ID Card's

[OUTSIDER]

It might come as a surprise but we in the UK don't have to carry proof of ID except in times of war, WW1 & WW2 being the last time we brits were made to carry them.

Now last night on TV there was a question from an audience member on the "Question Time" TV show asking isn't it time we Brits were made to have ID cards again.....after all the rest of europe has them?

I'm not a fan of ID cards because I know they'll end up being misused by our police force's and govt, also you will not be allowed to see what is kept on the card ( they were talking about using smart cards the last time this idea came up ) and the police would carry card readers in their cars.

The most disturbing thing I heard about the last plan for ID cards came from a website a while back when researching about this subject, the plan was to use ID cards with a photo on the outside a memory chip on the inside and most worrying of all a magnetic induction loop built into the card.

A magnetic induction loop is the same technology shops use to stop people walking out of the shop with goods and is pretty old tech now (they can be buillt into door ways or even walls, floors and ceilings), what this means is that if you "have" to carry the card and they can read the card remotely (while the card is still in your pocket) without you knowing, you could be under surveilance without knowing it.

I know this post s all over the place but I was wondering what you thought about this, about the fact we don't carry them at the moment and the fact that we might have to ?

 

[shadowsource]

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[Wyatt]

Hi,being a fellow brit I would despise ID cards for the same reason as Shadowsource.Just another way for the prols to be monitored.Why not just put a crystal on our palms when we are born...oh sorry,that's Logans Run.Probably be forged anyway.I like your avatar outsider.Bet it completely baffles the Yanks.

 

[Boo]

Ditto Shadowshource

In the same vein, I am having a hard time explaining to my friends why it isn't necessarily a good thing for law enforecement to have more easy access to phone taps of its citizens. In the wake of the events of September 11, you hear advocacy of less stringent phone tap standards from all arenas. Knowing how great the lattidute of the FBI and CIA is already in this area, I shudder to think of the abuses that will be commited if carte blanc is given to law enforecement in this area.

 

[bigrednz]

IMHO

I don’t think photo ID’s are necessarily a bad thing, we started using photo drivers licenses about 18 months ago but the only personal info they carry is your name, address, age and weather your an organ donor. You can also get a photo on all your credit cards which makes it hard to use them if there not yours.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've had two photo ID's for so long I've forgotten what it's like to not have them. I haven't noticed how they've decreased my civil liberties. I flash them when I'm pulled over for speeding (back in the day when I drove), when entering a military installation, or when writing a check. We don't have a "Checkpoint Charlie" for a soviet or nazi style ID check to cross a line in the sand.

Identification is something that helps parts of society in general, though since I've never lived in a society that doesn't use them, I would have no idea how transitioning into one might bother a person.

 

[shadowsource]

I don’t think photo ID’s are necessarily a bad thing, we started using photo drivers licenses about 18 months ago but the only personal info they carry is your name, address, age and weather your an organ donor. You can also get a photo on all your credit cards which makes it hard to use them if there not yours.

We're not talking about photo IDs per se. I have one that is called a driver's license. We're talking about "smart" ID cards that can contain your criminal history, all of your personal info, your medical records, and that can even be scanned from a distance so that cops or spies could know everything about you without your even knowing that you're being accesssed. That sort of thing.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose a President actually wanted - and secured - the authority to confiscate weapons from certain people. Suppose hundreds of thousands of right winger attended meetings decrying the government's efforts. Suppose they had these smart IDs. Suppose the ATF had taken their complete personal, medical and criminal histories as they filed into and out of the meetings. Who the fuck wants this to happen? That's why I belong to the American Civil Liberties Union, which opposes oppression for everyone, not just liberals.

The terrorists aren't our only enemies in all of life.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Hi,being a fellow brit I would despise ID cards for the same reason as Shadowsource.Just another way for the prols to be monitored.Why not just put a crystal on our palms when we are born...oh sorry,that's Logans Run.Probably be forged anyway.I like your avatar outsider.Bet it completely baffles the Yanks.

Someone suggested I should put up a Brit avatar when the WTC thing happened and this is the most British AV I had .

We have photo ID driving licence's but you don't have to carry them all the time and if you get pulled over by the police and you don't have it with you, you get what we call a "producer", where you have to go to a police station with it and all your other car docs within a set time frame.

 

[Mensa]

WARNING!

Smart cards, if they bother using them at all, are merely the first step. Planning for much more sophisticated control procedures are already in the pipeline. Most involve DNA so as to foil fraud. Others involve subcutaneous microchips. Some even more esoteric.

All in the interest of greater public safety of course.

