I am sulking (this is a genuine complaint)

[Zhuk]

I have been posting poems on my thread 'Zhuk's Zhakk', to attract some constructive criticism so that I can improve upon them. And while doing that learn some more.

But (here is the complaint), except for Judo, Homer Pindar and _Land, nobody has come forward with advice or suggestions.

Till other poets take interest, I go and sit in my corner to sulk (sulking begins right now).

All those who are not interested can ignore this thread (I know what happens when you write this line - there is a live example right here)

 

[OT]

Sulking can be fun.
Complaining is OK (but is dangerously close to whining which us usually not OK)

When you are done sulking, I've a couple of suggestions/observations.

Rather than an open ended "feed me", try asking for specifics. Share your favorite and least favorite parts of your poems. Then ask for specific suggestions on how to improve the parts that you are not so pleased with, and ask if others agree with your favorites.

When someone offers public feed back, it'd be silly for a hundred others to chime in with "what she said". So if even one responded publicly, it may be safe to assume that it represents the sentiments of other (interested) readers.

Vote or offer feedback to others (often!). By identifying what you like/dislike in other's poetry, you get better at recognizing those features in your own poems. As a secondary benefit, the more you give, the more you get.

Sulking and complaining rarely works. (ask my boys how many times they got what they wanted when they stamped their foot and sulked) -- hint: The answer is less than 1.

(usually sulking wouldn't even get this much attention, but you caught me on a good night)

Be sure and let us know when you are done sulking.

 

[Zhuk]

hmmm...

OT,

I have a long memory and I am making a list

My List:

1. OT

Regarding commenting on poems of other people, I feel I am not competent enough to do that as yet. One or two of your suggestions do make some sense.

Sulking can be fun.
Complaining is OK (but is dangerously close to whining which us usually not OK)

When you are done sulking, I've a couple of suggestions/observations.

Rather than an open ended "feed me", try asking for specifics. Share your favorite and least favorite parts of your poems. Then ask for specific suggestions on how to improve the parts that you are not so pleased with, and ask if others agree with your favorites.

When someone offers public feed back, it'd be silly for a hundred others to chime in with "what she said". So if even one responded publicly, it may be safe to assume that it represents the sentiments of other (interested) readers.

Vote or offer feedback to others (often!). By identifying what you like/dislike in other's poetry, you get better at recognizing those features in your own poems. As a secondary benefit, the more you give, the more you get.

Sulking and complaining rarely works. (ask my boys how many times they got what they wanted when they stamped their foot and sulked) -- hint: The answer is less than 1.

(usually sulking wouldn't even get this much attention, but you caught me on a good night)

Be sure and let us know when you are done sulking.

 

[OT]

Poetry is just writing. Either you like what someone writes, or not. If you read, then you are competent to comment. (really! it's just that simple)

 

[Zhuk]

Simple

Obviously it is simple for you, but maybe not for me due to various reasons. Not that I disagree with you.

Poetry is just writing. Either you like what someone writes, or not. If you read, then you are competent to comment. (really! it's just that simple)

 

[HomerPindar]

What he said....

Sulking can be fun.
Complaining is OK (but is dangerously close to whining which us usually not OK)

When you are done sulking, I've a couple of suggestions/observations.

Rather than an open ended "feed me", try asking for specifics. Share your favorite and least favorite parts of your poems. Then ask for specific suggestions on how to improve the parts that you are not so pleased with, and ask if others agree with your favorites.

When someone offers public feed back, it'd be silly for a hundred others to chime in with "what she said". So if even one responded publicly, it may be safe to assume that it represents the sentiments of other (interested) readers.

Vote or offer feedback to others (often!). By identifying what you like/dislike in other's poetry, you get better at recognizing those features in your own poems. As a secondary benefit, the more you give, the more you get.

Sulking and complaining rarely works. (ask my boys how many times they got what they wanted when they stamped their foot and sulked) -- hint: The answer is less than 1.

(usually sulking wouldn't even get this much attention, but you caught me on a good night)

Be sure and let us know when you are done sulking.

...now you just knew someone had to do that, right?

