Incest... why won't this topic just go away???

[insideShiraz]

First of all...

I'm not 'gonna read through this whole thing right now...

Second of all, Tiggs, you're a Babe...I love your picture

Third of all, the thread's opening statement is misquoting the Bible all over the place. Abram/Abraham said Sarah was his OWN sister because he was afraid that they would kill him to take her...When the ruler found out that she was his wife, he was pissed because he didn't want a curse to fall on him, gave him a blessing to apease the god's and under his breath said,"Now get the Fuck outta' here"...At least, that's what I remember from memory...

And fourthly, Tiggs, you're a Fox...

 

[Cheyenne]

Roger, excellent post, very well written. I just wasn't going to bother putting any more energy into this topic myself, but I'm glad I read your summary.

And Shiraz? See, you do make sense when you want to.

 

[wolfy]

President

Hell, even the President of the United States of America has tried it. "I didn't inhale," he said, and the American public thought, 'Oh, well, that's ok then'. Do you think he would still have become President if he'd said "I fucked my sister but it's ok - I didn't ejaculate"

If this is Clinton we are talking about I wouldn't rule anything else.....wonder if his sister kept the dress?

Btw nothing against clinton he can screw sheep for all I care as long as he dosn't give New Zealand any political favors in exchange.




[Edited by wolfy on 10-09-2000 at 07:39 PM]

 

[wolfy]

Blah

Sorry that quote was by roger and it wasn't all of the part i wanted was the first time I tried to use it and it didn't work very well.

 

[Never]

Deborah. Do you have to do drugs to become that demented or does it come naturally?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hmmmmmm.

 

[Nicole]

Incest... why won't this topic just go away???

Because people keep posting on this damn thread that's why.

 

[poohlive]

Siraz... What you said is half true. Abraham did say it was his sister first, and then his wife later. THe problem is, that after the king asked about it Abraham admitted that they were both. Wife/sister and Husband/brother. I didn't misquote. It's in Genesis 20,12 "Besides she is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not my mother; and she became my wife."
It's right in there.

When I was talking about the two major religions, I wasn't going on which ones the most people are involved in now. I was thinking as the earth in it's entirity past and present, what were the two major religions. But you are somewhat right, I don't think christianity would be in there, probably hebrew, maybe another one. Anyway from all of these religions, the bible is their source. Many people to this day agree that everything in it is either true or a symbol of the truth.
I don't believe either, actually, but I just saw a few things and thought I would point them out to everyone. I put both passages on this post if anoyone would like to see them.
I again want to thank everyone for their participation, and logical discussion on this topic...
even Deborah, in her own way participated in this...

 

[Guest]

Re: First of all...

Second of all, Tiggs, you're a Babe...I love your picture

And fourthly, Tiggs, you're a Fox...

Ummmmmmmmm.... And you're blind? lol

 

[Never]

http://www.adherents.com/rel_pie.gif

Does this help?

Um, Hebrew isn't a religion, it's a language. Judaism is a religion and it's not even close to being the largest now or ever.

 

[GuyJD]

LET'S GET REAL HERE!!!

*sigh* Willing to openly discuss incest. Its wrong. And thats a fact. Number 2. This is the what, 4th thread to be started on the subject in a week? Isn't that an exhaustive enough discussion for you considering there are around 100 replies on the other 3?

There is not intelligent discussion on this. Proponents of incest will not agree that it is wrong. Dissidents of incest will not agree that it is right. Why rehash it, the hash was done to death the first 3 times.
************************************************************
So KM, who or what says that incest is wrong? Local laws? State Laws? Federal Laws? Well, when I was being trained at the police academy, I don't recall any such laws. This is, actually, a moral issue. Don't get me wrong. While I don't condone such a thing, I don't object to it neither. To each his/her own, I guess. I have never had a crush on my sister, cousin, mother, or aunt. But love has no bounderies (nor lust,for that matter). But to prove that it is only a moral issue of society, I leave you with the name.........JERRY LEE LEWIS. We remember him, right? The performer who had "Great Balls Of Fire" for his 13 year old cousin and married her. His soaring career sank as fast as the Titanic because society looks down on that.