 

[OUTSIDER]

I've had two photo ID's for so long I've forgotten what it's like to not have them. I haven't noticed how they've decreased my civil liberties. I flash them when I'm pulled over for speeding (back in the day when I drove), when entering a military installation, or when writing a check. We don't have a "Checkpoint Charlie" for a soviet or nazi style ID check to cross a line in the sand.

Identification is something that helps parts of society in general, though since I've never lived in a society that doesn't use them, I would have no idea how transitioning into one might bother a person.

I'm not against ID's per se, it's the idea of "having" to carry one and the idea of having a smart card that you can't read and that can be read remotely without you knowing and used to plot your whereabouts.

 

[bigrednz]

Re: Re: IMHO

Put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose a President actually wanted - and secured - the authority to confiscate weapons from certain people. Suppose hundreds of thousands of right winger attended meetings decrying the government's efforts. Suppose they had these smart IDs. Suppose the ATF had taken their complete personal, medical and criminal histories as they filed into and out of the meetings. Who the fuck wants this to happen? That's why I belong to the American Civil Liberties Union, which opposes oppression for everyone, not just liberals.

The terrorists aren't our only enemies in all of life.

I guess it must be one of the perks of living NZ, we tend to be a little less paranoid about big brother constantly looking over our shoulder. I personally don’t have a problem with the idea of smart cards, just the amount of info the carry. I guess that’s where the problem lies as unless you have access to a reader you don’t know just what’s on your card. It’s been my experience that unless an overwhelming majority say no, which is a hard thing to organize due to the general apathy that runs rapent these days, the government usually does what they want!

 

[Gilly Bean]

Ok, here in the states, you start carrying an ID as soon as you cna drive. It's called a liscence. You have to have it to drive, you have to have it to write checks, to buy liquor. If you do not have a liscence, then you are required to have a state ID by the time you are 18. It is the same thing, it just doesn't allow you to drive.

Since we have had them here for as long as I have been around, I fail to see the down side. It's not like our police come knocking on our doors, and make us show them our ID.

Sure, if we get pulled over, we have to. Honestly, can someone explain the downside to me? It doesn't sound to me like they are enforcing it to become a nazi bootcamp, where everyone has an identity stamped into thier heads, or anything.

It is just nice to know that if someone gets pulled over, or on to a plane, or anything, that we know who it was.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Gilly your just talking about a normal ID but what I'm talking about is a super ID card that opens all kinds of new cans of worms, now I have nothing to hide and if they wanna know I went shopping today then they can ask me but you know that when ever theres new technology out there it's gonna get abused and the govt and police are just as likely to abuse a super ID as anybody else.....maybe more.

 

[Barb Dwyer]

I can't believe anyone is for the erosion of our personal freedoms!

I do not find any solace in knowing that law abiding citizens can be monitored without their knowledge or consent at any given time. But our society is already speeding towards that scenario.

Many cities now have surveillance cameras on street corners. Most highways have mounted cameras every so many feet to "monitor traffic conditions and accidents". Ha! (can we say speed traps?)

Many companies install cameras in offices and manufacturing plants under the guise of loss prevention - which is a noble goal. Yet I do not relish the thought of a minimum wage security officer watching me walk down the hall or into the bathroom.

Do you use debit cards? Or credit cards? Of course you do. Then merchants from the department store where you buy clothes to the grocery store where you buy food have a record of every purchase you make.

These smart cards have your credit history and medical history imbedded in the magnetic strip. Do you want everyone with access to this card to have the ability to peruse this information? Current laws are somewhat strict in regard to who can access this information and what they can do with it. That will all go out the window if everyone can see it.

Identity theft is growing by leaps and bounds. Will these cards prevent that? No. It will make it easier to commit crimes. Until they start requiring some DNA based identification, we are at the mercy of the merchants, insurance agents and others to safeguard our personal and private information. The more people who have that, the less secure we are.

But who wants to endorse retina patterns or fingerprint technology as means of ID? That simply means more pieces of ourselves (literally) that we are giving up for convenience or "security." I find it a frightening concept.

 

[shadowsource]

Amen -

This an excellent thread. Note that the avowed "libertarians" aren't here, aren't concerned about the proposed new laws in the US (there's another active thread about those, from FlamingoBlue). Mindful that we are under a significant threat, some liberal and right-wing polticians are collaborating to try to shape a practical, but less fascistic, response to the Bush Administration's very aggressive demands. Any mistakes will haunt us for many years to come.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[OUTSIDER]

Even worse for us Brits is the fact that we don't have a real freedom of information act, Tony Blair made a big noise about bringing one in when he first stood for prime minister (PM) in may 1997, but guess what......as soon as he got in he watered it down so much as to make it useless.

