make clear within the story's context what's going on, who's thought it is.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm with ofbuttons on this one. Revealing the internal thinking of your POV character is a way to make the narrative richer and more interesting. But most of the time I think it's better if it's NOT done in the form of dialogue. There's no need to, and you make the narrative flow more easily. You dispense with unnecessary formatting and tags. Free indirect style is the style I try to use when I write in third person POV. When writing in first person POV, there's no need for internal dialogue, because it's understood that everything narrated IS a revelation of the POV of the character.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I do it both ways. No I am not talking about sex
When I tend to have larger blocks of narration, I usually offer some change of dynamics with internal dialogue. Also when there is plenty of dialogue, I usually show the inner thoughts with narration. I think it best if both ways are used, as a way to change the dynamics and pacing. Ultimately, it depends on the story and its structure

 

[yukonnights]

I'd find it both difficult and unsatisfying to write anything without a peek into the thoughts/feelings/emotions of the characters — how can a sexual scene be complete w/o knowing what he/she is feeling and thinking? It's been my experience that a good portion of those reading my stuff often comment on how they enjoyed that extra depth.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I prefer to mix it in with narrative rather than have distinct moments of internal dialogue (although I will still sometimes do that anyway). The fancy term for that being 'free indirect discourse', where the writing itself (descriptions, actions, so on) is all kind of imbued with the perspective of the character we are following in that moment.

The difference being:



But a FID version would be more like:



The danger here is that you have to be consistent throughout and really make sure that the voice belongs to Jodie and doesn't feel like the author looming in and describing things over the top. But for me, I prefer the way it flows. One isn't better than the other, I don't think, but it's a tool in the arsenal.

I have seen internal dialog handled differently by writers, and I'm sure KeithD or someone can state the Chicago or Oxford style guidelines for us.

What differences do my fellow writers see with internal dialogue based upon the perspective being used to tell the story? For example, when I include internal dialogue in a 3rd person perspective story, I typically treat it like normal dialogue, denoting it as the person's thoughts. In 1st person perspective, I will typically use italics to denote internal dialogue.

2nd person perspective, which i avoid writing, is pretty much all internal dialogue, so why bother discussing?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

What differences do my fellow writers see with internal dialogue based upon the perspective being used to tell the story? For example, when I include internal dialogue in a 3rd person perspective story, I typically treat it like normal dialogue, denoting it as the person's thoughts. In 1st person perspective, I will typically use italics to denote internal dialogue.

If it's a first person narrative, everything other than actual dialogue is internal thoughts, so no need to put some of it in italics just because it's a sentence that could have been said out loud.

I find authors who do that come across as teenagers writing their first excited fanfic. Ditto putting part of the narrative in a third-person tale into speech marks. Reported speech looks much better. These may be simply my biases, but I reckon there's a style guide out there that would back me up.

 

[PennameWombat]

I have seen internal dialog handled differently by writers, and I'm sure KeithD or someone can state the Chicago or Oxford style guidelines for us.

What differences do my fellow writers see with internal dialogue based upon the perspective being used to tell the story? For example, when I include internal dialogue in a 3rd person perspective story, I typically treat it like normal dialogue, denoting it as the person's thoughts. In 1st person perspective, I will typically use italics to denote internal dialogue.

2nd person perspective, which i avoid writing, is pretty much all internal dialogue, so why bother discussing?

CMOS isn’t harshly prescriptive on this. It does discuss using a tag like

she thought

But use of quotation marks or skipping them is left up to the author/editor (or house style) to choose and follow, so long as it’s consistent and you have a tag.

CMOS is silent about italics for internal dialogue, in discussions I’ve seen many ‘pro’ editors don’t like them, but depending on either a house style or target audience might swallow it and not blue pencil them all. I personally hate them used for internal dialogue and unless the story is REALLY good, it’ll cause me to check out as soon as I see it (or not start reading). I tend to use a ‘thought’ (or similar) tag and just go with the text without quotation marks.

MLA is open to either quotation marks or italics for internal dialogue when writing fiction.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

If it's a first person narrative, everything other than actual dialogue is internal thoughts, so no need to put some of it in italics just because it's a sentence that could have been said out loud.