HomerPindar

 

[Zhuk]

do what?

Someone had to do what HomerPindar? Do you want me to add you to my list too?

What he said....



...now you just knew someone had to do that, right?

HomerPindar

 

[Rybka]

...Second the emotion

What they said and raise you a whine.

Regards,                       Rybka

 

[Zhuk]

Re: ...Second the emotion

Wonderful! The list was looking empty

My list (revised)

1. OT
2. Rybka

What they said and raise you a whine.

Regards,                       Rybka

 

[beths-virtue]

zhuk, first of all, i have been reading your work , and watching it, but, you already have good solid critique on there, and theres really no need for me to type in there, yeah i agree, or , just what i was thinking, type things, other than to let you know i have read it , which , is , as ot said , dangerously close to stroking egoes, for no particular reason

the flip side to the coin is, often times, _land will read something to me , and read his response, and , sometimes, he even puts in my suggestions, re worded from his point of view
gee, a 2 fer one

B

 

[Zhuk]

'Two in One' or 'One in Two'

Beths-Virtue,

Your reading my work does not help me at all. I am not here for getting scores or making the top lists. My sole aim is to improve with the help of better and more experienced poets. I NEED advice and suggestions.

...and now without intending to, you have stroked my ego...

Since you and _Land are together in some way or the other, I will add you to my other list:

My other list

1. Judo
2. HomerPindar
3. _Land
4. Beths-Virtue

zhuk, first of all, i have been reading your work , and watching it, but, you already have good solid critique on there, and theres really no need for me to type in there, yeah i agree, or , just what i was thinking, type things, other than to let you know i have read it , which , is , as ot said , dangerously close to stroking egoes, for no particular reason

the flip side to the coin is, often times, _land will read something to me , and read his response, and , sometimes, he even puts in my suggestions, re worded from his point of view
gee, a 2 fer one

B

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: 'Two in One' or 'One in Two'

Beths-Virtue,

Your reading my work does not help me at all. I am not here for getting scores or making the top lists. My sole aim is to improve with the help of better and more experienced poets. I NEED advice and suggestions.

...and now without intending to, you have stroked my ego...

Since you and _Land are together in some way or the other, I will add you to my other list:

My other list

1. Judo
2. HomerPindar
3. _Land
4. Beths-Virtue

*runs in when Zhuk is not looking...like now..and adds more names to all the lists he has lying around the place*

See, Angeline gives me suggestions telepathically, and WE loves telegrams, and smithpeter has this thing about smoke signals (bummer it's raining SP) and Rybka sneaks his in - honest, I havn't figured out how yet - and Karmadog just posts bills around my place till I get the message...

speaking of which, have you gotten the message yet...?

no?

ok, I'll spell it out. there's no way for me to cut off another poets influance once I've read that poet, and certain not if I've read more than one poem and their critiques, AND chatted with them and... get it? all these poets, and a bunch more, stand over my shoulder with every post, cause heck knows I've learned more about poetry from the bunch here than from any other source.

Second, I'd really like to see an apology to Beth here.. "don't care about reading your poems" PINHEAD....!! that's what its all about

Now, stop whining, or I'll put you on my list of people I don't respond to at Lit.


HomerPindar

 

[Zhuk]

HomerPindar's Threat

HomerPindar

hahahaha - had I known sulking was so much more fun than writing poetry I would have taken to it much earlier.

Regarding Beths-Virtue, I said "it didnt help me', I didnt say 'I dont care'. There is a significant difference. Plus I have added her to my 'other list' the one which you belong to! Therefore no apologies. But if she asks...I am not one to refuse a lady.

Now regarding telepathy and telekinetics and what not, I am still an unbeliever.

Regards

*runs in when Zhuk is not looking...like now..and adds more names to all the lists he has lying around the place*

See, Angeline gives me suggestions telepathically, and WE loves telegrams, and smithpeter has this thing about smoke signals (bummer it's raining SP) and Rybka sneaks his in - honest, I havn't figured out how yet - and Karmadog just posts bills around my place till I get the message...

speaking of which, have you gotten the message yet...?

no?

ok, I'll spell it out. there's no way for me to cut off another poets influance once I've read that poet, and certain not if I've read more than one poem and their critiques, AND chatted with them and... get it? all these poets, and a bunch more, stand over my shoulder with every post, cause heck knows I've learned more about poetry from the bunch here than from any other source.

