How to NOT "top from the bottom" but ask for more?

[slvjenn]

OK, I've been wanting to ask this for a while now, but I hate to start threads since I don't post here often.

I guess a bit of backround is in order.

I love my boyfriend. I'd love him even if he wouldn't dominate me.

That being said, I want him to dominate me more often, for longer periods of time and further/deeper/harder (not sure how to say it).

He's great, he really is. He had never been involved in BDSM before he met me, and thankfully he likes it. The only problem is that I like it MUCH more. If I had my choice I'd submit to him NEARLY full time. I'd want some breaks, but for the most part I'd rather him be Master.

So the basic question is, how do I ask him, or get him to do this? I don't feel totally right in asking for more outright. I don't want to tell him what to have/make me do, it just wouldn't be the same.

I also want him to touch on some of my kinks more often. He's fine with the bondage, and some other things, but the one kink that he misses is the humiliation. I crave that a lot and either he is afraid, doesn't know how, or just isn't willing to go further with it than he already has.

Again, I guess I want/need to guide him more into the direction I want to go, and I do suggest things outside of the bedroom. It just seems as if we have hit a wall.

I'm just seeking advice on how to do this without controlling things. How can I get him to take me where I want to go without being the one in control?

Guess I'm starting to repeat and ramble. Advice appreciated.

 

[Pure]

There've been some threads on this. But my purely personal opinion is that you can engineer all manner of kink, but you can't engineer your own domination by someone. Now you can leave ds stories, pictures, website addresses, etc. lying around and maybe you'll spark interest, or increased interest.

It's a bit like the problem of training a child (or partner) to be more assertive (with you) and to 'stand up' to you. In general a child learns that by getting some distance, experience in other settings, confidence in dealing with others etc.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Asking

In my case, I have times when my subs are allowed to discuss concerns and requests.

They also know that I may not grant a request, and that is part of the thrill for them I think.

However, I hardly ever grant a request when they ask for it. I make them wait until I decide the time is right.

I also have times when we just hang out as people and discussions take place that give me insight on what they are thinking.

I also revise their checklists, and we discuss them cause the strength of their desire for certain BDSM activities gives a clear indication of what they would like to esperience more often.

I do not know if this helps you.

Eb

 

[slvjenn]

Re: Asking

However, I hardly ever grant a request when they ask for it. I make them wait until I decide the time is right.

Eb

Well I don't feel comfortable asking for anything outright. Maybe that is part of my problem....

In anycase, what do you mean by "the time is right"

Do you mean just when they aren't expecting it or when you/they are ready?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Asking

Well I don't feel comfortable asking for anything outright. Maybe that is part of my problem....

In anycase, what do you mean by "the time is right"

Do you mean just when they aren't expecting it or when you/they are ready?

The dynamics between Femdoms and malesubs is different.

When the time is right means when I decide to do something or when I decide not to do something.

Part of My exertion of control is not giving in to expectations. They can hope, but I am not compelled to allow what they want and they know it.

It is the uncertainty of getting or not getting a kink satisfied that keeps boredom away.

 

[MissTaken]

slvjenn,

Have you considered or have you attended any local munches?

Perhaps, making real life freinds in the lifestyle will give him some idea of the potential dynamics that exist.

He may come home from a munch or discussion and say, "I noticed this, what do you think?"

I do understand, there are times it is difficult to express your wants without feeling as though you are taking control in doing so.

Exposure and education is my best advice to you.

 

[lark sparrow]

OK, I've been wanting to ask this for a while now, but I hate to start threads since I don't post here often.

I guess a bit of backround is in order.

I love my boyfriend. I'd love him even if he wouldn't dominate me.

That being said, I want him to dominate me more often, for longer periods of time and further/deeper/harder (not sure how to say it).

He's great, he really is. He had never been involved in BDSM before he met me, and thankfully he likes it. The only problem is that I like it MUCH more. If I had my choice I'd submit to him NEARLY full time. I'd want some breaks, but for the most part I'd rather him be Master.