At least you guys and gals in the USA have the "Right" to see any info held on you.....we're fucking lucky to find out anything.

 

[shadowsource]

You have few guaranteed rights, indeed -

At least you guys and gals in the USA have the "Right" to see any info held on you.....we're fucking lucky to find out anything.

That's one of the things I hold against Blair. Clinton did't care much for civil liberties. either. In both cases, the GOP and the Tories are so statist in their law enforcement fetishism that we wind up backing people who don't give a damn. After Thatcher/Major and Reagan/Bush, any alternative seemed like a breath of fresh air. But I do like that we have a Bill of Rights, which comes in very handy if you can afford a good lawyer.

 

[Thumper]

Papus pleez!

I was watching the news a while ago and there was a report that some groups are calling for all middle eastern types in this country (citizen or alien) to be required to carry an identity card and papers. Does this not reek of Nazism? The Taliban are trying to require the same of non-muslims. (this I would have no problem doing as who wants to be stoned for not wearing a beard, not that I would ever be confused as to my origins)

Some groups are going way overboard in this country. A Delta Airlines pilot today asked a Pakistani man to deboard his plane. He said that his crew and he were not comfortable flying with him on board. Then stay home.

FDR said once that we have nothing to fear but fear itself....seems we have forgotten why that is so relevent.

 

[SweetNick]

Ok, here in the states, you start carrying an ID as soon as you cna drive. It's called a liscence. You have to have it to drive, you have to have it to write checks, to buy liquor. If you do not have a liscence, then you are required to have a state ID by the time you are 18. It is the same thing, it just doesn't allow you to drive.

Just as an aside to the main topic, as anything I felt has been stated for the most part, but here in the US there isn't any federal law mandating you carry ID with you, nor is it required by most states, at least not in PA. Sure, it helps to have one when you turn 18 to purchase your cigs, and if you have a drivers liscence, all the better, but I went until I was damn near 21 without any proof of age/address ID. All I had was a University ID for school, till I decided it was time to get a drivers license sometime after turning 20 (I live in a city with pretty good, though expensive, public transportation).

 

[sarahuk4]

Outsider, i am in total agreement with you over the "Smart card" idea, it is not right ......Yes the new drivers id licences are fine , they show the publicans for one thing , that the person is over 18 for legal drinking , my son , carries his all the time , but as you have pointed out that is a total different thing .....same as a picture on credit card, fair enough , will help stop credit card fraud , which once again is totally different .....

"Smart Cards " , will destroy our freedom ...and like you i have nothing to hide , but dont like the thought that certain people could get info about me .......

 

[Myrrdin]

I'm all in favour of having ID cards. I can't see any problem. The card won't carry any information that couldn't be obtained in another way.
The cards will have to be high tech to combat forgers. Just a simple laminated snapshot will be useless. It will have to have magnetic strips, holographic images etc , if it is to be really effective.
Any perceived loss of privacy will be far outweighed if it contributes to public safety.

 

[OUTSIDER]

I'm all in favour of having ID cards. I can't see any problem. The card won't carry any information that couldn't be obtained in another way.
The cards will have to be high tech to combat forgers. Just a simple laminated snapshot will be useless. It will have to have magnetic strips, holographic images etc , if it is to be really effective.
Any perceived loss of privacy will be far outweighed if it contributes to public safety.

Like I said earlier I'm not totaly against ID cards just these super ID cards that can be read remotely and can hold a shit load of info on you, on them.

We know our police force has misused it's powers in the past, you just have to look at that demo in London earlier this year where they penned people in a street for hours and hours with no food water or toilets, for which they are now being sued and before that how they did a deal with Thatcher in the 1980's to help her smash the unions in return for higher pay.

So once they can read who you are without stopping you how long do you think it'll be before they "are" stopping you to prevent you from going where you want to go.....I know I'm being a little paranoid about this but the price of freedom is constance vigilance.

 

[Myrrdin]

The Police did a fantastic job of stewarding that anti-globalisation march in London. They kept all the protesters in once place, keeping them away from potential ammo and limiting their targets for window smashing. A few tourists got penned up as well, but if every one had ID cards, they could have been checked and released away from the yobs.

 

[OUTSIDER]

The home secretary David Blunkett just said live on TV that the UK Govt are looking "very seriously" at ID cards, and if they decide to bring them in then they will have to be "compusory" ones as voluntary would be worthless.

The ID cards would carry either finger print info or an iris scan....George Orwell must be spinning in his grave.