I find authors who do that come across as teenagers writing their first excited fanfic. Ditto putting part of the narrative in a third-person tale into speech marks. Reported speech looks much better. These may be simply my biases, but I reckon there's a style guide out there that would back me up.

Did you consider how the style used to denote internal thought might be handled in text-to-speech conversions or readers for the blind? Many speak italicized words differently, either emphasizing them differently, altering the pitch, altering the speed, or some combination of the three. I may be wrong but I don't think most style guides address text-to-speech.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I italicize thoughts and don't use quotation marks. Because I italicize people speaking other languages, leaving the quotation marks off differentiates. I've yet to receive any negative or angry feedback from my more gobby readers, so my assumption is that this is effective.

 

[jsmiam]

I'm working on the third part of my ongoing story and I wanted to do little crowdsourcing. How much to people like reading about what someone is thinking (my own internal thoughts about what is happening) vs what is happening around me, setting the scene, and the physical aspects of it all?

Regarding the bolder text: do you mean what you as the author of the story is thinking, or what the main character within your story is thinking?

The answer may differ.

What the author is thinking traditionally is just an author’s note at the top or bottom of the story. You might be breaking new ground to intersperse author’s notes throughout.

But go for it, whatever you meant. Your paycheck from Literotica will not be affected! ;-)

@Kumquatqueen: “Star Wars!” ;-)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Did you consider how the style used to denote internal thought might be handled in text-to-speech conversions or readers for the blind? Many speak italicized words differently, either emphasizing them differently, altering the pitch, altering the speed, or some combination of the three. I may be wrong but I don't think most style guides address text-to-speech.

That's another good reason to avoid long stretches of italics, for sure - a colleague of mine is quite vocal on the subject. JAWS isn't supported by lots of software which ought to know better. But I've only worked on accessibility for formal work-related texts; I don't know if colleague or other users of text-to-speech have preferences for fiction, though years ago they preferred just getting the words.

@jsmiam I'm not going to ask...

 

[The_Caroline]

I italicize thoughts and don't use quotation marks. Because I italicize people spoken other languages, leaving the quotation marks off differentiates. I've yet to receive any negative or angry feedback from my more gobby readers, so my assumption is that this is effective.

I like this idea of using italics! I'm going to use this! Thank you!

 

[SimonDoom]

It would be useful if people would post some examples of how they do this, because in some cases I'm having difficulty picturing it.

 

[jsmiam]

...

@jsmiam I'm not going to ask...

Kumquat’s law.

 

[thomas1965]

There's a book about Internal Dialogue by Marcy Kennedy on Am'zon.
I find it worth reading

 

[PennameWombat]

I made my personal preferences clear above but a note around any formatting.

Lit claims that significant numbers of readers use mobile devices. So a note about those readers that’s come up before.

• If readers use the Literotica Mobile App, it ignores all formatting. It will properly render the text, e.g., paragraph breaks and the like, but bolds, italics, etc., all gone.
• If readers use a browser on a mobile device, they’ll see the formatting.

There was a thread here many months back where a new writer had used the ‘italics for thoughts’ method but when they read their posted story, all gone. Their posting showed them rather distraught at the effort they thought had been wasted. (They also indicated they’d submitted it as a .doc file and that was immediately blamed as the fault by various responses to the original posting…)

But, they were using the Mobile App to read it. It was just fine viewed through a browser.

Lit has claimed huge numbers of downloads for the Mobile App, but no stats on how widely it’s actually used. So, whether you take it into consideration or not is up to you.

 

[KeithD]

I made my personal preferences clear above but a note around any formatting.

Lit claims that significant numbers of readers use mobile devices. So a note about those readers that’s come up before.

• If readers use the Literotica Mobile App, it ignores all formatting. It will properly render the text, e.g., paragraph breaks and the like, but bolds, italics, etc., all gone.
• If readers use a browser on a mobile device, they’ll see the formatting.