Second, I'd really like to see an apology to Beth here.. "don't care about reading your poems" PINHEAD....!! that's what its all about

Now, stop whining, or I'll put you on my list of people I don't respond to at Lit.


HomerPindar

 

[beths-virtue]

zhuk, youre in trouble


OT , Rybka, stand in for _land, since hes still out of here....

thats it , i demand a public lashing for him, take him out to the woods , and pummel him soundly with a salt cod until he apologizes.....

now, what did he do wrong ?

 

[Zhuk]

Beths-Virtue please...

...whatever punishment I deserve you have to do it personally...

...I will apologise later after receiving it...

Zhuk

zhuk, youre in trouble


OT , Rybka, stand in for _land, since hes still out of here....

thats it , i demand a public lashing for him, take him out to the woods , and pummel him soundly with a salt cod until he apologizes.....

now, what did he do wrong ?

 

[beths-virtue]

Re: Beths-Virtue please...

...whatever punishment I deserve you have to do it personally...

...I will apologise later after receiving it...

Zhuk

yes, but , dont you think you should at least narrow down what you have supposedly allegedly done wrong, i mean , if its something bad , like, rhyming poetry , thats one thing, but if its something evil , like, i dont know, impersonating elvis, then , well, i would definately need extra cod....


, stuck here in Branson, where they roll up the sidewalks on sunday

 

[Zhuk]

ask HomerPindar!

Where is he by the way, after having put me in such a mess?

Zhuk

yes, but , dont you think you should at least narrow down what you have supposedly allegedly done wrong, i mean , if its something bad , like, rhyming poetry , thats one thing, but if its something evil , like, i dont know, impersonating elvis, then , well, i would definately need extra cod....


, stuck here in Branson, where they roll up the sidewalks on sunday

 

[Guest]

Congratulations Zhuk

 

[Zhuk]

Re: Congratulations Zhuk

Hello Indy_dark,

Well my friend you seem to have missed some important pointers. First was in the title "(this is a genuine complain)". There were some other when I described by complaint and my manner of sulking.

Anyway I dont consider myself to be either an artist or a poet. I am a student in the process of learning something new, and in this people who are more experienced, more skilled, they can always help with their feedback.

Regarding 'to beg for feedback', you show poor choice of words.

I dont post my poetry on Lit. and neither do I go and look at votes or voting patterns, they dont interest me. But I have to agree with you that poetry attracts a much smaller audience.

OK now something about me as a person, one I dont make friends easily and two I am very stubborn. Therefore there is no danger at all of my writing for a small circle of friends.

Remember school? When one wrote or did something and showed it to the teacher and she/he graded it, pointed out the mistakes and suggested improvements? I am at that stage as far as poetry is concerned, therefore I reserve my right to act like a school going kid.

You have discovered that you are an artist. No different than one with a brush. You create and yearn for someone to recognize the creation..such is the life of an artist. To beg for feedback shows immaturity not personally but maturity within the framework of artistic creation. If you must have that feedback to consider what you created viable or worthwhile it's a hint at your own dis-satisfaction. The day will come when you create for your own soul and only you can distinguish masterpiece from masturbation. Then others do not matter.

Beth.."something bad, like rhyming poetry"? Rhyme is simply another medium within poetry. It can be done well or poorly. Some say it stinks as impressionists despise still life. It is a matter of personal preference. Which stresses my point. Zhuk if Beth says it's trash..is it? Or is it merely outside of her realm? Surround yourself with a small circle of friends and you will write your friends poetry.

You are not alone. Look sometime at the voting on some poetry...handfulls of votes compared to volumes for stories. Such is the nature of poetry.

I lived in Springfield Beth. I miss the tranquility of an evening lake far from the lights of Branson.

