How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[CandiCame]

I would call it something that breaks my heart! I would be very careful attributing things to God that the bible does not. If you would like to be specific as to where you are finding these things in the bible I would be glad to discuss it further.

The bible totally says to threaten children with hell. I've already linked you a bunch of shit about it.

You KEEP doing this thing where I'll take something out of the bible and you just pretend it's not a thing. It is a thing. You don't have to believe it- but if THAT part of the bible isn't true- then none of is true. That's how that works.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Right now, people are being murdered by Christians in the name of your God.

Who? Christians are being murdered and persecuted all over the world more than any other group of people. Christians who follow the Bible do not murder.



Right now, people are being told they cannot have the same rights as others, because your God says it is wrong.

Who is saying that? The Democrats and the Leftists and the Muslims and others are doing that to Christians all over the world.

Right now, children are being threatened with going to hell if they are not obedient, in the name of your god.

I have rarely heard a Christian say"You're going to hell if you are not obedient in the name of my God" But the Bible does say that if you reject Christ you will go to hell. Take that up with God if you don't like it.

Right now, active child abusers are being protected and hidden away by a massive, globe spanning organisation that works in the name of your god.

FALSE. Who? I know that the Democrats and left protect the muslims who do this type of thing.

Right now, people are being told lies about literal life-and-death situations in order to support the creed of your god.

This is happening in the public schools every day by evolutionists and atheists. Muslims do this as well in the name of their false gods or lack thereof.

We poke fun at your beliefs because the alternative is utter despair at the atrocities being committed in your gods name. Atrocities that your blind faith and unwillingness to question actually enables.

You poke fun at Christians because you don't know God by your own admission. You are lost and in need of a Savior. Name some atrocities done by Christians who were actually following the Bible. I will name 100x more atrocities done by muslims who were following the koran and atheists who don't believe in God, but follow the religion of evolution.


I kinda hope there is a heaven that is a nice place to be, and that only the victims of Christianity get to go there. If so, it had better be a big palce, because otherwise its gonna get crowded real quick.

The Christians are the only ones going to heaven. If you want to go there, you must humble yourself before God and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believing in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins. The Christians aren't the ones murdering, it's the people who think like you do who are doing that 100x more often.

My response is in bold above.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

The bible totally says to threaten children with hell. I've already linked you a bunch of shit about it.

You KEEP doing this thing where I'll take something out of the bible and you just pretend it's not a thing. It is a thing. You don't have to believe it- but if THAT part of the bible isn't true- then none of is true. That's how that works.

Give me chapter and verse.

 

[Tryharder62]

To be fair- anyone doing their part wouldn't talk to us the way she does. To KEEP spewing, "God is love" after we say, "Your god is literally telling people to kill me" is not "doing your part".

If you pick and choose what you believe in the bible to make yourself look good to non-believers, you aren't a good Christian. If you disavow the word of god to make it seem like I can get into Heaven, for instance.

If you perform all of your duties as outlined in the bible- she ought not even be speaking here. I'm a dude. With a dick. She's a woman- but she's arguing with me on a public platform, which the bible spells out as a big no-no.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 ESV / 976 helpful votes
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

It is important to note that the Bible begins with the creation of male and female in the image of God. Genesis 1:27 states, “God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” He does not love one over the other.

1 Timothy 2 :11-15

Paul was addressing a particular problem specific to the church at Ephesus in which false teaching was resulting in inappropriate behavior. Paul was not giving a universal order to all women of all time not to teach nor have authority over a man, but was ordering that women do not assume superiority over men or promote false teachings. Women should learn first, being educated in the faith before they teach. It is clear from Paul’s other letters that Paul supported women teachers and leaders. Priscilla was a minister of the Gospel who taught a man, Apollos (Acts 18:26), and in 2 Timothy, Paul asks Timothy to greet Priscilla and Aquila (4:19). Surely, I Timothy 2:11-15 is not prescriptive to women for all time if Paul also commends women leaders and teachers.

1 Timothy 5:1-2 ESV / 649 helpful votes
Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity.

Opps you got me on this one. My bad. So Dad, sometimes I think you are full of crap, but I think you will get the hang of it? You do know I like you. You should see how I act with people I don't. (I become Invisible) It looks like I have work to do here.

Proverbs 21:19 ESV / 496 helpful votes
It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman.