There was a thread here many months back where a new writer had used the ‘italics for thoughts’ method but when they read their posted story, all gone. Their posting showed them rather distraught at the effort they thought had been wasted. (They also indicated they’d submitted it as a .doc file and that was immediately blamed as the fault by various responses to the original posting…)

But, they were using the Mobile App to read it. It was just fine viewed through a browser.

Lit has claimed huge numbers of downloads for the Mobile App, but no stats on how widely it’s actually used. So, whether you take it into consideration or not is up to you.

This would be the point to note, in case it matters--in case anyone is thinking of writing beyond Literotica--that U.S. style does not accept italics for thoughts. The thoughts in double quotes or just identified as thoughts are what is preferred by U.S. publishing (Chicago Manual of Style 16, 13.41).

I don't think this ruling was made for the reasoning PNW gives, but a reason to not use italics at Literotica for thoughts is raised here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It would be useful if people would post some examples of how they do this, because in some cases I'm having difficulty picturing it.

A few from my stories, edited for brevity.

*****

She rolled over to face me, and I could see the anxiety in her face. “I loved being your once-a-fortnight but I don’t think I can be your everyday. We made a finite commitment and I want to keep it finite.”

But this is less than what we agreed on, I wanted to say. It was supposed to be until you finished your doctorate, but we’ve been on hiatus since August. Wanted to say, but didn’t.

After a long silence she added, “I’m sorry.”

“Don’t be,” I said reflexively.

*****

"I wish somebody would tell me stories at bedtime."

"I would," Rafi said.

"Oh, I was just whining, I didn't mean—" I remembered something Lucy had once said: Penny, you really need to learn how to say yes. "Wait, really?"

"If you do your exercises and go to bed by eleven, I promise you a story tomorrow night."''

*****

"They have wheelchairs," Rafi said. "I could push you, if you like."

I caught myself before I could say no wheelchair; I still hated acknowledging my injury, but Rafi had a point. "Yeah, I could give that a try? If you don't mind?"

*****

"If you're not interested in me, please say so." Please don't.

*****

As those examples might suggest, I'm fond of interleaving actual spoken dialogue with things the protagonist thinks but doesn't say. If I were to punctuate both the same way, with quotes, I suspect that would be jarring for the reader, so I prefer italics as a way of distinguishing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As those examples might suggest, I'm fond of interleaving actual spoken dialogue with things the protagonist thinks but doesn't say. If I were to punctuate both the same way, with quotes, I suspect that would be jarring for the reader, so I prefer italics as a way of distinguishing.

Those work smoothly and the shorter phrases in italics don't intrude - the longer sentences, I'm not so sure. I'd tend towards context, with the thought being thought making it clear what's going on (mainly because I've had several long passages in italics go spectacularly wrong, because I cocked up the code).

 

[SimonDoom]

She rolled over to face me, and I could see the anxiety in her face. “I loved being your once-a-fortnight but I don’t think I can be your everyday. We made a finite commitment and I want to keep it finite.”

But this is less than what we agreed on, I wanted to say. It was supposed to be until you finished your doctorate, but we’ve been on hiatus since August. Wanted to say, but didn’t.

After a long silence she added, “I’m sorry.”

“Don’t be,” I said reflexively.

*****

These are useful examples. I agree with you about the use of italics versus quotation marks, because it would be confusing to use quotation marks for actual dialogue AND internal unspoken dialogue in close proximity.

Not that there's a right way to do it, but here's how I would rewrite the relevant second line of your first excerpt:


I wanted to say this was less than we agreed on. It was supposed to be until she had finished her doctorate, but we'd been on hiatus since August. I wanted to say it but didn't.

x x x x x

I suspect reactions to this sort of thing are highly subjective and personal, and without objective resolution. I prefer to do it this way because I think it simplifies things for me and for the reader. I am using fewer font/formatting changes. "Internal dialogue" simply gets folded into the first person POV character's narration of what's going on -- it's just that the narrative now includes a description of the first person POV narrator's thoughts as well. No italics, quote marks, or tags are needed. I don't think there's any loss of clarity or meaning, or of feeling directly privy to the narrator's thoughts.

I can see how some authors might like to "mix it up" more and favor including internal dialogue as an additional element to do that. I tend to gravitate toward keeping formatting as simple as possible.