I had it pointed out to me

[mikey2much]

That a similar incident happened in China. A man went to a school and using a knife he wounded twenty something children. The point is, I guess that if the guy in Ct had used a knife instead of two guns, the children would have merely been wounded instead of dead.

I say that makes little sense. The kid in Ct could've used an ax and he would've killed a lot of people. hundreds of thousands of people were killed with machetes a few years ago.

The problem is lack of treatment for the crazies we have roaming around homeless and hopeless here in America.

I see this as the natural result of the rich not wanting to support the social net to catch these lost souls. This is the result of policies that started back during the Reagan years . That is when the wealthy started their tax revolt and the trickle down effect has continued until we are at this sorry pass.

Stop mourning the dead children and celebrate the fact that the rich didn't have to spend a cent to stop this. That is the new American way. Save the money of the rich at the expense of everything else. The rich man's money is the only thing that counts in our country.

This is true in our healthcare system, our Justice system and our tax system. And the worst part of the whole stinking mess is that over half the voters seem to want it this way.

 

[sr71plt]

That's a typical stretch of a child-mind who can't give up his toys. It's idiocy to say just as many could be killed with a knife or an ax as with guns (these crazies never seem to show up with only one). First of it, it just isn't true. Second, you only have to look around to the other countries in the world with stricter gun controls to see that the statistics just don't hold for those opposing stricter gun controls.

You give a one-off example in China. OK, when was the last time this happened anywhere? The last time mass murder happened in the States with guns was just last week.

And it's just going to continue until you get a brain and wake up.

The chances are better, for all of you with guns, that it's going to happen to you (as was the case in Connecticut) or your loved ones--with your own gun--than that anyone else is going to kill you with a knife or an ax.

And that's the last I'll post on that--because both American society's footdragging on this and the attitude of you people putting forth lame-brain excuses to oppose stricter gun control absolutely disgust me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The problem is BOTH problems, Mikey. BOTH the way our mental health support has been destroyed AND the proliferation of unregulated attack weapons.

Not one or the other.

BOTH.

 

[mikey2much]

I don't own a gun

And the only people who I fear are going to break into my home are the cops and they always come heavily armed in large numbers, so a gun would be of little use toward saving my life. I really don't hate anyone enough to shoot them. Although I am beginning to think that all republicans should be put down like rabid dogs before they fuck up the rest of my country.

But I am not opposed to gun control. In this case the guy killed to get the guns. No gun control laws are going to prevent that. However a few months with a good mental health doctor might have helped.

 

[4glory6]

The problem with the mental health excuse (and another poster has already taken care of that attempt to wriggle out of facing the need for stricter gun controls) is that the same caveman thinkers who oppose gun control would also oppose someone's life being scrutinized enough to know they need the mental health treatment as well as any forced help that would be provided--they most certainly wouldn't support paying for the treatments. That was the crux of the Virginia Tech shooter. He was identified as needing the mental health, but he was protected from getting the help (or much of anyone knowing he was dangerous) by those privacy laws the Libertarians love so much. And he couldn't have afforded the treatments even if he accepted he needed them.

 

[_Lynn_]

And the only people who I fear are going to break into my home are the cops and they always come heavily armed in large numbers, so a gun would be of little use toward saving my life. I really don't hate anyone enough to shoot them. Although I am beginning to think that all republicans should be put down like rabid dogs before they fuck up the rest of my country.

But I am not opposed to gun control. In this case the guy killed to get the guns. No gun control laws are going to prevent that. However a few months with a good mental health doctor might have helped.

That would have taken more than a few months with a good mental health doctor.

 

[lovecraft68]

Its not just about mental health as in someone has to start testing people for "crazy" at a certain age.

Its about looking at life and quality of life in general and how fucking lazy everyone has become.

Parents surf the net instead of watching their kids.

Hell lately it seems to be falling on the government to prevent your kid from becoming obese. They have to take sweets and soda out of the schools.