Sounds like good advice to me.

An on and on and on.

I say that for a couple of reasons- 1: I think you forgot the rampant sexism that keeps women down in Christianity (in your earlier post), and 2: Not to play the "God literally thinks I'm worth more because I have a dick and you're not allowed to argue with me" card- but I got a full deck and I feel like the time is right.

God literally thinks I'm worth more because I have a dick, and she's not allowed to argue with me. So, speaking to Tryharder: Are you gonna do what you did with the illegitimacy thing and say that's not a real thing just because you don't like it? Because... that's not very Christian.

Sucks being the one god doesn't like doesn't it? Bet it sucks more if you think this shit is real.

God puts a literal value on human life based on what he thinks it's worth. Men are worth more than women.

Leviticus 27

27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

Leviticus 27 had nothing to do with the worth of these individuals as people.

The law of Leviticus 27 recognized that the burden of manual labor fell primarily on the male—and only during the years of his strength. The redemption price had nothing to do with the inherent worth of men and women; it had everything to do with the practicality of production in an agricultural society.

 

[Tryharder62]

The bible totally says to threaten children with hell. I've already linked you a bunch of shit about it.

You KEEP doing this thing where I'll take something out of the bible and you just pretend it's not a thing. It is a thing. You don't have to believe it- but if THAT part of the bible isn't true- then none of is true. That's how that works.

This was said to phrodeau but honestly I can't find, in the searches I've done, where God threatens children with hell? I have tried to search this thread for anywhere that links a bunch of stuff. I can't find any.

What I keep doing is disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture.

 

[CandiCame]

It is important to note that the Bible begins with the creation of male and female in the image of God. Genesis 1:27 states, “God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” He does not love one over the other.

1 Timothy 2 :11-15

Paul was addressing a particular problem specific to the church at Ephesus in which false teaching was resulting in inappropriate behavior. Paul was not giving a universal order to all women of all time not to teach nor have authority over a man, but was ordering that women do not assume superiority over men or promote false teachings. Women should learn first, being educated in the faith before they teach. It is clear from Paul’s other letters that Paul supported women teachers and leaders. Priscilla was a minister of the Gospel who taught a man, Apollos (Acts 18:26), and in 2 Timothy, Paul asks Timothy to greet Priscilla and Aquila (4:19). Surely, I Timothy 2:11-15 is not prescriptive to women for all time if Paul also commends women leaders and teachers.



Opps you got me on this one. My bad. So Dad, sometimes I think you are full of crap, but I think you will get the hang of it? You do know I like you. You should see how I act with people I don't. (I become Invisible) It looks like I have work to do here.



Sounds like good advice to me.



Leviticus 27 had nothing to do with the worth of these individuals as people.

The law of Leviticus 27 recognized that the burden of manual labor fell primarily on the male—and only during the years of his strength. The redemption price had nothing to do with the inherent worth of men and women; it had everything to do with the practicality of production in an agricultural society.

Check it out, an atheist got a Christian to read the bible.

Well, parts of it.

Or to just make shit up, since those monetary prices were placed on MURDER not manual labor. I don't know who you're quoting there, but stop listening to false prophets and read the book.

Preferably with some good footnotes so you can understand the Hebrew because... you're getting a lot of shit wrong by believing translators.

 

[CandiCame]

This was said to phrodeau but honestly I can't find, in the searches I've done, where God threatens children with hell? I have tried to search this thread for anywhere that links a bunch of stuff. I can't find any.

What I keep doing is disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture.

So you don't think you have to beat the devil out of a child or train them up?

Read the book.

I'm not interpreting it, because it's not up for interpretation. I'm telling you what it says and you're making up bullshit with your womanly brain because you're probably hysterical like god says.

 

[CandiCame]

Also, again, you're listening to a preacher over Paul. Pauly boy was NOTORIOUSLY sexist and did genuinely believe that women should just, and I am paraphrasing here, shut the fuck up.

Read. The. Book.

There's actually an interesting bit of history here, again, if you'd read the bible as a BOOK and not try to spin it.

There are two reasons why Christians believe women are... basically kids and property, and they make contextual sense for their society.

