I can't...

[RedMonkeyButt]

Write like I speak.

For whatever reason, I'll be in the groove of writing something and a sentence will come up that I write down. When I go back to read through what I wrote I always stop at that sentence and ask myself, "What the fuck were you thinking?"

For example, I actually just wrote this gem: "You got me fucked up if you think I'm going to follow you."

Now, if I had actually written that the way I say it out loud... "You got me fucked up thinkin' I'mma follow you." Oh yes, it gets worse.

Yeah. Because that's how I talk. I know this comes from the years I spent as a correctional officer. You don't exactly learn good speaking habits when you work in a prison. But it has leached into my writing. The sad part is I'm not entirely sure how to convey the amount of emotion that goes into that sentence without putting it just how I wrote it. But it flies in the face of the style of the rest of the story.

Does anybody else have this issue? Do you write like you speak? I'm talking first draft, balls to the wall writing before you have a chance to go back and pretty up the story for public consumption.

I think it was Bruce Willis in some movie that involved explosions who said, "I speak two languages - English and bad English." Well, I can add another one to that. I speak prison English.

 

[slyc_willie]

For the most part, I really do speak the way I write dialogue. That's how my dialogue comes out the way it does. However, if I wrote exactly the way I spoke, every once in a while I-I'd w-w-w-write llllllike th-this, because I have a stutter.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"You got me fucked up thinkin' I'mma follow you," is excellent dialogue. It paints a vivid portrait of the person speaking.

of course if no one in your story would say anything like that-- then you have a problem.

 

[glynndah]

 

[sr71plt]

I think I write more casually--and in writing erotica, with more sexual innuendo--than I speak.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

"You got me fucked up thinkin' I'mma follow you," is excellent dialogue. It paints a vivid portrait of the person speaking.

of course if no one in your story would say anything like that-- then you have a problem.

That's the problem, she doesn't speak like that. I do.

I do put some of myself into my characters. In all honesty, who doesn't put at least a little of themselves into the story? It normally comes out as sarcasm and attitude in my stories where there probably didn't need to be any of either. In this case, my speech patterns are coming through along with it.

I did get a comment on the FAWC story I submitted that my dialogue was "clunky." Maybe I should leave this in and see if it works. Maybe, since I tend to try very hard not to write how I talk my dialogue comes across as cardboard and unnatural.

And Glynndah, it couldn't have been any more confusing than what I just wrote.

 

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

Hi Red,

I used to kid that I was bilingual, I spoke sailor and broken English, so to some extent I understand where you are coming from. Most us us speak slang and we slur out words in everyday speech.


As an example I don't tell my wife "I am going to the store." I actually say. "Hey babe, I'm gonna go ta da store."


Part of the problem with writing for the masses is you have to make sure everyone who reads your work understands what you mean.

In your example: "You got me fucked up if you think I'm going to follow you." I think a couple of small changes would help clarify your meaning .

Maybe something like this.

"You got me fucked up, BUT if you think I'm going to follow you you're more fucked up than me."

Or

"You got me fucked up, if you think I'm going to follow you, you got your head in your ass."


I think both clarify your meaning and amplify your anger.


All of the above is assuming I understand what you really meant. (G)


I hope this helps a little.

Mike

 

[Subjugate_Me]

I use words like an instrument when I write. I go into another zone where my character lives and I inhabit that person, but the narrative does not entirely reflect the way I talk. When I write, it feels like I'm playing music and so there has to be a certain rhythm and flow to the structure, language and phrases. IRL, I swear like a trooper!

 

[slyc_willie]

Hi Red,

I used to kid that I was bilingual, I spoke sailor and broken English, so to some extent I understand where you are coming from. Most us us speak slang and we slur out words in everyday speech.


As an example I don't tell my wife "I am going to the store." I actually say. "Hey babe, I'm gonna go ta da store."


Part of the problem with writing for the masses is you have to make sure everyone who reads your work understands what you mean.

In your example: "You got me fucked up if you think I'm going to follow you." I think a couple of small changes would help clarify your meaning .

Maybe something like this.

"You got me fucked up, BUT if you think I'm going to follow you you're more fucked up than me."

Or

"You got me fucked up, if you think I'm going to follow you, you got your head in your ass."


I think both clarify your meaning and amplify your anger.


All of the above is assuming I understand what you really meant. (G)


I hope this helps a little.