 

[KillerMuffin]

An interesting dichotomy. You expect to be fed to your satisfaction, yet you refuse to give back. You demand--there is no requesting in this thread--that poets here take the time and effort to critique your work so that you can learn, but you steadfastly and very nastily refuse to do the same.

Yes, I'm familiar with that ridiculous excuse "I don't know enough to give a good critique". When you say that you're a liar, flat and simple.

You're a selfish bastard, zhuk. I certainly hope no one will feed you until you climb down off your high horse and start acting like an adult human being with consideration for others. Show some respect and gratitude.

By the way, whoopee do on your student analogy. That's another load of horse manure you're shoveling to excuse your atrocious behavior and vile selfishness.

Anyone with half of a brain interested in learning poetry knows that you must read poetry to learn poetry. And when you read poetry you must take it apart and analyze it. Figure out why it works and why it doesn't. Learning about meter and form doesn't come from outside instruction, it comes from the reader.

If you really wanted to learn to write poetry, you would start by critiquing poetry. Otherwise you're blowing smoke up your own ass with grand delusions of being some sort of student.

If that list you're creating is of people who will not give you feedback, add me to it. You're a waste of effort. On the rare times I give feedback, it's to people who have a serious desire to not only learn, but help others. You're just an asshole.

 

[HomerPindar]

Having already put you on a list of folks I don't reply to....

An interesting dichotomy. You expect to be fed to your satisfaction, yet you refuse to give back. You demand--there is no requesting in this thread--that poets here take the time and effort to critique your work so that you can learn, but you steadfastly and very nastily refuse to do the same.

Yes, I'm familiar with that ridiculous excuse "I don't know enough to give a good critique". When you say that you're a liar, flat and simple.

You're a selfish bastard, zhuk. I certainly hope no one will feed you until you climb down off your high horse and start acting like an adult human being with consideration for others. Show some respect and gratitude.

By the way, whoopee do on your student analogy. That's another load of horse manure you're shoveling to excuse your atrocious behavior and vile selfishness.

Anyone with half of a brain interested in learning poetry knows that you must read poetry to learn poetry. And when you read poetry you must take it apart and analyze it. Figure out why it works and why it doesn't. Learning about meter and form doesn't come from outside instruction, it comes from the reader.

If you really wanted to learn to write poetry, you would start by critiquing poetry. Otherwise you're blowing smoke up your own ass with grand delusions of being some sort of student.

If that list you're creating is of people who will not give you feedback, add me to it. You're a waste of effort. On the rare times I give feedback, it's to people who have a serious desire to not only learn, but help others. You're just an asshole.

..I say once again, what she said.

HomerPindar

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Zhuk--

We're a community. Ever since I first came here, seven months ago, I feel like I've grown as a person, as have my writtings, in quantity bus especially in quality. But here is the thing. I didn't sit around waiting for those much needed advices to come my way. I realized early on that if I wanted people to read my work and give me feedback, I would have to go look for them. I would have to give my own honest opinions, no matter how little I knew about poetry, about whatever poems caught my attention, and posting my own poems in already active threads, if I wanted those poets I admired to notice me.

I realized that starting threads only to ask for feedback was pointless unless it was done sporadically. I know now that if I start a thread asking for feedback, I will get it. Good, constructive, and abundant. But that is a right I earned.

I like your poetry. Yet I never posted a single comment in your Zhuk's Zhakk. I also never commented on Land's Mind, and he knows I don't have nothing against him. But I do dislike these threads where poets post poem after poem of their own and expect others to come in and read and give feedback. Not only do I dislike them, but I find myself a bit intimidated by them. I'm sure others may feel like this. I feel like if I go there and offer a suggestion on one poem, I also should do it for all the others. The quality of the feedback for each poem would then be far worse. Of course that if you did post one single poem per thread asking for feedback, you'll realize just how much you're asking compared to what you're giving in return.

 

[Zhuk]

Killer Muffin & HomerPindar

Such a large number of posts and yet you do not feel confident about your ability to forcefully communicate with people without use of words like, 'bastard', 'horse manure', 'ass', 'asshole', etc. Tells me a lot about you. Just as a contrast, I have never used such words ever, except for quoting something like you.