So the basic question is, how do I ask him, or get him to do this? I don't feel totally right in asking for more outright. I don't want to tell him what to have/make me do, it just wouldn't be the same.

I also want him to touch on some of my kinks more often. He's fine with the bondage, and some other things, but the one kink that he misses is the humiliation. I crave that a lot and either he is afraid, doesn't know how, or just isn't willing to go further with it than he already has.

Again, I guess I want/need to guide him more into the direction I want to go, and I do suggest things outside of the bedroom. It just seems as if we have hit a wall.

I'm just seeking advice on how to do this without controlling things. How can I get him to take me where I want to go without being the one in control?

Guess I'm starting to repeat and ramble. Advice appreciated.

I may be in the minority here but, I don't see what would be wrong with telling him much of what you have said above, directly. You may share interests that neither of you are talking about with one another.

Certainly there are ways to attempt to top from the bottom, but, in my experience being open and honest with my Dominant is the best way to allow Her access and control to me as a whole, and stay away from trying to manipulate Her.

I understand that he is new to domination, but if he has the desire/need within himself he's probably not going to be a pushover to your desires and directions - if not, then you may have to reconcile that he is not interested in being a fulltime Master to you at this time, but enjoys and is willing to explore some of your D/s desires with you as your lover.

I would encourage you to talk to him openly - you already have the groundwork for the discussion in your post. I know you have said that makes you uncomfortable, but mutual communication is necessary for growth in most any relationship, D/s or not. Good luck, however you decide to handle your desires/needs.

 

[slvjenn]

Thanks for the replies.

I think, that especially with the humiliation we have a huge difference in where we want to and are willing to go.

As for private humiliation, he does ok. Not as much as I'd like him to do, my fantasies are much darker than he's delivered so far, but he has come pretty far.

He is however, unwilling/unable to humiliate me in public AT ALL. Not even a crude remark. I think he tried once or twice, but I also think that he ended up being more embarassed FOR me than I actually was.

I'd REALLY be happy if he just told a friend about a sexual encounter of ours while I was within earshot..or..called me over to him using a "bad" word. Even if he did it with a joking tone as to not offend anyone else too much..

I see a lot of threads about pushing submissive's limits. Have any of you seen any (in any forum/newsgroup/etc) about a way to push a dominant's limits?

Again, I do not want to take control, so asking (pleading?) outside of the D/s realm is all I can think of. Specific ideas would be wonderful.

Thanks

 

[Xodus]

Talk to him.
I encourage my wife and other subs to let me know when I am doing too little... and when I am going too far
Of course, this doesn't mean I will do what they ask but it gives me a much better idea of what they need.
To me a Dom's job is to fulfill his sub's needs.

Edit: I really think the sub has more control than they know or realize, anyway.
The Dom deals out the pleasure along with the pain. The Dom is the giver, the sub is the taker.
It gives the Dom pleasure to give the sub pleasure.

 

[MissTaken]

What about bringing him here?

He could use the forum as a tool and get to know some of us.

Perhaps, eventually feel freer about discussing issues openly with you.

Yes, I have to agree, that open communication is a must. Finding the right words can be tough.

What about setting aside a time that is specifically for the two fo you to talk about D/s. "Honey, we have been doing this for a bit, let's have an open conversation and see where we are at."

Or something like that.....

Good Luck

 

[Pure]

Hi slvjenn,

you said,

I see a lot of threads about pushing submissive's limits. Have any of you seen any (in any forum/newsgroup/etc) about a way to push a dominant's limits?

Again, I do not want to take control, so asking (pleading?) outside of the D/s realm is all I can think of. Specific ideas would be wonderful.

I can't agree wholly with the approach of some other esteemed contributors. On the 'being open about wants'; yes, but only as Eb indicated (to allow the dom/me to choose, knowing the strengths, weaknesses, and tastes of the sub); _not_ in the manner of 'how can I get them satisfied the way _I_ want.'