Mike

I'd agree with this for the most part, but in the interest of emphasizing the casual nature of speech, I would substitute "going to" with "gonna." I do that a lot in my writing, and I think it's a good tip to the reader that the person speaking is doing so in a very casual, urban, or dialectic way.

Compare

"I'm going to the store. Do you need anything?"

With

"Gonna go to the store. Need anything?"

They're both very relaxed passages. But the second emphasizes a real sense of casual, day-to-day speech. At least to me. Make a few minor changes . . .

"Yo, man. Gonna hit da store. You want sumthin'?"

And there's that rough, incorrect, urban mode of speaking.

It reminds of the movie Under a Cherry Moon, in which Prince teases Mia Sara by writing out the words "Wrecka Stow" on a piece of paper and challenging her to tell him what it means. She's an uptight rich girl, while he's a poor, struggling musician. Eventually, she gives up in a huff, and Prince laughs while telling her, "the wrecka stow is where you goes to buy yo' records!"

 

[Noira]

For example, I actually just wrote this gem: "You got me fucked up if you think I'm going to follow you."

Now, if I had actually written that the way I say it out loud... "You got me fucked up thinkin' I'mma follow you." Oh yes, it gets worse.

I recommend a compromise. "You got me fucked up thinkin' I'll follow you."

I make an effort to try capture my personal idiosyncrasies when I type. Though I'd have probably said "I make an effort to get my, uh, personal idiosynchrawhateveryouknowwhatImean when I'm typing." That store example? I'd probably say "goin' to the store, y'want anything?"

But, I wouldn't have trouble writing that if that's how the character in question speaks. I consider the character and their personal background when I write their dialogue, as well as the communicative properties and clarity for the reader! Which is why I'm opposed to transcribing too much dialect, I think clarity is important. While the difference between gonna and going to isn't that far off, g'wan might not register at all. Y'know what I'm sayin'?



Make your choices based on the character. If you feel like you're having trouble capturing slang and dialect, maybe it's time you wrote a story featuring someone who speaks the way you'd LIKE to write!

My first draft narrative is often pretty personal dialect-y. Especially during NaNoWriMo sprints, I trend to frequent use of the word "just" which seems to be a local version of 'like' as a filler. It was just like that, you know, just the thing, just as she said. It's something I try iron out in further drafts though I don't mind keeping a more personal voice to narrative.

 

[sr71plt]

Can't say I've seen any rendering of the example sentence yet that I got a clear meaning out of.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My history made me almost fluent in Cracker, Jive, Mid Western English, and Trailer Trash. Cracker and Trailer Trash are distinct varieties of English. In my youth I knew Mafia, but didn't really speak it, because youngsters are expected to hear but not be heard, except to say YES SIR, NO SIR, ITS DONE, SIR. I almost forgot Redneck English.

 

[slyc_willie]

Can't say I've seen any rendering of the example sentence yet that I got a clear meaning out of.

My understanding of Red's offered line of dialogue is "I'm not some idiot willing to follow you just because, so you better give me a good reason to do so."

In the context of the dialogue, however, unless you've been around that kind of speech and understand it, the meaning becomes muddled. Might as well be a southern redneck talking to an ESL student from mainland China.

The thing is, even without the right frame of reference, that kind of unique dialogue can still work for those completely unfamiliar with it . . . as long as enough clues are placed in the story to provide a baseline for the dialect.

 

[D_Lynn]

I think it was Bruce Willis in some movie that involved explosions who said, "I speak two languages - English and bad English."

The Fifth Element

Do you read a lot of books? Not erotic short stories, comic books, or magazines, but full published novels? If not, it might help your writing. Many authors have stated that one of the key elements that helps them is that they read a lot of books. The reason I think it will help with your dialogue is that there seems to be something about reading (as opposed to watching movies) that shapes your inner dialogue, which is what will have to change for you.

For your immediate need, would it help to visualize a character you've seen in a movie, and then play that movie while you're writing?

Or, and this sounds really off-the-wall but might work, play classical music while writing. There is some research connecting classical music and language learning.

 

[oggbashan]

I think that writing dialogue as it would actually be spoken reads unnaturally - UNLESS you are writing a play or movie script that is going to be performed, not read.

If you were to record and then transcribe the way a normal conversation is really said - it wouldn't look right for a story's dialogue. Our ears edit out the hesitations, the ums and ers, the broken sentences, the repetitions and only follow the meaning of what people are saying.