The first is the most obvious- as birth control wasn't a thing, most folks with uteri were pregnant more often than not- and pregnancy genuinely does have side effects that affect the brain, like mood swings. That's also why the bible goes on and on about women as vessels through which the bond of life flows. I'm going to drop the dick act for a second and not pretend to be an expert on childbirth- I'm just saying that historically, you can see where they're coming from here.

The second reason is a lot less obvious to a modern person, and a LOT more squicky. See, back in the day, child brides were a BIG thing. You came of age at 13- or as I call it, "A middle-school girl". So if your wife is 13 and you're in your 40s- it makes PERFECT SENSE to treat her as a child. There were also a lot of cases where the line between adoption and marriage is SUPER blurry.

When you take these two facts into account- marrying age being prime pokemon playing years and high pregnancy with little medical care- most women didn't survive a lot of those childbirths, and therefore, most of the women that they're making these rules for ARE children. So this mentality of infantalizing women makes sense by its own logic.

When you're told to listen to and obey your husband, it's about like being told to listen to and obey your dad. There's no mention of equality (like how you're trying to spin it) because those people, in that relationship were not equal. You could sell you daughter into marriage (the bible explains how to do it- and straight up slavery) because they were considered property.

That's a true fact, and Christians all over the world still believe it. Child brides are still a thing in many place, because of that. So, again, trying to argue me that it's not in there, or that that's not what it means when that's flat-out what it SAYS is /actively hindering little girls who are being sex trafficked/. Because people are doing that BECAUSE god tells them to.

Those kids- and there are a LOT of them, are being sold into "marriages" (sex slavery) because of what your god says. They are VICTIMS of Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions because they all use the same sexist code of conduct).

Like... these are real thing affecting real people- so for you to just say, "That's not what it says" when it very clearly is what it says, is extremely disrespectful, and, as another user already pointed out, PART OF THE PROBLEM.

If you want to argue that instead of accepting it and admitting that it's wrong so that you can police your own- you're part of the problem. If you want to say it's open to interpretation, instead of looking at what it says and realizing it's amoral, then you are part of the problem.

You can quote as many preachers as you want to, and that will still be true.

I'll still be an illegitimate child who was cursed, if the bible is true, whether you believe it or not.

These kids will still be forced into marriage, if the bible is true, whether you believe it or not.

Heaven will still be a torturous hellscape, if the bible is true, whether you believe it or not.

As long as we accept that the bible is true, horrible things will happen because the bible is fucking horrible. The laws are horrible. The way we're meant to live according to the bible is horrible. The god of the bible is horrible.

And some of us are unwilling to BE horrible, without tangible proof.
I daresay some of us would be unwilling even if we had proof.

If I had undeniable proof that the bible was true? The devil would have a new errand boy.

 

[Led_Astray]

I'm going to ignore the "No U!" part of your responses, as this isn't a playground and we are not 4 year olds.

Lotsa complex quoting in this, so lets see if it works:

Me: Right now, people are being murdered by Christians in the name of your God.

Frodo: Who? Christians are being murdered and persecuted all over the world more than any other group of people. Christians who follow the Bible do not murder.

Well, ignoring all the murdering done in the bible, and the crusades, and the 50 years or so of terrorism in the UK, lets go to the Caentral African Republic to see how Christians "love thy neighbour"...

"Stephen O'Brien, the U.N. Under Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, said on Aug. 7 that the situation in the Central African Republic had deteriorated to the point that "the early warning signs of genocide" were there. That a U.N. official is using the "g" word to describe the violence in the country is significant, given that fears of genocide has provoked intervention before, last in 2013. O'Brien called for a bolstering of the Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in the Central African Republic (MINUSCA), which currently comprises around 12,500 peacekeepers. He also noted that in Bangassou, in the country's south, some 2,000 Muslim Central Africans that had taken refuge at a church more than three months ago are at risk of being massacred by Christian militants who have surrounded them. Bangassou has been the site of recent instability, and at least 3 U.N. peacekeepers had been killed there as of the end of July."

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/central-african-republic-specter-genocide-raised

Of course, I can predict your counter-argument, a no-true-scotsman fallacy, but meh.

Me: Right now, people are being told they cannot have the same rights as others, because your God says it is wrong.

Frodo: Who is saying that?