 

[poohlive]

Hey.. thats helpful. Ok, so Christianity is the largest religion, and they do use the Bible as a reference to all their work. Thanks for clearing that up...

 

[Deborah]

It just comes naturally Never. That little blurb of mine was just a little parody directed at those who pass off bullshit as truth. Slut_boy just loves it when I yank his chain anyway. Go ask him.

Hey, Poohlive, did you get past page 50 in the bible yet? When you read another 100 pages or so and get to Leviticus 18 I'll explain all this incest business to you.

If it wasn't for incest (and abortion), Ramlick wouldn't be here.

 

[Laurel]

Of course my story "Goodbye Sis" is absolutely the truth and nothing but the truth.

But of course! Everything I learned, I learned from Deborah. And "The Joy of Sex".

 

[Lovely Latina]

Deborah, you are fucking odd!!

Aww Deb,

Don't listen to "The Panty Professor" (HEY PANTIEEEEEEEEEES!)...

I think the way you fuck is just fine baby!

 

[Xander]

LOL@ Deborah, Slut_boy and Spicy-Butt LL.

Now, if I cramp up here at my office, laughing, I would have some serious explaining to do. LOL

 

[Deborah]

LL, thanks for reassuring me the fucking was fine. Again, I am so sorry for putting the bruises on that sweet ass. And Laurel, if you don't quick picking at me you are not going to watch next time.

Hey Slut_boy, I don't think you know yet who Lisa is in the story "The Panty Professor." Go to the thread "YOU WANTED THE ASS ... YOU GOT THE ASS!" That is what is under those 100% cotton high-cut briefs.

 

[R Nitelight]

Incest... why won't this thread just go away???

 

[Weird Harold]

[BSo, if the majority of society is telling you - through jokes, insults, the law (and even mythology) - that what you're doing is "sick" then it can't be doing too much for your self esteem. Not only are you treated as a criminal- you're also treated as though your "abnormal". That must surely be damaging to someone's sense of self worth[/B]

A very good post, Roger. I think you are on the right track with your thoughts about the damages caused by societal pressure.

However, I think you're stretching a point on how family dynamics work. I agree with much of what you say in this regard. Where I think the argument fails once a relationship moves outside the immediate family.

Consider, two cousins meet for the first time at a family reunion. Both are of legal age, and an attraction forms between them. Where is the coercive factor there? Such a relationship would be the emotional equivalent of two strangers meeting at a convention.

There are many cases of relatives, even brothers and sisters, who don't live together and seldom see each other. It seems to me that there is little ground for a claim of 'abuse of trust' in such situations.

I think it's interesting to note that in the NY statue that was cited, that "knowingly" is included. At least in that one state, knowledge of the degree of relationship is required for incest to legally exist.

 

[Weinergirl]

no fuel for society's machine

It's one of the last bastions of perversions so to speak. In a way I think it's popularity stems from our resistance to restriction. In todays society-we have premarital sex, we get divorced, we have anal sex, we have childeren later in life if at all, we have a top rated sitcom with gay characters, we have inter-racial marriages, girls actually like sex as much as guys and show it! There are no shock value in these things except for grandma (but wait, hasn't drunk uncle Herbert been hinting that she and
aunt Hilda aren't only living together to save money?!.)


Why the fascination and why won't it go away? Is it simply a fantasy situation that is sexual? Am I some how passively advocating something that's potentially and generally viewed as unhealthy(and in most cases a terrible circumstance) for some people? If it made me uncomfortable I simply wouldn't read it; right?. The thing that sticks out to me is; incest is a no-no b/c it really doesn't serve society. Most instituitions and social mores exist because they support chosen social standards or feed society's goals. Marriage is a good example but this post is pretty long as is.(I'm married for the record)

Incest doesn't yield many benefits (see examples Roger listed in his post). We don't get strong-genetically desirable offspring. It doesn't yield a large source of revenue like prostituition (keeping males strong and stress free as to increase production is always a good thing). Many of us eeewww incest because we've been socialized to see it that way. I'm sure the Eygptians and Royals accepted (or so calmly accept) their marriages to their relatives the same way they would've for a none related suitors/matches. Low eeewww factor because they were told it was OK and expected. Now a days if we want to increase wealth or keep it in the right hands we put our money in a swiss accounts, invest it, launder it in dummy companies, etc. Less hemophilia and some of those common girls/boys are way cuter than our cousins anyway.

