Pacing and dialog

[NotWise]

I was listening to the podcast Writers on Writing and heard the author (whose name I don't recall) say that he used bare dialog to slow down the pace of a story. Think about Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants. From his point of view omitting the tags makes readers slow down to understand who is speaking, and that paces the story.

I've used tagless dialog to get exactly the opposite effect. To me, it can give the dialog an almost breathless pace. The dialog tags, especially more complex tags, slow the pace.

What say you? In your experience reading and writing, does tagless dialog slow the pace of the story, or speed it up?

FWIW, I had a reader or two complain that they were confused by my tagless dialog, so I use it more judiciously.

 

[Voyeurkenneth]

Interesting. "Omitting the tags to make sure reader slows down to understand" can also mean frustrating/confusing the reader, which is what I'd never aim to do.

I read a novel that used the tag "he said" "she said" after EVERY line. Funny enough, I hadn't noticed it until after I started writing my own stuff and returned to that novel to re-examine its style.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I use tagless dialog when it's more of an exclamation. When there's no question on who's speaking.

Donna approached her husband tentatively. "So babe, I umm ... had lunch with my ex today."

"You did what!"

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm with Rob_Royale on this one.
I tend to start a conversation with tags and then move away from it as long as it's obvious who is speaking, or unless I need a descriptor.

She hesitated before responding, "it was just lunch at Casa Bonita, he had some questions about the business."

 

[SimonDoom]

I think the thing that slows the pace is interspersing the dialogue with narrative, or with descriptions of what the characters are thinking. Of course, Hemingway doesn't delve deeply into what characters are thinking often. He likes to imply it through what they say and do.

I checked out that Hemingway story, and there are a few places where he goes tagless for several lines in a row, but he's skillful enough about doing it that there's never any doubt about who is speaking. Hemingway is a pretty good model of the spare, straightforward way of handling dialogue, like Elmore Leonard recommends. He uses tags fairly often to make things clear, but he dispenses with them when they're not necessary. He uses "said" and "asked" most of the time, instead of substitutes.

Just speaking for myself, I find it extremely annoying when authors dispense with tags so much that I have trouble keeping track of who is speaking. I think the key with dialogue is that it should be handled clearly and simply so I can pay attention to the words of the dialogue rather than what else is going on.

 

[ElectricBlue]

It would never occur to me to use (or not use) speech tags as a way to pace the flow of the narrative. For me they're navigation devices, used to identify who is speaking - he said, she replied.

If the to and fro of dialogue makes it obvious who's speaking, I'll reduce them - there are plenty of ways to identify who's speaking, action sentences and so on, no need for tags. I avoid "actionising" the tags too, that's a sign of trying to be too clever, I reckon.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think the thing that slows the pace is interspersing the dialogue with narrative, or with descriptions of what the characters are thinking. Of course, Hemingway doesn't delve deeply into what characters are thinking often. He likes to imply it through what they say and do.

I checked out that Hemingway story, and there are a few places where he goes tagless for several lines in a row, but he's skillful enough about doing it that there's never any doubt about who is speaking. Hemingway is a pretty good model of the spare, straightforward way of handling dialogue, like Elmore Leonard recommends. He uses tags fairly often to make things clear, but he dispenses with them when they're not necessary. He uses "said" and "asked" most of the time, instead of substitutes.

Just speaking for myself, I find it extremely annoying when authors dispense with tags so much that I have trouble keeping track of who is speaking. I think the key with dialogue is that it should be handled clearly and simply so I can pay attention to the words of the dialogue rather than what else is going on.

Ditto.

As a reader, I find that tagless dialogue speeds up the pace, always. In my writing, I use tagless dialogue precisely to speed up pace in a quick conversation between two people.

The author quoted in the OP as far as I'm concerned is dead wrong. Unless they mean badly untagged dialogue where it becomes difficult or even impossible to tell who is saying what is not only slow, but annoying as all fuck. There is one writer here in the AH whop has a nasty habit of using tagless dialogue combined with the utterly maddening technique of starting a new paragraph for every line of dialogue, even if the same character is saying two lines in a row! (aaarrrrrrghhhhhh!!!!!) So I suppose the unnamed author in the OP could be deliberately annoying the reader just to slow the pace, iunno. Doesn't sound like a very good technique.

You want the reader to be engaged. You want to give the reader's brain something to do, to put together, but you want to give the reader fun stuff to think about, not abrasive logistical tedium.