I tend to be too precise in my dialogue. I do have fragments, interjections, people talking across each other. If I have the Word feature turned on it keeps flagging up incomplete sentences and fragments.

But there are very few hesitations or repetitions in dialogue in my stories. I try to imply the way the character speaks instead of writing as the character would actually speak in real life.

If I can believe the feedback and PCs, most people find my dialogue acceptable.

BUT - if they were to read it aloud, it would sound stilted and pedantic. I write my dialogue to be read, not to be spoken. There is a real difference.

 

[MrPezman]

well....

Write like I speak.

For whatever reason, I'll be in the groove of writing something and a sentence will come up that I write down. When I go back to read through what I wrote I always stop at that sentence and ask myself, "What the fuck were you thinking?"

For example, I actually just wrote this gem: "You got me fucked up if you think I'm going to follow you."

Now, if I had actually written that the way I say it out loud... "You got me fucked up thinkin' I'mma follow you." Oh yes, it gets worse.

Yeah. Because that's how I talk. I know this comes from the years I spent as a correctional officer. You don't exactly learn good speaking habits when you work in a prison. But it has leached into my writing. The sad part is I'm not entirely sure how to convey the amount of emotion that goes into that sentence without putting it just how I wrote it. But it flies in the face of the style of the rest of the story.

Does anybody else have this issue? Do you write like you speak? I'm talking first draft, balls to the wall writing before you have a chance to go back and pretty up the story for public consumption.

I think it was Bruce Willis in some movie that involved explosions who said, "I speak two languages - English and bad English." Well, I can add another one to that. I speak prison English.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Unfortunately, the dialogue between characters in my stories do not contain things I would normally say, but instead things I would like to be able to say, if my wit was sharp enough to come up with it on the spur of the moment. I was never a CO, just a DO in Clovis, NM, but I get what you mean about prison English. I usually ended up asking a lot of questions that went like, "Maybe you could run that by me again in real english?" Fortunately, none of that extended into my writing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OK. Its too difficult to make vernacular intelligent, or even normal conversation intelligent, because too many other things complete the context of the exchange. So the wise writer extracts the flavor and adds it to her coherent, cohesive, logical, intelligible presentation. All the reader wants is the flavor NOT a fucking reenactment of real life. Writers who are too literal create a WTF experience for the reader.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

Hmmm... Lots of great responses and advice, but I'm getting the impression that no one actually knows what the phrase "you got me fucked up" means. Except Prezman. And possibly Pilot if I'm reading his post wrong and he gets the original but no one is really clarifying it.

In prison vernacular, "you got me fucked up" basically means your judgement/impression of the person is wrong. In most cases, it is used when you ask someone to do something that will either break the law or push their comfort zone too far out of the norm.

Inmate: "Hey, boss lady, why don't you bring me some cigarettes."
Corrections Officer: "You got me fucked up if you think I'd do that."

Random Dude: "Hey, baby, why don't we take this party somewhere else?"
Random Chick: "You got me fucked up."
Random Dude who knows what she just said: "Don't have to be so harsh, bitch."
Random Clueless Dude after leaving to go back to his buddies: "WTF just happened?"

This is all strong evidence that this amount of vernacular is going to be lost on the average reader.

 

[sr71plt]

I meant that it doesn't mean a thing to me--no matter how anyone here has rewritten it. And if the reader just can't get any meaning out of it . . .

 

[oggbashan]

I meant that it doesn't mean a thing to me--no matter how anyone here has rewritten it. And if the reader just can't get any meaning out of it . . .

That is one of the real problems with writing for the internet.

Expressions that are meaningful to you can be completely unintelligible to a reader in Ulan Bator or Timbuktu - or even in another US State.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

So far, I've gotten two reactions from this thread:

1. You understood the vernacular and said it actually conveyed a very strong emotion (which I intended).

2. You didn't understand it and tried to suggest something different. The different suggestions ranged from adding on to the sentence to the point of redundancy to just changing the sentence outright and avoiding vernacular altogether (I'm going with this one).

The second reaction was the more prevalent. This sentence will more than likely be changed to something like, "Who the hell do you think you are? I ain't following you anywhere!"

That should get the point across, and it still has a more casual feel to it. Either way, the character gets the shit smacked out of her.

