Humiliation: why do you do it?

[catalina_francisco]

See...that's part of why I have such a hard time connecting to the BDSM humiliation...I can only think of RL examples, and those are not fun.
Sort of the same reason I can't call girls names in bed (when asked to). I shut down, 'cause I've only ever used the term in a real life derogatory fashion, to insult all and sundry, so, using them on a person that I care enough for to be with...there's a disconnect there.

And this is where the answer lies I think. There are many things many of us do in the name of BDSM, which if taken out of that context into everyday vanilla life it would no longer be acceptable or a turn on, it is all about context. Fir example, someone may be turned on by their partner calling them names, degrading them, but if a stranger in the supermarket tried to do the same it is not acceptable, nor does it come from or end up in the same place. Same thing with pain...F can beat me black and blue and bleeding and it is an indescribable moment of pleasure (though that terms seems inadequate), but if a perfect stranger on the street dared to even make a move toward touching me they will get more than they bargained for, and it won't be a óh, yes, please hit me'. You can't transfer from BDSM to vanilla and vv and expect to feel the same...once you can move beyond that, you can explore a lot more freely, and often discover a lot of things about yourself in the process.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

It's like having someone snuggle down in the darkest corners of my mind, and understand me well enough to point a flashlight on the bits and pieces I haven't yet made peace with.

This. Brilliantly said.

Coupled with the fact that it works best when it touches things I'm genuinely ashamed of. It triggers the shame and then revels in the dirty undeniable fact that it's all true.

 

[where]

It's like having someone snuggle down in the darkest corners of my mind, and understand me well enough to point a flashlight on the bits and pieces I haven't yet made peace with.

With the right man, I've been known to beg and crave things no proper or intelligent lady would ever even think of... only to look up two seconds later going "Ohmygod I just admitted ___ out loud. And I meant it."

The funny thing is that I've yet to feel badly about the 'humiliation' I've dealt with in a D/s context, or have it affect my self-esteem. I've learned stuff about myself though. Sometimes I've learned there are things I want to do again; sometimes not.

I relate to the bolded bit, but for me starting to crave stuff which a few years back would have horrified me isn't humiliating, it's liberating. I find my BDSM experiences so far to be mind expanding and a form of liberation. maybe because I've spent so long repressing natural urges and desires, humiliation just seems alien.

 

[Netzach]

Can one boil down all BDSM to adrenaline? Seriously.

Yeah, one can. I think the overcomplication of it is really rampant. I do what I do because it helps me get off and it tickles parts of my brain and body that other things don't. Call it shallow, but there it is.

 

[teknight]

Yeah, one can. I think the overcomplication of it is really rampant. I do what I do because it helps me get off and it tickles parts of my brain and body that other things don't. Call it shallow, but there it is.

See, being on the outside looking in, I don't wanna make such utterly reductionistic claims...but I explain it all via biology/physiology/neurology....By no means do I do it 'cause I have a degree in Psychology.

 

[eastern sun]

Yeah, one can. I think the overcomplication of it is really rampant. I do what I do because it helps me get off and it tickles parts of my brain and body that other things don't. Call it shallow, but there it is.

My husband - "This is how I define my sexual proclivities and I don't look much deeper. I'm not self-reflective."

See, I am self-reflective, to a fault maybe. I agree that adrenaline is key. The complications set in when I start mixing issues of trust with notions of romantic love and spiritual growth.

My husband - "I guess."

 

[teknight]

My husband - "This is how I define my sexual proclivities and I don't look much deeper. I'm not self-reflective."

See, I am self-reflective, to a fault maybe. I agree that adrenaline is key. The complications set in when I start mixing issues of trust with notions of romantic love and spiritual growth.

My husband - "I guess."

What does that mean? I mean, you can't have love without trust...but, i don't think that's what you're saying.
Besides, how you perceive the adrenaline depends on the trust....doing dangerous stuff with a loved one=hot....same dangerous stuff by a stranger, results in the same adrenaline pumping (There isn't a fear adrenaline and a love adrenaline.)...

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

It's like having someone snuggle down in the darkest corners of my mind, and understand me well enough to point a flashlight on the bits and pieces I haven't yet made peace with.

With the right man, I've been known to beg and crave things no proper or intelligent lady would ever even think of... only to look up two seconds later going "Ohmygod I just admitted ___ out loud. And I meant it."

The funny thing is that I've yet to feel badly about the 'humiliation' I've dealt with in a D/s context, or have it affect my self-esteem. I've learned stuff about myself though. Sometimes I've learned there are things I want to do again; sometimes not.

And again, this pretty much nails it.

Having someone poking around in those corners also makes me realise that I'm not even in control of those parts, *they* are. It's rather a bit scary, and rather a bit hot as well. I could imagine the control rush is felt by them too.

The only effect it really has on my self esteem in the long run is to pick it up a bit. It can almost be 'well, all these horrid things were said/came out, yet you're still looking after me and caring about me anyway, so yeah, I'm pretty awesome.'

 

[voltigeur]

I find that having a part of me that is humiliated and ashamed of what is happening and the pure lust of the moment that is so strong I can't stop it, is the thrill of humiliation games.

The orgasms are so so intense. becomes very addicting. But a very fine line to walk.

 

[teknight]

I find that having a part of me that is humiliated and ashamed of what is happening and the pure lust of the moment that is so strong I can't stop it, is the thrill of humiliation games.

The orgasms are so so intense. becomes very addicting. But a very fine line to walk.

LOL.
Orgasms are addicting.
Thank you for your reply.

To the "corners of the mind" crowd- a request:
Could one of you give an example of one those dark corners? I realize I'm asking for a lot, but I think it would enlighten me.

Thank you either way. And thank you, everyone, for contributing. This is fascinating!!