The Government has to do that because heaven forbid a lazy parent pull that Twinkie out of little Billy's mouth and send him outside to play.

You know what another problem is? Its now become wrong to spank or discipline your child in anyway. There was an article on the net that said putting your kid in the corner can harm them emotionally.

so now these kids grow up to be amoral to think anything and everything they want to do they can do, there are no rules, just medication.

Its the people not the weapon.

I am sick and fucking tired of every person who owns a fucking gun and supports the right to, to be pointed at and somehow blamed every time some tragedy like this occurs.

I am especially tired of that fucking mealy mouth spineless fraud Pilot calling people who own guns names.

If this country was full of people like you Pilot 200 years ago we would still be under the queen because you would be condemning anyone that had the nerve to go against the common opinion.

so how does it feel to call Mikey out and find out he doesn't even own one you fucking loser?

I have never met anyone who was in the military who is so anti-gun. Then again Pilot was never in the military that's just another of his lies.

You know what? Do I feel as bad as everyone else does about these poor kids and their families? Of course I do.

But taking the guns away is yet another quick fix in a country full of them. We'll take away the guns and add more pills that's what we'll do!

and we'll all hand in our guns automatic or otherwise and let the Government protect us!

the lemmings want them to do everything else for them so they can do that too.

What really kills me is I own somewhere around 15 guns. Some don;t even work, they're part of a collection.

But main thing is I don't even hunt. I have a couple I take to the range and that's it. I won't even shoot an animal let alone consider shooting a person.

But know what?

Want my guns? Fucking come take them from my cold dead fingers. Because the day the law comes for them is the day I use them.

But you won't know about it because it won;t make the news, know what will?

A school fire caused by napalm made with common household chemicals and can be made by going to one of dozens of web sites that will tell you how to do it.

Guess cleaning supplies will be next.

In the meantime people should be grieving for these people and wondering if they can somehow help.

But that would be thee right thing.

Instead we get finger pointing assholes using children's deaths to promote their own platforms.

Good thing this is an author's hangout and we don;t have to worry about politics here.

I wish all you cowards would just go over to the threads the GB has about this and go get into a real debate.

 

[lovecraft68]

The problem with the mental health excuse (and another poster has already taken care of that attempt to wriggle out of facing the need for stricter gun controls) is that the same caveman thinkers who oppose gun control would also oppose someone's life being scrutinized enough to know they need the mental health treatment as well as any forced help that would be provided--they most certainly wouldn't support paying for the treatments. That was the crux of the Virginia Tech shooter. He was identified as needing the mental health, but he was protected from getting the help (or much of anyone knowing he was dangerous) by those privacy laws the Libertarians love so much. And he couldn't have afforded the treatments even if he accepted he needed them.

Hey Pilot, stop alting and shut the fuck up

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

It wouldn't take a psychic to know what garbage is in these posts, though.

The big, angry man hiding behind his wife's skirts whenever he doesn't have a gun in his hands to fondle. He's just the sort of clod who shouldn't be permitted to have a gun--and who could use a good mental health screening for his lack of anger management.

 

[lovecraft68]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

It wouldn't take a psychic to know what garbage is in these posts, though.

The big, angry man hiding behind his wife's skirts whenever he doesn't have a gun in his hands to fondle. He's just the sort of clod who shouldn't be permitted to have a gun--and who could use a good mental health screening for his lack of anger management.

You're reading everyone of my posts (most likely through your alt)

So grow up you sissy and stop pretending you're not reading every word I say.

And I'd go up against you in a "mental health" screening any day and watch them lock you up with the rest of the crazies who say they're spies and fighter pilots and singers and actors and federal liaisons and editors and professors and...... supposedly sporting goods salesmen

whew, getting carpel tunnel on that list.