Thanks for all the really great feedback on the use of vernacular in writing and in what instances it works or doesn't. Thanks especially to oggbashan for that well written post on the differences between written and spoken dialogue.

 

[lovecraft68]

Hmm, see I can beat the write like I speak. I would have to as although my "street" is not as pardon the expression ghetto as yours, I do speak with as my wife says a distinct "street rat accent"

Sometimes I do let that flow when the proper character is around and in the right environment, but for other characters I simply can't.

I really started to note this issue when I began my circle series which features a group of mostly well to do people, so I had to make a a concentrated effort to have these people speak not only properly, but as people with high educations and in some cases an air of better than.

What I do is before I get to the dialogue I kick back and I envision the conversation. When I catch a "not for nuthin" I stop and say "No, they would not say that." and have them rephrase it in my head.

It sounds tedious, but I think I've gotten to the point where it is coming more naturally to me.

Focusing on some conversations in books and movies can help as well.

What's funny is when I started moving my way up in my company I started trying to speak better an even did a stint in toastmasters to learn hos to speak in front of people.

I can be fairly eloquent, but if I have a bit to drink or start getting pissed off I instantly default back to my south Providence days and the wife, will always make sure to point out "Your street is showing."

 

[sr71plt]

So far, I've gotten two reactions from this thread:

1. You understood the vernacular and said it actually conveyed a very strong emotion (which I intended).

2. You didn't understand it and tried to suggest something different. The different suggestions ranged from adding on to the sentence to the point of redundancy to just changing the sentence outright and avoiding vernacular altogether (I'm going with this one).

The second reaction was the more prevalent. This sentence will more than likely be changed to something like, "Who the hell do you think you are? I ain't following you anywhere!"

That should get the point across, and it still has a more casual feel to it. Either way, the character gets the shit smacked out of her.

Thanks for all the really great feedback on the use of vernacular in writing and in what instances it works or doesn't. Thanks especially to oggbashan for that well written post on the differences between written and spoken dialogue.

No, there was a third reaction, which was: I don't understand it so much I wouldn't know where to start in suggesting anything different to convey the meaning you were trying to convey.

 

[oggbashan]

Dialogue in action

This scene from the Globe Theatre's production of Much Ado About Nothing shows what can be done when two good actors interpret dialogue.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

No, there was a third reaction, which was: I don't understand it so much I wouldn't know where to start in suggesting anything different to convey the meaning you were trying to convey.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to word that so I just kind of mentally lumped it in on #2.

But I wasn't really looking for a way to reword the sentence so much as I was looking for advice on using vernacular in written dialogue. I feel I got a lot of good advice on the latter. Not-so-much on the former because of this third reaction.

Hmm, see I can beat the write like I speak. I would have to as although my "street" is not as pardon the expression ghetto as yours, I do speak with as my wife says a distinct "street rat accent"

Sometimes I do let that flow when the proper character is around and in the right environment, but for other characters I simply can't.

I really started to note this issue when I began my circle series which features a group of mostly well to do people, so I had to make a a concentrated effort to have these people speak not only properly, but as people with high educations and in some cases an air of better than.

What I do is before I get to the dialogue I kick back and I envision the conversation. When I catch a "not for nuthin" I stop and say "No, they would not say that." and have them rephrase it in my head.

It sounds tedious, but I think I've gotten to the point where it is coming more naturally to me.

Focusing on some conversations in books and movies can help as well.

What's funny is when I started moving my way up in my company I started trying to speak better an even did a stint in toastmasters to learn hos to speak in front of people.

I can be fairly eloquent, but if I have a bit to drink or start getting pissed off I instantly default back to my south Providence days and the wife, will always make sure to point out "Your street is showing."

"Street" sounds so much better than "prison."

The best part about working in the prison system was when I was assigned as the medical officer when I would work overtime on the day shift. Listening to the psychologists talk to the inmates in their Ph. D-speak only to have to turn around and rephrase it in prison-speak was priceless. Even better was when the MDs would come around. Watching them having to mentally change their ways of thinking in order to make their meanings known to people in entirely different socio-economic circles was hilarious.

Where the officers could easily go from "prison" to "free-world" mode - often in the same train of thought - the more "educated" staff members often couldn't make the transition. Though I think most of this was because, as correctional officers, we were constantly exposed to this language. The doctors (medical or psych) were only there twice a week at most.