Now for glaring lies in you reply. I have not posted any poem on this thread, that I did on Zhuk's Zhak, and in that thread I 'requested' for feedback, suggestions and advice. There was no 'demand' as suggested by you.

Now about my excuse that I dont know enough - I had never read poetry either in english or Hindi till about 6 or 7 months back. I have never been a student of literature. Being a graduate engineer and a diploma holder in computer programming, I have been mostly concerned with science and technology. When I say I dont know enough to critique it is the truth. I am even today not aware of most of the forms, or techinical terms like meter.

Regarding gratitude, again you are showing your extreme ignorance. All feedbacks I have received in my thread, whether praise or criticism, have been replied by a 'genuine' thank you.

Regarding my being a student, I repeat for your benefit, I am a student of poetry, a student who has just started. And I have a very long way to go. Quantity does not make for quality.

Regarding selfishness - Gandhi ji said "every human being is selfish, the greater men, the Givers even more so"!

Grand delusions of being a student?????? I didnt know one could have grand delusions for being a student! Thank you for educating me.

The lists - even a stupid person would have known that the whole list thing was meant to be a joke. The fact that you took this seriously tells me something more about you.

Your whole post shows, rather advertises your ignorance about facts and as I mentioned above, you cant get your message across without swearing and using uncivil language.

You are like one of those seven blind men who each got to touch one part of an elephant to understand what is an elephant. From the looks of it, and the way you have used one particular part of body repeatedly, you were unlucky and got to feel a very nasty part of the elephant. And just by touching 'that' you now think you know what is an elephant.

This whole thread was meant as a half serious exercise meant for fun, I thank you both for turning it into what it is now. God, save us from closed minds.

An interesting dichotomy. You expect to be fed to your satisfaction, yet you refuse to give back. You demand--there is no requesting in this thread--that poets here take the time and effort to critique your work so that you can learn, but you steadfastly and very nastily refuse to do the same.

Yes, I'm familiar with that ridiculous excuse "I don't know enough to give a good critique". When you say that you're a liar, flat and simple.

You're a selfish bastard, zhuk. I certainly hope no one will feed you until you climb down off your high horse and start acting like an adult human being with consideration for others. Show some respect and gratitude.

By the way, whoopee do on your student analogy. That's another load of horse manure you're shoveling to excuse your atrocious behavior and vile selfishness.

Anyone with half of a brain interested in learning poetry knows that you must read poetry to learn poetry. And when you read poetry you must take it apart and analyze it. Figure out why it works and why it doesn't. Learning about meter and form doesn't come from outside instruction, it comes from the reader.

If you really wanted to learn to write poetry, you would start by critiquing poetry. Otherwise you're blowing smoke up your own ass with grand delusions of being some sort of student.

If that list you're creating is of people who will not give you feedback, add me to it. You're a waste of effort. On the rare times I give feedback, it's to people who have a serious desire to not only learn, but help others. You're just an asshole.

 

[Zhuk]

Lauren.Hynde,

Let me first thank you for saying that you like my poetry. And I will like to show my appreciation for your post, because this is how civilised people communicate with each other.

Now on to some of the points you have made:

There are certain things on which different people from different backgrounds have different opinions. I sort of consider the fact that if I want a feedback from a certain poet, then I should first critique his/her poetry first, as a case of 'I scratched your back, now you scratch mine'. This becomes even more important for me, if I feel I dont have anything intelligent or helpful to say to that poet. I am a very knowledgeable person about lot many things (poetry not being one of them), and I value my own opinion and I offer it when I have something worthwhile to say. Commenting on a poem just to get a feedback in return is not my style. Again it is a matter of personal choice and I respect yours.

You have not commented on my and Land's thread, again that is your decision I respect that and I am sure so does Land.

Regarding the fact that you feel you have to comment on each and every poem on my thread, here the same thing crops up - I would think you will only comment on that poem where you can offer solid criticism or helpful suggestion. There is no need to be intimidated by anything, and one should comment where one can.