 

[SimonDoom]

You want the reader to be engaged. You want to give the reader's brain something to do, to put together, but you want to give the reader fun stuff to think about, not abrasive logistical tedium.

With that goal in mind, which I agree with, I would circle back to the OP's comment and say that VARIETY is a huge part of pacing in an entertaining story. As a reader, you never, ever want to feel like the prose is set to a metronome. As an author, you've got to mix it up. But it usually works better if you do it in a way that seems natural. If an author completely dispenses with tags, I feel like I'm being forced to participate in the author's writing experiment rather than being allowed to sit back and enjoy a story. It feels forced and mannered. It calls attention to itself. I want to get lost in a good story and great words. I don't want to find myself counting how many lines of dialogue have passed without a tag.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I was listening to the podcast Writers on Writing and heard the author (whose name I don't recall) say that he used bare dialog to slow down the pace of a story. Think about Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants. From his point of view omitting the tags makes readers slow down to understand who is speaking, and that paces the story.

I've used tagless dialog to get exactly the opposite effect. To me, it can give the dialog an almost breathless pace. The dialog tags, especially more complex tags, slow the pace.

What say you? In your experience reading and writing, does tagless dialog slow the pace of the story, or speed it up?

FWIW, I had a reader or two complain that they were confused by my tagless dialog, so I use it more judiciously.

Hemmingway's A Clean, Well-Lighted Place was a huge, huge influence for me, and it did the same thing with untagged dialog. I took different lessons from it than this podcast, but that's how it is with great writing. Different interpretations encouraged.

EDIT: What I really learned, although I didn't know it at the time, was postmodernism. Had you asked me before reading ACWLP if I thought a story with dialog needed dialog tags, I'd have said yes of course. How could you not have dialog tags? I had all these preconceived notions about what a story was, and what elements needed to be present.

After reading ACWLP, I started wondering what else I didn't need.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I wonder how many readers of a story on Lit, are actually writers. With an interest in the process and what it means?

I wonder also, how many readers, not interested in the intricasies of writing go ... "Ho hum, this is too hard, and back out leaving a 1 bomb for good measure?
Not all of us are in the same league as the great writers. I'd say unless you are incredibly good at laying out your dialogue, you might lose more readers than sucking them in with your brilliance.
Personally, I make enough mistakes without trying to be clever.
Being average is hard enough.

Cagivagurl

 

[XerXesXu]

Hemmingway's A Clean, Well-Lighted Place was a huge, huge influence for me, and it did the same thing with untagged dialog. I took different lessons from it than this podcast, but that's how it is with great writing. Different interpretations encouraged.

EDIT: What I really learned, although I didn't know it at the time, was postmodernism. Had you asked me before reading ACWLP if I thought a story with dialog needed dialog tags, I'd have said yes of course. How could you not have dialog tags? I had all these preconceived notions about what a story was, and what elements needed to be present.

After reading ACWLP, I started wondering what else I didn't need.

ACWLP uses tags in the conventional manner - where necessary. Tags neither slow the pace down nor speed it up. Tags are not entertaining, introducing them where they're not required adds only 'clunk'. If you need to slow down the pace, add little fillers that add to the story and entertain, even if they're not strictly necessary.

NB: I found very little in ACWLP that added to a story or entertained. It's greatest merit was that it was short.

 

[ElectricBlue]

If an author completely dispenses with tags, I feel like I'm being forced to participate in the author's writing experiment rather than being allowed to sit back and enjoy a story. It feels forced and mannered. It calls attention to itself.

Absolutely agree. Cleverness is fine when it enhances the storytelling, but when it becomes intrusive and pretentious, I'm gone.

The worst case I've seen recently is Amor Towles. His breakthrough novel, A Gentleman in Moscow is superb, witty, beautifully written, clever in a historical/literary sense. His later novel, The Lincoln Highway, is pretentious tripe, it tries so hard to say, look at me, I'm a successful writer now, I can do what I want. Give me my fucking money back, is what you can do. His editor should have said said, "Amor, please use speech marks, they're okay." He dispenses with " " as well as tags. So disappointing.

 

[ronde]

I do omit tags if it's obvious there is only a two way conversation going on, and I try to never use the old , "he/she said" tags. Use of these simple tags once in a while is OK, but when I read these tags used a lot, the writing always seems lazy to me. I would rather read a tag that also conveys some information about the situation of the speakers feelings, like, "Marion wiped the tear from her cheek. Dopes this mean you don't love me?"