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

LOL.
Orgasms are addicting.
Thank you for your reply.

To the "corners of the mind" crowd- a request:
Could one of you give an example of one those dark corners? I realize I'm asking for a lot, but I think it would enlighten me.

Thank you either way. And thank you, everyone, for contributing. This is fascinating!!

You know, it *is* hard to think of things outside of the moment, and then when you do think of them, often they'll seem ridiculous in the cold light of day.

Most of mine tend to stem from a theme... that I am an intelligent, evolved, worthy human being. Having that reduced down to a rather primal, 'I'll do anything to prove said worth and earn your attention even though I know you're just fucking with me' type feeling. Playing around with those feelings of being incapable, "worthless", pathetic etc can be powerful stuff.

 

[eastern sun]

LOL.
Orgasms are addicting.
Thank you for your reply.

To the "corners of the mind" crowd- a request:
Could one of you give an example of one those dark corners? I realize I'm asking for a lot, but I think it would enlighten me.

Thank you either way. And thank you, everyone, for contributing. This is fascinating!!

My greed. And grandiosity. For someone whose identity is built around selflessness and service, the hot air balloon pops pretty quickly when those two are played with.

We're all a mass of contradictions, so it's pretty easy to play on any of those qualities that don't match the outward persona, especially when someone (like me) is pretty invested in the maintenance of that persona.

 

[eastern sun]

What does that mean? I mean, you can't have love without trust...but, i don't think that's what you're saying.
Besides, how you perceive the adrenaline depends on the trust....doing dangerous stuff with a loved one=hot....same dangerous stuff by a stranger, results in the same adrenaline pumping (There isn't a fear adrenaline and a love adrenaline.)...

Watch out, this might get complicated.

The simple version is that some people merit trust, and others don't. If we just loved the people we could trust, wow, things would be simple.

But we don't. We often love people we can't trust. Or we discover that the person we loved and thought we could trust wasn't, in fact, trustworthy. Or we only trust the people we have come to love. Or we hope that our love will make someone trustworthy.

For some people (including me), sexual arousal can be triggered by a certain amount of fear, and once the arousal starts being saturated with ideas of "love," trust is generated where it might not be warranted. I have to be very careful when I'm choosing partners for that reason. Conversely, if I trust someone completely, I find I lose interest sexually over time.

So, the quality of adrenaline-fueled "romantic love" built on fantasy and illusion and a certain amount of fear can definitely overshadow whatever gauges we have that measure trustworthiness.

It's only over time that you discover who someone is. And who they will be.

Conversely, because my sexuality is steeped in adrenaline, I have also fallen "in love" in those moments when I have been confronted with dangerous situations with strangers. An example - once I was about to be robbed in my own store, my adrenaline spiked, I went into the same "state" I find myself in during certain sexual experiences, and we engaged in what I can only call a "loving exchange" which amounted to me giving this stranger an amount of money I chose with the promise that he would never return, before he had a chance to force it. You may think me crazy to say this, but we loved each other - he loved me because he didn't have to rob me; and I loved him because he didn't hurt me in any way whatsoever. We ended up wishing each other a merry christmas, even while he promised me I'd never see him again. And I never did. I still have very warm feelings towards him. Complicated, hunh?

Same adrenaline.

So what was I saying? That spinning yarns of love and spiritual growth (I haven't even begun explaining the whole experience of letting go into the space the adrenaline creates. . .) complicates what is a rather simple physical experience. But it's the nature of us humans to weave these tapestries, especially when it's cold outside and there's nothing else requiring our attention.

 

[eastern sun]

I was thinking about humiliation on the subway this morning. I've been exploring degradation recently in a manner I haven't before, and I've discovered things I didn't know.

Because I have had shaky self-esteem, and sexual experiences that I didn't fully consent to that I found very humiliating, I have shied away from extreme forms of degradation play in the past. I genuinely did not want to push those buttons.

And I always thought that consensual degradation was based in playing with those buttons.

What I've discovered recently is that the blend of degradation and desirability completely changes the nature of the experience.

For instance (a couple of more tame experiences I'm willing to share): When I was young, a guy I found very attractive got drunk, spit on me and ignored me during our rest of our first date. I hated it, because it expressed his complete and utter rejection of me. I was undesirable, and I internalized it.

In college, I lived with a guy for many years who explicitly expressed his disdain for me. Our best (and most honest) sexual experiences together were the times he pissed on me. Again, I felt fundamentally undesirable, and I internalized it.

When I was older, a guy took me out to lunch in a very expensive restaurant, behaved on the surface like a perfect gentleman, but a brittle and cruel misogyny lay at the foundation of every word and gesture. I went home in tears and cut off all my hair. (Weird, hunh?) Again, I felt fundamentally undesirable and detested, and I internalized it.

The difference in my current relationship lies in the experience of degradation with someone for whom the degradation heightens my desirability. In that context, my heightened desirability is so palpable, the degrading acts feed my own arousal, and changes their fundamental nature (which seems so obvious it hardly needs stating, right?).

But in order to get there, I had to pass through a more superficial stage in which every one of those old buttons were being pushed - the internalized feelings of being undesirable, disgusting, ugly, pathetic - and could only emerge, literally changed, by the continued experience that these very things that made me think I was all that negative self were in fact positive and desirable.

So, my discovery is fairly simple, but significant in my own psyche. It isn't about staying in the places those old buttons take me to. Being in a place where I feel undesirable and pathetic is not at all what my friend is looking for. And I am very grateful for his ability to move me through it with relative ease and comfort. (and that relative is most definitely relative . . .)

Anyway, I'm just throwing it into the pot, because I always thought degradation played into the more wounded aspects of self - and didn't realize how comforting and genuinely warm and (I was going to say "fuzzy" but will instead say) "wet" it really can be.