This is not to say there's anything wrong with getting what you want.

Let me use a couple examples:

1)In a baseball game the batter tells what sort of pitch he'd like, and the pitcher is given as many pitches as necessary to meet the batter's request and wants so he gets a good hit.

2)In a chess game, if I find myself apparently checkmated, I allow myself to move the king, twice in the manner of a knight , to escape. My opponent consents to this.

3)In a family, the parents work, but the teens, as they want, make all the decisions as to spending money; give the parents an allowance for 'personal items', and see that they are in bed by 10pm so that the parties won't be interfered with.

Now there's nothing 'wrong' with any of these scenes. They might suit the persons. Indeed, some people, have you noticed, teach themselves and friends a cardgame and play it 'wrong' for years before they encounter someone who's actually played in standard forms.

But we say, the game in 1) isn't exactly baseball.
In 2) it's not really a chess game.

3) is at least a highly unconventional family by all but Beverly Hills norms.

Likewise in a relationship, the one with the 'dom/me' hat might, every night, rub the one-with-the-sub-hat's aching feet, and in the morning bring the 'sub' poached eggs in bed. And do the grocery shopping according the the 'sub's list, and receive a good spanking by the sub if any item is ignored.

Fun for alll, perhaps; let anyone so inclined 'go for it'!

But not exactly what's ordinarily understood to be the game of 'dominance' or 'submission'.

Just my out-of-step rambling thoughts and purely personal 'take' on the situation as you've described. But, Enjoy!

 

[slvjenn]

Pure, since I'm an avid baseball fan (yankees) i'll use your baseball analogy...


I'm in no way saying that I want to call all the pitches myself as the batter. That would be silly. What I am saying however is this.

While up to bat I'd like to get at least a few strikes. Something to hit. Right now I may be getting to first via walks, however pitches in the dirt isn't what I need. I'd rather fly out and at least have SOMETHING over the plate.

The way I read your post, you're making it sound like I want what I want all the time and that is all. That is far from the case.

Maybe I'm warped, but to me (tho nice, and fun and all that) bondage itself isn't submissive. MAYBE allowing yourself to be bound is, but once I'm there, I no longer feel as tho I am submitting.

I would "get off on" being mentaly bound much more. Being told to hold onto the bedposts (for example) and not let go. There not being anything forcing me to hold them, it would take concentration to hold them.

I guess for me, the actual act of doing something doesn't feel all that submissive. It's the instant that my brain clicks. I really am having a hard time describing this...

Take a simple order for an example. Kneeling.

Kneeling isn't submissive per se. I kneel as I sit on the couch and watch TV all the time. Some might call it sitting on thier legs. The submissive act "to me" is the instant that you do it, ONLY because you're told to do it.

Something silly that maybe even non submissive people will understand....

If someone tells you to touch your nose, there is no big deal in doing so. Now, you're told to rub it, still no big deal (tho maybe you feel a bit silly). Now, you're told to moan as you rub it, to cry out as if in extacy (sp?). Now you have to resolve in your head that you're going to do that. Not because you feel a desire to moan, but because you are being told to do it. Once you do it, that instant is gone, the instant that the mental decision was made to do something only because it was requested. Now if you are told to continue to moan, the constant decison to do so is being made.

Does that make sense to anyone? Am I that far out there?

I could go on but I think this is a bit off of my original question. I guess the original question was answered and I guess past talking to him I'm up shit's creek. It would be a lot easier to explain if I was into pain and could just say that he was causing this much pain and I need THIS much to really be satisfied with it.

Oh well...I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the person I love can't quite do what I'd like him to. If I was vanilla maybe it would be the same way for wishing he made more money or had a bigger tool or something. <shrug>

 

[MissTaken]

Seriously, slvjen.