Now why don;t you run along and write some more sub-standard gay fiction no one likes (or buys for that matter)

 

[TE999]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

That old saw applies to mental health as well. I don't care if there are millions of government shrinks on every street corner, unless you force a mentally ill person to go to one they often as not won't do it. Why? Because they're mentally ill and don't realize they need help.

Now we could force anyone who's deemed 'mentally ill' to go to a government shrink, but who's going to make that decision? The mentally ill have rights too; I think that legislation went down when Reagan was POTUS.

Unless we have some sort of mental health Gestapo (an acronym for Geheime Staatspolizei or Secret State Police BTW) keeping watch over everybody, you're going to have wack jobs like this going nutso on occasion.

This whole business about gun control making everybody safer is utter bullshit too. But that's a discussion for another time and anyone who uses this sad incident to whine about that is beneath contempt. (I think some news reader on CNBC tried it and was slapped down.)

 

[lovecraft68]

This whole business about gun control making everybody safer is utter bullshit too. But that's a discussion for another time and anyone who uses this sad incident to whine about that is beneath contempt. (I think some news reader on CNBC tried it and was slapped down.)

Thank you.

And you're right about shrinks, but as I said parenting also comes into play

Monsters, not kids, are being raised today. Today you spank your kid you go to jail.

so when the little darlings grow up why should they respect any laws at all, after all they have never been punished.

the most that happen is they get doped up on Ritalin so their mom and dad don;t have to lose facebook time dealing with them.

 

[4glory6]

I'm happy to see that I don't have to offer any more to say that the same cavemen who oppose tighter gun controls would also oppose better mental health provisions, M2M. Someone here has already done that for me.

And I see that this lovecraft68 blowhard is still at it. Booo, you don't scare me.

 

[The_Misplaced_Gypsy]

Mental Health.

There needs to be better support. It took at the least three years for me to convince my mother that she needed a little bit more help than I could give her as a sounding board. So she got help and is doing better. Its her childhood that has her in turmoil.

If someone used a knife on these kids, they would not have just been wounded. Someone walking through a school with a machete could do just as much damage, just to lesser people depending upon how many could out run him. It does not take much to hurt a kindergarten age child. Their bodies do not rebound as well as an adults does with a trauma like that. They would bleed out more quicker and shock would also take place quicker than with adults.

Some of you just do not think about things like that. Some of you think that just because they are young that their tiny bodies can take damage upon damage and that they will survive because of the fight with in them. Its not true. I know way to many people in the medical field that could argue with you over that.

Yes the US needs more gun control but they do not need to take the gun out of the hands of those that need said gun to defend themselves. Take my guns, PLEASE. I will still be left with my other weapons to protect myself with. But if YOU are going to go into a school full of kids and kill them, then at the least use both hands when you put the gun in YOUR mouth and pull the trigger. Otherwise, face up to the crime you committed and do not run away.

That is something else that I HATE. All these criminals that get there picture on TV when lead out of a building, them HIDING their faces? That right there should not be allowed. Why? I am so glad you asked... [smiles] Because if you are ashamed of what you did then you shouldn't have done it in the first place!!!

And while we are on the subject of criminals. Let me give another few pennies worth of my thoughts. I think the crime should FIT the punishment. If you killed someone by strangulation then you should be hanged. If you killed someone with an overdose then okay, have the needle in your arm. If you shot someone then you should be placed in front of a firing squad. YOUR RIGHTS went out the window when you took the rights away from another person. If you killed someone by stabbing them, I think you should be placed in a guillotine. If a Man raped someone then they should be castrated. I haven't come up with a punishment for a woman raping someone. If you are a pedophile, well a lot of the prisons have their own way of taking care of those people.

We have gotten out of the harsher punishments of old because of Human Rights. When you look at it though, you took the Rights away from another Human when you killed them.

This was a tragedy and this world lost a lot of lives that could have been Doctors, Artists, Singers, Nurses, Athletes. All we can do for them is keep their families in our thoughts and in our prayers if you are so inclined.