I feel that there are what we consider to be (and argueably are) horrible things that happen on this world. That is a sad fact. Many times the best way we feel to handle such things is to (ironically) restrict and censor. I don't believe that is a successful way to handle many of the social problems we have. I read some incest stories and I get a sexual charge out of it. Do I advocate rape, incest, or molestation? No! these have incredibly harmful affects/effects on people's lives. A broken person cannot make any contribution to society thereby directly gaining any personal benefit. Will I continue to read stories that are posted? I'm not sure. I haven't since I've been pondering such things but I know that I can't pretend soemthing doesn't exist by closing my eyes niether am I going to serve any grand moral purpose by pretending something isn't true about myself. Perhaps I've spoiled the fun for myself with this particular issue. Maybe.

Yes I know I think too much. thanks posting the question pooh!

 

[Guest]

Kissing Cousins...

Interesting points, Weinergirl.

The thing that sticks out to me is; incest is a no-no b/c it really doesn't serve society. Most instituitions and social mores exist because they support chosen social standards or feed society's goals. Marriage is a good example...

That made me think about the reasons why society is so resistant to incest. Obviously, one reason is the genetic abnormalities that result from inbreeding. (I read somewhere that the Egyptian Pharaohs eventually became quite physically weak - one of the factors that led to their civilisation dying out.)

But I think another reason is to do with power. When the institution of marriage first started, it was more to do with money/land and strengthening the family line than love. As far as I know, arranged marriages, were the norm. A father would marry his daughter off to someone else's son so that those two families would become more strongly bound together, and therefore more powerful. The dowry was part of this exchange. But, if your daughter were to marry your son, there'd be no financial gain. The family isn't benefitting in any way. Add that to the fact that any offspring are liable to have genetic abnormalities and you can see why our society developed such a strong abhorance towards incest.

Originally posted by Weird Harold
Consider, two cousins meet for the first time at a family reunion. Both are of legal age, and an attraction forms between them. Where is the coercive factor there? Such a relationship would be the emotional equivalent of two strangers meeting at a convention.

That's a fair enough point - I was talking about close relations, really. I mentioned that "Unless the incestuous couple are twins / the same age, there is going to be an imbalance of power". I suppose you could say that cousins / distant relatives are another group who don't necessarily have this imbalance of power, although the couple may still have to put up with a certain degree of disapproval. Having said this, there doesn't seem to be quite as much societal pressure against cousins and other more distant relatives shacking up. European Royalty, for example, were forever getting it on with their cousins, second cousins etcetera.

Somebody mentioned Jerry Lee Lewis earlier. The general public certainly didn't approve of his marriage to his first wife but that probably had less to do with them being cousins and more to do with the fact that she was only 13 when they married.

Here's something I've been wondering - is sex between cousins / more distant relatives even classed as incest? The definition for incest, according to my Collins dictionary, is: "sexual intercourse between two people too closely related to marry". I'm not sure of my facts here but I thought that there was no law against cousins marrying. What are the actual laws regarding this?

So, why is it that society seems less bothered by cousins marrying than sexual relations between closer relatives?

Obviously one reason is that the chances of genetic abnormality are reduced. If a woman procreates with her brother, father, uncle or grandfather, then her child is only going to draw on the genetic resources of one bloodline. The risk of abnormality is high. There's no "fresh blood" being brought to the mix.

If she has children with her cousin, though, there is going to be at least some new genetic information being introduced, so the risks of abnormality are going to be reduced.

Going back to the whole thing with marriage as a business venture - in the past a father may well have married his daughter off to her cousin if this was going to bring in extra land, livestock or finances.

This could explain why cousins having sex isn't quite as much of a taboo.

 

[Deborah]

I think the movie "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" contributed to much of the fascination with incest in the past 25 years. I mean, who doesn't identify with cannibal inbreds?