When I don't use some sort of tag, I'll intersperse the dialogue every few lines with an action statement to let the reader know who's speaking.

I have no desire to force my way through anything that doesn't have at least a fairly clear "map" that tells me if someone is speaking or if the words are narration, and that "map" needs to be clearly defined as far as using quotation marks. I've seen some "experimental techniques" in my day, like denoting dialogue with a back slash or an asterisk. To me, it seems as if the writer is inventing a solution to a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I do omit tags if it's obvious there is only a two way conversation going on, and I try to never use the old , "he/she said" tags. Use of these simple tags once in a while is OK, but when I read these tags used a lot, the writing always seems lazy to me. I would rather read a tag that also conveys some information about the situation of the speakers feelings, like, "Marion wiped the tear from her cheek. Dopes this mean you don't love me?"

He said, she said become invisible.

"I far prefer to use those speech tags, rather than say something like this," he uttered. Non vocal tags like that are trying too hard, I reckon.

Your example is effective, even if the punctuation is incorrect - I'm assuming that's a typo...

 

[SimonDoom]

I think the Hemingway story ACWLP is a good example, just like Hills, of a story that dispenses with tags effectively when they are not needed to convey information.

ACWLP is set in a cafe where an old man sits at a table and two waiters are talking to each other about him. The very first passage of dialogue is this:

"Last week he tried to commit suicide," one waiter said.
"Why?"
"He was in despair."
"What about?"
"Nothing."
"How do you know it was nothing?"
"He has plenty of money."

This passage starts with an ordinary "said" tag to indicate one of the waiters is speaking.

There are two good reasons why no tags are needed here. One is that it doesn't matter which waiter is speaking. The only thing we know about them is that they're waiters. We don't know their names; we don't know anything more about them. There's no confusion because it doesn't matter which one is saying what.

Plus, it is clear who is speaking because the dialogue sticks to a steady statement-question pattern. There's an asking waiter and an answering waiter. If you are skillful with dialogue, and Hemingway is definitely skillful, you can convey who is speaking through the content of the dialogue itself.

Cagivagurl is right that most readers don't think about these things as they read, but I think subconsciously that most of us care about them. It's like listening to a song. 99% of listeners don't care to analyze the chord pattern, but even if they know nothing about music they know if it sounds good or not. Readers are the same way.

 

[StillStunned]

There are two good reasons why no tags are needed here. One is that it doesn't matter which waiter is speaking. The only thing we know about them is that they're waiters. We don't know their names; we don't know anything more about them. There's no confusion because it doesn't matter which one is saying what.

Not having read the story, I'd say that dialogue tags would create a different scene. The way it's written now, I get the impression of two disembodied voices: the listener isn't looking at them, doesn't see them, is likely not much aware of his surroundings beyond the words spoken. It's almost abstract.

If you add even a single dialogue tag, you place the listener much more firmly in the scene and make him part of it.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I was listening to the podcast Writers on Writing and heard the author (whose name I don't recall) say that he used bare dialog to slow down the pace of a story. Think about Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants. From his point of view omitting the tags makes readers slow down to understand who is speaking, and that paces the story.

I've used tagless dialog to get exactly the opposite effect. To me, it can give the dialog an almost breathless pace. The dialog tags, especially more complex tags, slow the pace.

What say you? In your experience reading and writing, does tagless dialog slow the pace of the story, or speed it up?

FWIW, I had a reader or two complain that they were confused by my tagless dialog, so I use it more judiciously.

I use tagless dialog sparingly to not confuse the reader. When I use it, it is usually in a fast paced back and forth where what is being said enforces who is saying it, and yes, in my eye, this makes the story move faster, because that's what the scene demands.

Here's a short example from the story I'm currently working on.

“How long?” I sat on top of the ladder and glared down at him. “How long before I got too old, and you got rid of me, gave me to one of your friends, or just threw me out on the street?” <To me, the long tag in the first line slows down the pace of that line giving it the gravity it deserves. She's thought about this moment.>

“Baby girl. I…” <Pretty obvious voice switch here. No tag required.>

“Don’t call me that! I told you my key was a deal breaker, and you were going to take it, anyway. Damon, you gave me to seven men and fucked me, too. Then you called me Stephanie and told me you were proud of me. You, you…., you made me feel so special. Then... Damon, you promised.” <A tag would have ruined this line, imho. The voice switch is obvious again and a tag would have interrupted the flow of her rant.>


And if I piqued your interest, the working title is 'Repercussions.' Should be out in a month or so. The author smirked as she self-promoted her coming story.