Does he go on the internet?
There are websites for Doms, there is plenty of reading that you can leave lying around.

You could even purchase a book that you could read to him at bedtime that gives examples of pain used as pleasure.

Depending on your tastes, the basics might be "The Story of O" or Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty Trilogy.

Reading at bedtime is an intimate act I have always enjoyed, vanilla or not. But reading a hot story at bedtime opens the doors for discussion. You would probably find some scenes distasteful and get a chuckle as would he. Then other scenes may turn you both on or turn you on so that you can say so.

I sense your frustration and hope that you can look at who you are and who he is and formulate a plan. The process may and well should be gradual, but it isn't insurmountable.

If he loves you, at soem point, he may give on this. I dont' hear you saying he won't consider more. I hear you saying he doesn't know.

Good Luck!

 

[slvjenn]

oh...as for bringing him here...he knows of this place and i'm pretty sure he has his own account. I know he's voted on my stories for me but I think on the boards he might just look at the pics

As for talking to him...yesterday was SUPPOSED to be and usually is OUR day...but with the NFL playoffs he went out with friends to watch them. Sunday (today) again, football...maybe things will improve once the season is over...the sooner the better if you ask me.

 

[zipman]

Talk to him.
I encourage my wife and other subs to let me know when I am doing too little... and when I am going too far
Of course, this doesn't mean I will do what they ask but it gives me a much better idea of what they need.
To me a Dom's job is to fulfill his sub's needs.

Edit: I really think the sub has more control than they know or realize, anyway.
The Dom deals out the pleasure along with the pain. The Dom is the giver, the sub is the taker.
It gives the Dom pleasure to give the sub pleasure.

While I agree that talking to him is the best way, I cannot agree with the rest of this post, especially the line about "a Dom's job is to fulfill his sub's needs." I think a Dom's job is to find a sub that will obey and serve him according to his desires that he has communicated.

As for communication, I think it is very important for a sub to be able to communicate their desires, as long as it does not occur "during a scene." However, it is the Dom's decision (100%) as to whether or not to do those things. A sub may indicate a preference, but that is the limit to how much input they have over what occurs.

 

[Pure]

Hi slvjenn,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts; mostly they make sense to me. I'll respond inside your text, below, marking my stuff **


Pure, since I'm an avid baseball fan (yankees) i'll use your baseball analogy...


I'm in no way saying that I want to call all the pitches myself as the batter. That would be silly. What I am saying however is this.

While up to bat I'd like to get at least a few strikes. Something to hit. Right now I may be getting to first via walks, however pitches in the dirt isn't what I need. I'd rather fly out and at least have SOMETHING over the plate.

**We're getting really into the analogy, but my point in my example was that if some alleged version of baseball has the batter dictating the pitches, it ain't baseball (though it might be fun). Baseball opposes the batter's and pitcher's efforts, else it's more like 'batting practice'.

**Taking your example, I do see the problem of a bad or slack pitcher. One who pitches into the dirt. A batter can certainly shout 'Get a new pitcher', or 'shape up,' but in another sense, he's supposed to accept 'balls' and walk. A batter who controls isn't really a batter:

Consider if the batter could say "Get a new pitcher" and that happens, and the new pitcher comes and strikes out the batter.

Surely the batter's coach might say, 'keep your mouth shut; *use* the incompetence of the pitcher, to your and the team's advantage.'


The way I read your post, you're making it sound like I want what I want all the time and that is all. That is far from the case.

**I didn't mean to suggest 'all the time'. But attempting to 'set' even part of the alleged dom's agenda is not the sub's role as sub. Of course, along the lines I already said, a person styling himself a sub can give a self-labelled dom a list of things to do. That's what a paying 'sub' does. But such a paying 'sub', being in control, is not really subbing, but purchasing a service, like, say, a dental cleaning. (Again, this isn't an objection to people having fun any way they like.)