 

[Guest]

Up The Crick With Only One Paddle (and a helluva hunger)

Heehee. Yeah, why didn't old Oedipus just go the whole hog?
Fuck yer Mom 'n' eat yer Pop (Those cannibalising inbreds just don't stop)

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Kissing Cousins...

Here's something I've been wondering - is sex between cousins / more distant relatives even classed as incest? The definition for incest, according to my Collins dictionary, is: "sexual intercourse between two people too closely related to marry". I'm not sure of my facts here but I thought that there was no law against cousins marrying. What are the actual laws regarding this?

Somewhere on one of these threads, the text of the New York state staute on incest was posted. It is fairly typical I think, and it includes first cousins.

The genetic risk of procreation between first cousins is probably pretty minor unless it becomes a "family tradition" as was the case with European royalty. i.e. the offspring of cousins who marry cousins have a much greater chance of reinforcing recessive genes than do "the black sheep" cousins who are the only ones in the family to inter-marry.

Given the number of broken families today, the chance of siblings not having an established "pecking order" because of separation is much greater than it has been in the past. I don't know if there is a corresponding increase in sibling incest as a result, but it wouldn't surprise me. (it does seem to be a recurring theme in incest stories.)

Historically, the taboo against incest seems to wax and wane. It isn't the absolute that many people apparently believe it is. I personally think that the outrage and abhorance should be directed at the abuse of trust and molestation aspects of the most common occurances, and less on the family relationship aspects. I can't see any reason for society and the legal system intruding into private lives to break up a happy and fulfilling situation simply because of some degree of blood relationship. I can see a pressing need to protect minors from abuse and molestation regardless of relationship to the molestor.

 

[Rolly]

one last time or try again

Oliver and Roger, good posts. Both of you are clear and present you ideas well, and bring dignity to the forum even though you have an opposing opinion. Almost more important than the topic is the way the discussions have proceeded. Several times the discussion has been forced to stop with aggressive posters who anger at just the mention of a topic. Occasionally the controversy dissolves into insults. Hard to present your ideas in this atmosphere, and this is at a forum designed to discuss volatile sexual topics. Was Southerhelle correct? Others enter, stating lets drop it and forget it. Why? If individuals have the need to discuss a topic, let them, but lets not sweep it under the rug. Maybe you can make a useful point by rational debate. Is that not what Laurel set the forums up for, and is that not the purpose of a sex discussion site? Why do other get so angry when they see a view radically different from their own? Fear? I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me. Why would I expect blanket acceptance? I would be naive to believe that I would, and I understood that from the beginning. And never once I have ever stated I do not want to block someone's opinions and ideas. How could I? I may not accept them , just as others do not accept mine. That's fair play and somewhere along the way we may all learn, even if it is only how to rationally debate.
At first I was not going to post to this topic, believing it was a lame attempt to insult me. Molested at five years old come on, let's get the facts straight at least if you are going to try and insult. Well enough, on with the discussion.

Oliver, I agree with your idea that childbirth from incestuous love is not a desirable result and I did state that in my narrative months ago. Your second point of family stress caused by incestuous love is also valid. Also in my narrative I stated that I felt parent / sibling sex was to close of a relationship to be comfortable (my opinion, no criticism to those who participate). My suggestion was uncle/ nieces, aunts/nephews, and brother / sister. My idea was that introduction to sex was best undertaken by adult and a mature teen (legal age). The older mentor emotionally guiding the younger member and caring for them. This in fact could remove the stress many adolescents feel regarding the desires they have to enter the adult world of sexuality. Most relationships would be of only a short duration and when the learning and teaching period was over the younger person would be ready to safely try and sample other types of relationships. Why not move the sexual awaking into the realm of family scope and address it there and deal with it up front. I would suggest that most families try and pretend that it does not occur or else council their youth to wait till marriage, when in fact they themselves were sexually active at a very young age and had mostly unhappy experiences with it. Let's demystify this whole sexual metamorphosis. Most of the myth is perpetuated on our youth by advertising. Sexuality is only part of life and nature - it just is not that mystical, as we are lead to believe. Talk to your children regarding sexuality and warn then of improper touching and give them the true and total picture about what sex is. As they grow older, discuss intercourse and SDT and give them the tools they need. As I have stated 80 % of adolescents have had intercourse by age 18. Many hide this from their families, and this to me would be a source of family stress i.e.; the Saturday night party assault, STD, hurt and hidden emotions, ect. So why not let them experiment inside the family as this is the safest place to do so.