 

[4glory6]

To the claim that just as many deaths will be accomplished by a knife: OH PLEASE!!!

To the discussion of punishment for such a crime: nearly all of these gun fests have involved shooters who did themselves in. They hardly care what the punishment for this crime is. So, you're just trying to make yourself sound useful by even mentioning it.

The bottom line is that the crazy shooters are doing just fine with the current situation. It's the situation that has to change. Countries with tighter gun controls don't have the problem that the U.S. has with its current laws. It doesn't take a genius (and there seem to be a lot posting to this forum who aren't anything close to a genius) to figure out that reducing the number of guns obtainable is a more logical way to go that either increasing access or just leaving it the way it is.

Gun lovers point, as if this blows all the problems away, to the guy in the Connecticut shootings trying to buy a gun and being denied. The very process of being denied should have included notification to the authorities and an interview of this guy by the authorities, including their shrink. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what a 20-year-old guy decked out as a Goth wants to do with a gun. And if his mother didn't have guns it would have been that much harder for her son to take her guns and kill her. This is just another case of the greatest probabiliy of who your gun will kill--yourself or a loved one. Of course, there's the argument, I guess, that the guy would have killed her with a knife and then gone to the school and managed to kill 26 other people with the knife before he was taken down. (If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. Give a thought to how much longer it takes to take a person down with a knife as opposed to from a distance with bullets--then multiple by 26. You think people will just stand around and wait for their turn to be knifed up close and personal?)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can't do words today, evidently. Have some graphics instead.

And some words from someone else-- who actually knows what they are talking about;
http://gynomite.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/on-monsters-mental-illness-and-getting-help/

...There is no surefire preventative method to keeping people, mentally ill or mentally sound, from “snapping”. There is no therapist on earth that can completely predict or prevent a client’s behavior. This normally isn’t a huge news story, because mentally ill people are a danger to themselves more than anyone else, but we don’t get a lot of coverage on suicide.

So, knowing that there are no magic wands to wave over someone who has “troubling behavior” to make them better or keep them safe, let’s talk about how “getting help” works.

About 40 or so years ago, we decided to de-institutionalize our mentally ill in order to empower them to choose their own mental health. This was termed “client-centered care”. This was a fantastic idea, and has a lot of benefits, but here are the sticky parts of client-centered care...

 

[lovecraft68]

Just a fact about someone attacking a group of people with say a machete or hand axe or maybe even a long knife.

Think back to 911.

The terrorists held entire an airplane full of people at bay with....

Box cutters.

These guys could have been rushed and subdued by a group very easily-albeit at the risk of people getting their arms and faces slashed.

But no, everyone was afraid. Except of course the people on the Washington plane, but the others stayed put afraid of a blade an inch long.

If someone started swinging a machete in a theater or school or any crowded place know what will happen?

People will run. They will trip fall, trample each other and provide more fodder for the attacker. Real life is not Hollywood, no one there is going to step up and disarm that person. You have to have not just balls, but some prowess to do that.

Of course I know all the cyber tough guys will now step up and say "I could do that!" "I would do that!"

No, most likely you wouldn't. I'm not saying no one would, but get real that is out of most people's abilities and as I said 911 proved that.

Especially consider if you're family is with you, then the first thought is get them out.

I will repeat again at the waste of my time, that making weapons illegal is the quick fix over looking the more serious problem of this country is going off the deep end and people are getting more frustrated by the day and snapping like its going out of style.

This goes past the weapon of choice its the motive that is the issue.

I also think you saying it means nothing that he was denied a gun, is a cop out for your own platform it does mean something. They did not allow the guy a gun because he was not fit to have one and then he demonstrated why.

But I will concede something I have said before. It scares me they sell these things in goddamn wal-mart. At least keep the sale of guns to actual gun stores with more knowledgeable people selling them.