Maybe I'm warped, but to me (tho nice, and fun and all that) bondage itself isn't submissive. MAYBE allowing yourself to be bound is, but once I'm there, I no longer feel as tho I am submitting.

I would "get off on" being mentaly bound much more. Being told to hold onto the bedposts (for example) and not let go. There not being anything forcing me to hold them, it would take concentration to hold them.

I guess for me, the actual act of doing something doesn't feel all that submissive. It's the instant that my brain clicks. I really am having a hard time describing this...

Take a simple order for an example. Kneeling.

Kneeling isn't submissive per se. I kneel as I sit on the couch and watch TV all the time. Some might call it sitting on thier legs. The submissive act "to me" is the instant that you do it, ONLY because you're told to do it.

Something silly that maybe even non submissive people will understand....

If someone tells you to touch your nose, there is no big deal in doing so. Now, you're told to rub it, still no big deal (tho maybe you feel a bit silly). Now, you're told to moan as you rub it, to cry out as if in extacy (sp?). Now you have to resolve in your head that you're going to do that. Not because you feel a desire to moan, but because you are being told to do it. Once you do it, that instant is gone, the instant that the mental decision was made to do something only because it was requested. Now if you are told to continue to moan, the constant decison to do so is being made.

Does that make sense to anyone? Am I that far out there?


**I *think* I understand. Yes some acts are instantaneous, done and over quickly (touching your nose), and some are extended, stretch out over time (mowing the lawn). I think I agree if you're trying to say that generally the second, extended kind are better for extracting subjection. And better for creating the 'feeling' of subjection.

**Not sure how this relates to the original, unless you're saying you want your b.f. to ask for the extended kinds. It's the asking, not the extension, however, that poses a problem. If I *want* to mow the lawn and get the exercize and smell the grass, isn't it a bit odd to say to my 'dom'; 'please order me to mow and make sure I do it, as a way of subjecting me.' The issue is control. The proposed mower is in control, in the example. Same with yours; if you want to hold the bedposts and get humped, then saying,

"I'd like you to order me to hold the posts, hump me, and in that way assert your dominance "

makes no sense, though it might be a fun game. I'm not sure why there would be *any* feeling of subjection in this game.

Just my random aberrant and idiosyncratic 'take' on things.

Best,

 

[lark sparrow]

Perhaps You are running into a paradox here. If your boyfriend is not all that dominant aside from in the bedroom occasionally as fun, then you will not feel satisfied by asking him to do certain things as then he is carrying out your wishes. But if your boyfriend is dominant, and he simply isn't interested in the same things you are then you are not getting the dominance in a way that suits your basic needs. You have said that you love him regardless of his domination and find him wonderful, so perhaps now is not the time to push things, as you do not feel comfortable bringing them up directly.

There is a switch that needs to occur in the brain sometimes and it's a tough one. Between pleasing your Dominant as you imagine and dream about, and actually taking your Dominant and their wishes into consideration - pleasing them in ways that actually please them, not you. This is not to discount a submissive's basic needs, I believe these should be met, but only through surrendering to a Dom/me who meets your needs within their given interests and limits. Trying to change your Dominant's limits is going into territory that is pretty foreign to the basic concepts of D/s for most. Gently pushing your boyfriend into more kinky adventures may be an entirely different subject

 

[justgem]

.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Originally posted by zipman7
I think a Dom's job is to find a sub that will obey and serve him according to his desires that he has communicated.

If you change the him & he to her and and she, I totally agree.

As for communication, I think it is very important for a sub to be able to communicate their desires, as long as it does not occur "during a scene." However, it is the Dom's decision (100%) as to whether or not to do those things. A sub may indicate a preference, but that is the limit to how much input they have over what occurs.

Ditto.

Eb

 

[slvjenn]

Well,

I/We have not done a checklist, I may start looking into that. It sounds like a solid idea.