Roger; Thank you for welcoming me back, and apologies for not noting so due to the duress I experienced in a previous thread. From my side, no hard feelings and I continue to view you as my friend - the funny Scottish guy in the jesters outfit that fooled the entire board.
The first point in your post about the imbalance of power being harmful: I would agree if we were discussing children. Since I was only considering adult teens, I do not believe that this is concern. Consider the case of the mature teen male with an aunt. One would be hard pressed to see how a legal age male would be affected by an older aunts authority, if she had any over him. I realize that you might feel that if the sexes were reversed, the female might be dominated and controlled. But remember young women desire sex and emotional love at that age just as strongly as a male. This is something that they want. They are not innocent. In this day and age we see young women emerging as an aggressive force. We see them at times acting as ruthless as males. Roger, gone long a go is that naïve, young, foolish and innocent women. Also your augment of an imbalance of power in a relationship is something that has occurred in any marriage where a women has had no income and is at the will of a domineering older husband. Sex by it self is not damaging. You need to have molestation or physical control or have the younger person feel guilty or the sexual act to be damaging. All good reasons to move this sexual awaking right out front in the family life and deal with it directly. I will post a letter here that was sent to me recently from a psychologist, to reinforce my view (note this is quoted with out permission so I will with hold the posters identity for their protection).

In reference to my narrative;

<Thank you for a beautifully written story. As a psychologist I can only agree
with your comments about incest. When you have two consenting people the damage
is usually caused by the short-sighted attitude of a society that see sex as a
'work of the devil

Thank you again>

Roger the second part of your first post I agree with fully. If everyone that surrounds you tells you something long enough, you can be made to believe it. We have seen this idea applied in history several times. I believe another name for it is brain washing. The Khymer Rouge applied it well in Cambodia in the late 1970’s, when in their great experiment, they broke and destroyed the family unit of an entire country, turning sibling again parent and parents against siblings.
It may be interesting to note that the culture in the Sandwich Islands happily existed and flourished until the European culture brought STD, and various other plagues, and the ideas of Christianity to them. They indulged in incest and used it as a way to strengthen the family bonds. Odd how there were no wards full of emotionally battered and scarred people there. Also incest was well accepted in Egypt a culture that flourish for millennia, although the social application of sex in the family is not well known with them.

So all I have ever suggested is to demystify sex with the main focus being an older family member helping a mature teen emerge into this new understanding safely. From there they can go confidently into the world to explore new relationships, ones that may not even be sexual. But at least the sexual aspect has been fulfilled safely for the time and the flames calmed. A question for the men; when you were younger did you every worry about not experiencing sex before you die? The mature adult female teen also has the same concern just include the desire for love also. The desire for sex is strong and not going to be with held in either sexes.

For those who believe my narrative was fictional; yes it did occur in Lilliput, an island that is perfectly circular with no bays on a flat ocean that drops off into a void . And of course if there was no abuse, how could it be true? Yes, you are entitled to your opinions, and yes, I do thank you for reading my work, as controversial as it is.

Oh Roger, thank you for looking up the definition of incest and posting,. It was correct… no sarcasm intended, most individuals think it means more or abuse or ??.

Respect to all,
Jane Rolly


No man can regard the way of war as good. It has simply been our way. No man can evaluate the eternal contest of weapons as anything but the sheerest waste and the sheerest folly. It has been simply our only means of final arbitration. Any man can suggest reasonable alternatives to the judgment of arms.

But we are not creatures of reason except in our own eyes.

Robert Ardrey
"African Genesis"
1961

 

[Deborah]

Jane, your verbosity is overwhelming me. What you are saying, I think, is that fucking your uncle demystifies sex. Cool. What I want to know is, are you currently gangbanging all your nephews?