 

[4glory6]

Apparently you think of yourself as one of those cyber tough guys. But apparently you also think you've got to have a gun to be a tough guy. Otherwise you wouldn't be working so hard to make up stupid rationalizations. What a loser.

OK, genius, why do countries with tighter controls on guns not have the problems the United States has? True, it's not the guns that are the problem. It's the people behind the guns. And apparently Americans are just more violent than other nationalities are. Reading some of your posts highlights you as one of the more angry - and stupid - ones. This, however, just supports the argument to keep guns out of their hands as much as possible.

I think you yourself can be leveled with just some common sense. Wouldn't take a gun. In the brains department you are very light on your feet.

 

[lovecraft68]

Apparently you think of yourself as one of those cyber tough guys. But apparently you also think you've got to have a gun to be a tough guy. Otherwise you wouldn't be working so hard to make up stupid rationalizations. What a loser.

OK, genius, why do countries with tighter controls on guns not have the problems the United States has? True, it's not the guns that are the problem. It's the people behind the guns. And apparently Americans are just more violent than other nationalities are. Reading some of your posts highlights you as one of the more angry - and stupid - ones. This, however, just supports the argument to keep guns out of their hands as much as possible.

I think you yourself can be leveled with just some common sense. Wouldn't take a gun. In the brains department you are very light on your feet.

Because people here are crazier than in other countries these days, or just under so much stress (and medication) that they're cracking.

And I own guns because I enjoy shooting I go to the range and used to enter competitions. As I stated before I don't even hunt. Speaking of hunting its the drunken red necks swilling beer and running around in the woods accidentally shooting each other are the real disgrace to gun owners

All my guns are safely locked up except for one in my bedroom in case anyone ever breaks in.

And I would like to tell you that you make me very happy. People like you and your friend Pilot(or is this you) are so very quick to tout yourselves as smarter.

The fact you sink to the level of generalizations and name calling proves otherwise.

The two of you are "cyber smart guys" you never realize in your quest to get the last word against someone as stupid as you perceive me to be you prove yourself the fool. "smart people" would know better.

Anyway think what you want, you're the type who is never wrong, now go back to doing whatever your mom or wife is telling you to and stop taking your frustration out on others.

 

[4glory6]

You certainly do seem to have an obsession there, big guy. Maybe you need to see a shrink before you go off the deep end and shoot some people. Maybe the guns are trying to compensate for something?

 

[lovecraft68]

I did not bother to read your last post, but I imagine a rough interpretation would be.

Hey! Don;t you walk away! I'm smarter than you and need to get the last word to prove it!

I said I'm smarter than you dammit! Come back here you stupid big tough gun owning dummy! I need to prove my point to you!

 

[4glory6]

Apparently you're at a loss for clever things to say - or that you think are clever. That's good enough for me.

I think I've given discussion of substance on this thread - and asked questions that only got idiotic responses.

The people behind the guns are the problem. And they will continue to be a problem until American society does something different from what it is doing now. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what that different thing is.

 

[nakdsub]

Jeez people...think!

Remember prohibition, when we decided to outlaw alcohol? How'd that work out?

After our 35 year, 'war on drugs,' have we stopped the use of illegal drugs? I find it ironic that some legislators are discussing legalizing drugs to keep the violence down, but outlawing guns.

Gun control is a fantasy; like Claudia Schiffer giving up her career to become my love slave...pure fantasy. At last count there were 300,000,000 guns in the U.S. That's one for every man, woman, and child in this country.

When I was a kid we worried about Russia sending over an atomic bomb; we never worried about someone coming into our school and shooting us; yet, per capita, there were just as many guns then as there are now, and they were much more easily obtained. I bought my first gun, as 22 rifle, at the age of 12 for $3.00 at an auction. It is hanging on my wall today. In fact, I am looking at it right now.

Could there possibly be more involved here than the availability of guns?