As for the stories, I write a lot of them. Most I do not post here for various reasons. Mostly because I find it difficult to finish any of them. It's been suggested to me by some friends who I allow to read them, that I can't finish them becuase I don't know where they end. Maybe that means I'm able to imagine a scene or something to a certain point, then at that point is where I no longer want control of it...whatever, I dunno.

Pure,

From what you post any submissive should find a dominant and then not be his/her submissive self, but a robot there only to please the master. S/He would have absolutly zero input as to what took place. Nevermind that the submisive loves scrambled and hates fried, if the dominant only serves up fried, tough shit. Maybe that would fly for some submissives, but not this one.

Does that make me fake in your eyes or something?

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. Sure the Dom is and should be in charge, but S/He should not ignore the wants/needs/desires of the submissive.

Thanks for the ideas everyone. I thank you all for the time you took to reply to this thread. I'm going to try some of your ideas. I think there is no football tonight, so I'm going to try to have a sit down with him during the time he'd normally be watching the game. I'll post any progress (or lack of).

 

[Ebonyfire]

Pure,

From what you post any submissive should find a dominant and then not be his/her submissive self, but a robot there only to please the master. S/He would have absolutly zero input as to what took place. Nevermind that the submisive loves scrambled and hates fried, if the dominant only serves up fried, tough shit. Maybe that would fly for some submissives, but not this one.

Does that make me fake in your eyes or something?

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. Sure the Dom is and should be in charge, but S/He should not ignore the wants/needs/desires of the submissive.

I am sure Pure can speak for himself. However, I feel compelled to comment here. I find that your comment is just about always made by female subs, not male subs.

I can never understand why femsubs assume that a Dom/me is ignoring their needs just because it is not apparent or instantly gratified.

I do not think you are being a fake, but I see that you are taking things personally. Don't.

It is the expectation of satisfaction that is denied. My subs do not expect to do any thing but serve me and they know how I operate so they know what is possible, probable, and negligible.

They enter into the relationship knowing who is in charge and what may or may not happen. They are willing to transfer their control to Me. They are not forced to do so.

It is the very reason they want to be dominated. The want to lie down the sword of decision & control.

What I see with the femsubs (and I realize there are exceptions), is that they do not negotiate properly in the beginning of their relationship. Many times this is because they are sexually drawn ot D/s and the end result, a kickass orgasm.

I do not have subs who are interested in the end result, whatever it is. They are interesting in the ongoing process of domination.

If the other works for you and your Dom, fine. There are many flavors to this lifestyle. To each his or her own.

But for me and my subs, it is about control. I have it.

Eb

 

[Pure]

Hi slvjenn,

Hey, these are just my opinions about what 'submission' or 'subjection' might involve. Every person with kink should play the games he or she enjoys!

S/He {sub} would have absolutly zero input as to what took place.

No _directive_ input, no. (I want this to happen; I'd like this to happen [expecting that this would cause the dom to do it]; Do this for me.)


Nevermind that the submisive loves scrambled and hates fried, if the dominant only serves up fried, tough shit.

You got it! Indeed, were you my sub (consenting to my regimen), the assignment would be to prepare fried eggs for us at breakfasttime, for 6 months and eat your portion without grumbling... to help reflect upon all that 'attitude,' that sense of the extreme importance of how your eggs are cooked.

Maybe that would fly for some submissives, but not this one.

Hey that's fine; the fellow in the 'dom' hat can take down a whole list of your favorite foods and how you like them, and whip up one to order for each meal. If that game entertains you, and he loves to please his Adored, great!

Does that make me fake in your eyes or something?

No not at all! Very real. Very spirited. Wonderful! As in my example, if the guy on the mound agrees to pitch very hittable balls, so the hitter can get good hits, he might be a very fine and 'real' person, having a great time with his friend, the batter. He's not 'fake,' --but he's not playing baseball (nor acting as a pitcher in a game of baseball).

Please remember there are no values or recommendations attached to these labels. Enjoy!