 

[SimonDoom]

Not having read the story, I'd say that dialogue tags would create a different scene. The way it's written now, I get the impression of two disembodied voices: the listener isn't looking at them, doesn't see them, is likely not much aware of his surroundings beyond the words spoken. It's almost abstract.

If you add even a single dialogue tag, you place the listener much more firmly in the scene and make him part of it.

I agree. It's a little distancing for the waiters to be treated as indistinguishable, almost as abstractions, but I think it's deliberate here. Hemingway wants to draw you into the scene in a particular way.

Plus you create a logistical problem if you add tags, since the waiters are not identified by name, gender, or age. What noun/pronoun do you use in the tag? You don't want to say "The first waiter said," and "The second waiter said." That would be klunky. We don't know enough about the waiters at this point for us to be told more about them through the tags.

Later we find out that the waiters are male and one is younger than the other. Confusion is never a problem in this story. We know just enough at all times to know what we need to know and for the story to move forward.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Interesting factoid about Hemmingway. He only wrote about 500 words a day. He was the consummate wordsmith, making sure that every one he used counted. I'm guessing that flowed into his use of tags and scene design, too. True master of the craft.

 

[SimonDoom]

“How long?” I sat on top of the ladder and glared down at him. “How long before I got too old, and you got rid of me, gave me to one of your friends, or just threw me out on the street?” <To me, the long tag in the first line slows down the pace of that line giving it the gravity it deserves. She's thought about this moment.>

“Baby girl. I…” <Pretty obvious voice switch here. No tag required.>

“Don’t call me that! I told you my key was a deal breaker, and you were going to take it, anyway. Damon, you gave me to seven men and fucked me, too. Then you called me Stephanie and told me you were proud of me. You, you…., you made me feel so special. Then... Damon, you promised.” <A tag would have ruined this line, imho. The voice switch is obvious again and a tag would have interrupted the flow of her rant.>

This is a good example of a passage where tags would add nothing. It's crystal clear via several other indicators who is speaking.

The first line is identified as "I," presumably a woman, speaking to a man ("glaring down at him").

The second line is a man, addressing his "Baby girl."

Then in the third line we learn they are Damon and Stephanie. No confusion.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

This is a good example of a passage where tags would add nothing. It's crystal clear via several other indicators who is speaking.

The first line is identified as "I," presumably a woman, speaking to a man ("glaring down at him").

The second line is a man, addressing his "Baby girl."

Then in the third line we learn they are Damon and Stephanie. No confusion.

Thank you my(kink) Lord...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Cagivagurl is right that most readers don't think about these things as they read, but I think subconsciously that most of us care about them. It's like listening to a song. 99% of listeners don't care to analyze the chord pattern, but even if they know nothing about music they know if it sounds good or not. Readers are the same way.

I agree with this. If your dialogue tags attract the readers attention then you probably aren't using them properly.
They should be the background music of a scene, not a focus.

 

[THBGato]

he used bare dialog to slow down the pace of a story. Think about Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants.

I don't think it's the bare dialogue in Hills... that slows the reader down so much as the objective 3rd person limited narrator, so we have no access to the characters' thoughts/past and all must be inferred. That, and Hemmingway giving direct translations of Spanish phrases ("hear me" for "oigame") which is really bloody confusing for non bi-linguals.

I also disagree with the premise. Badly done bare dialogue slows you down; if it's done well, it speeds the pace up.

 

[AllenWoody]

I'm with Rob_Royale on this one.
I tend to start a conversation with tags and then move away from it as long as it's obvious who is speaking, or unless I need a descriptor.

She hesitated before responding, "it was just lunch at Casa Bonita, he had some questions about the business."

Hold on just a second, now! Casa Bonita is right next to that No-Tell Motel, the Whisper Inn. That, and it is at best second-rate Tex Mex. No one meets up there just to "talk business".

 

[Voboy]

Time and place.

There are times to slow down the narrative, times to speed it up. Using "more rapid" ways of writing to do that is something any writer should be able to do.

Dialogue, especially tagless dialogue in short, terse bursts, is one of those "more rapid" ways. There are others.