 

[4glory6]

You are conflating two entirely different things, apparently because you like your toys more than you want to see more people live. Gun prohibition and gun control are only the same thing to those who don't give a damn about the problem and that mass killings are being carried out in public places all across the country on almost a weekly basis now. Do you have your head in the sand or do you just not care about anyone but yourself? If the latter, you're a fool, because you most likely go to public places too. You're not immune to being shot by a random-choice gunslinger.

 

[njlauren]

Every time something like this happens the NRA types love to talk about how people are killed with knives and axes and swords (and cars) and so forth, and that is crap for the very real reason that to kill the numbers we are talking about with one of those is next to impossible, the time it would take would mean that it is likely help could get there, etc. Despite what the ranting morons on the general board said, how the kids were killed with 'ordinary handguns', they weren't, they were shot in a matter of minutes, multiple times, before anyone could even hope to do anything.

If he had knives the teachers and such might have had a chance to stop him or at least slow him down. First of all, he got into the school by using the guns to blow out the glass and break in, and once in, the principal and school psychologist tried to tackle him, but he threw them off and shot them. If he had knives, they might have been able to slow him down enough until help could get there or until they could barricade the kids in, as it was he was prevented from killing more then the 20 who did (they all were killed in one classroom because he caught them unaware, which gave the teachers time in other places to save the kids). If Jonny Rambo didn't have a rifle with extended clips but had knives or whatever it is likely a lot more kids would have survived. Even if he just had the handguns, it would have been better off, but having a semi automatic military weapon with large clips made it like shooting tuna in a barrel. I could argue that even if he just had the handguns it might have been less carnage and he might have been able to be stopped, because those kind of guns have to be reloaded frequently (I think they hold 10 shots or so if i remember correctly), unlike the large capacity clip in the rifle.

In this case though, I cannot blame gun control laws entirely, the guns were legal, licensed weapons, what I do blame is the dumb cunt of a mother, who apparently was the gun nut, and I am not the least bit sorry she is dead. Apparently she used to take her two sons shooting all the time, so the perp responsible knew how to shoot and thus could kill 20 kids in the blink of an eye, and worse, from all reports I have read so far, the fucking kid had access to them. This kid was not normal, he was 20 years old, living at home and doing nothing, and while he had not displayed any violent tendencies supposedly (which I am dubious of), she just leaves them around where he has access? Someone else said he killer her to get them, but the news accounts of the last time I checked said the guns were in the house and available to him, they weren't locked away. To allow someone who obviously had issues access to guns is mind boggling....


Apparently she also wasn't too stable herself, common descriptions were she was 'high strung', which normally means something isn't right there.......

I personally blame both the parents, because where was waldo the father? Too busy being a hot shot executive to notice that his kid was a fuck up? Kid is living with the mother, not going to school, not working, not doing anything and they both are like "whatever?". This is a kid who apparently had no friends, and lived in his own dreamworld, and you just totally ignore it? This isn't a case where the kid was normal and just snapped something was broken all along and apparently they ignored it. He seems to be hiding out, I am sure he is a lot more worried about what people think of him then the fact that 20 kids and 7 adults died because he basically didn't give a shit, including knowing wifey was rambette and having a son who was off the rails.

In this case, the only argument about gun control is the rifle involved, there is basically no justification for those weapons, and given how fast they kill they are a menace. So called assault weapons are not sporting weapons, you can't use them for hunting (they are about as accurate as a guy with parkinson's at a gun range) and for self defense in the home or anywhere else are useless and dangerous, the only reason they exist is to give some small dicked guy the feeling he is Rambo, other then that, they are useless, and there is no one who can tell me that having extended load clips with 100 rounds is 'self defense'. About the only people who believe that are the idiots who live in red state land and believe they are going to fight off the black helicopters of the new world order and the like or the zombie apocalypse.....in the story in connecticut, if he had only the handguns it is likely the death toll would have been relatively small, in part because handguns are less accurate and effective then the rifle he was using and a lot slower.