I can only and I will only offer something, or comment on something when I feel I can add to the discussion or say something worthwhile.

I have commented on a thread by Angeline regarding getting published, I felt I had something worthwhile to say from personal experience, I did, and it was appreciated by Angeline. That was my contribution where I could make it.

I commented on Land's challenge thread where Angeline wrote a poem in that difficult French form. Again I felt I had something to say that would be helpful, I did, and it was appreciated both by Angeline and OT.

I will only comment when I feel I have something to say and not otherwise. I am not intimidated by people who have large number of posts or who think they can browbeat others by using uncivil language. This is me, this is how I feel and live and this is how it is going to be.

I respect you Lauren.Hynde for what you are, and for your honest opinion in this post, and I want others to take me as I am.

Zhuk--

We're a community. Ever since I first came here, seven months ago, I feel like I've grown as a person, as have my writtings, in quantity bus especially in quality. But here is the thing. I didn't sit around waiting for those much needed advices to come my way. I realized early on that if I wanted people to read my work and give me feedback, I would have to go look for them. I would have to give my own honest opinions, no matter how little I knew about poetry, about whatever poems caught my attention, and posting my own poems in already active threads, if I wanted those poets I admired to notice me.

I realized that starting threads only to ask for feedback was pointless unless it was done sporadically. I know now that if I start a thread asking for feedback, I will get it. Good, constructive, and abundant. But that is a right I earned.

I like your poetry. Yet I never posted a single comment in your Zhuk's Zhakk. I also never commented on Land's Mind, and he knows I don't have nothing against him. But I do dislike these threads where poets post poem after poem of their own and expect others to come in and read and give feedback. Not only do I dislike them, but I find myself a bit intimidated by them. I'm sure others may feel like this. I feel like if I go there and offer a suggestion on one poem, I also should do it for all the others. The quality of the feedback for each poem would then be far worse. Of course that if you did post one single poem per thread asking for feedback, you'll realize just how much you're asking compared to what you're giving in return.

 

[HomerPindar]

Hey Lauren... was wondering, after reading this, and already quoting KM, on how you regard the difference between your two post. both, IMnsHO (In My not so Humble Opinion for those who might not know my short hand ) say similiar things. Granted, one may argue that you're being more ... diplomatic, shall we say? But, I do think the gist remains much the same.

Case in point, I have posted poems here. And I love the fact that folks have enjoyed them, and have told me such. Yet, I don't recall a time where folks have torn one apart, examined one, or edited one of my poems in great detail. Gee, does that make me perfect? Gawds, I hope not....

Perhaps I'm overlooking something...let me check....

Zhuk--

We're a community. Ever since I first came here, seven months ago, I feel like I've grown as a person, as have my writtings, in quantity bus especially in quality. But here is the thing. I didn't sit around waiting for those much needed advices to come my way. I realized early on that if I wanted people to read my work and give me feedback, I would have to go look for them. I would have to give my own honest opinions, no matter how little I knew about poetry, about whatever poems caught my attention, and posting my own poems in already active threads, if I wanted those poets I admired to notice me.

I realized that starting threads only to ask for feedback was pointless unless it was done sporadically. I know now that if I start a thread asking for feedback, I will get it. Good, constructive, and abundant. But that is a right I earned.

I like your poetry. Yet I never posted a single comment in your Zhuk's Zhakk. I also never commented on Land's Mind, and he knows I don't have nothing against him. But I do dislike these threads where poets post poem after poem of their own and expect others to come in and read and give feedback. Not only do I dislike them, but I find myself a bit intimidated by them. I'm sure others may feel like this. I feel like if I go there and offer a suggestion on one poem, I also should do it for all the others. The quality of the feedback for each poem would then be far worse. Of course that if you did post one single poem per thread asking for feedback, you'll realize just how much you're asking compared to what you're giving in return.

...Yep, sure enough, there it is. A community - a body of people living in the same place under the same laws. Laurel's laws, plus (I'd dare to add) this gem of most societies: You get what you give.

HomerPindar