Wow. You DARE stand there and claim ignorance of the way the way your own country discriminates against homosexuals? You honestly don't know that in your own country there are still people refusing to issue marriage licences to gay couples - and that this behaviour has been judged "ok" on the grounds of their religion? There are still people refusing to let gay couples adopt? There are still... I needn't go on. Either you are impossibly dense or wilfully ignorant.

Me:Right now, children are being threatened with going to hell if they are not obedient, in the name of your god.

Frodo: I have rarely heard a Christian say "You're going to hell if you are not obedient in the name of my God" But the Bible does say that if you reject Christ you will go to hell. Take that up with God if you don't like it.

Rarely isn't never, is it?

I would take it up with god, but I don't talk to imaginary beings (except the ones who post on the internet). Its people who use the bible to justify their abuse does that are causing the problems.

Me:Right now, active child abusers are being protected and hidden away by a massive, globe spanning organisation that works in the name of your god.

Frodo: FALSE. Who?

A little Christian organistaion called "The Catholic Church". You may have heard of it, it's quite popular I believe. Can't beleive you are ignorant of this. Hope that doesn't mean you are bearing false witness, cos that's a sin, isn't it?

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/4/177677...ex-abuse-priest-pope-francis-crisis-explained

Bear in mind some of the priests that were moved into new dioceses - sometimes in other countries - still havn't been prosecuted thanks to the church protecting them.

Me: Right now, people are being told lies about literal life-and-death situations in order to support the creed of your god.

Frodo: (Other than No! U!, nothing...)

Can't even deny that one, eh? And then in you "No U!" comment you go on to call evolution a lie, which brings us right back up to the "Christians trying to deny rights to others" business that you denied. Children have a right to learn what science has discovered. Your book has no place in science lessons.

Me:We poke fun at your beliefs because the alternative is utter despair at the atrocities being committed in your gods name. Atrocities that your blind faith and unwillingness to question actually enables.

Frodo: You poke fun at Christians because you don't know God by your own admission. You are lost and in need of a Savior.

Again - look at your responses. You blindly defend your faith by lashing out at others, even when the facts are demonstatably otherwise. You are either appalingly dense or willfully ignorant of everything you have denied above, yet still feel qualified to tell other people how to live their lives. Why *wouldn't* we poke fun at you?

But I am really excited to see your response. I have posted at least one peice of nastiness carried out by Christians following the bible (homophobic denying of rights to others) so I await with bated breath your promised post of 100 atrocities carried out by atheists.

(Dunno why you keep dragging muslims into this though, they follow the same god as you, and it isn't a "who can be the most atrocios religion" competition. When a muslim starts posting to tell me I'm going to hell, I'll treat him just as I have treated you.)

Me: I kinda hope there is a heaven that is a nice place to be, and that only the victims of Christianity get to go there. If so, it had better be a big palce, because otherwise its gonna get crowded real quick.

Frodo: The Christians are the only ones going to heaven. If you want to go there, you must humble yourself before God and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believing in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins.

So, millions of human beings that existed before Christ - no heaven for them. Indigenious tribes who have never heard of Jesus - no heaven for them. People who live the lives of utter saints, but happen to be born into a non-christian faith - no heaven for them. Babies who die before being able to accept Christ - no heaven for them.

Meanwhile, Jeffrey Dahmer, who raped, murdered, dismembered and even ate parts of at least 17 boys and men gets to go to heaven, thanks to accepting Jesus whilst in prison

Wow, your acceptance rules are kinda dickish, aren't they?

 

[Tryharder62]

So you don't think you have to beat the devil out of a child or train them up?

Read the book.

I'm not interpreting it, because it's not up for interpretation. I'm telling you what it says and you're making up bullshit with your womanly brain because you're probably hysterical like god says.

You are interpreting it, but the only interpretation you want to look at is yours. I am not going to bring our discussion down to personal attacks. When that happens it usually means the one doing that has run out of good reasons for their arguments. I respect your right to disagree with me. To be honest, my heart hurts because I feel you look at the bible through the lens of someone who has been deeply hurt. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. Having these discussions always has me in the word more. Even though I do read the book, I can always do that more.

1 Corinthians 13:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

 

[Led_Astray]

You are interpreting it, but the only interpretation you want to look at is yours. I am not going to bring our discussion down to personal attacks. When that happens it usually means the one doing that has run out of good reasons for their arguments. I respect your right to disagree with me. To be honest, my heart hurts because I feel you look at the bible through the lense of someone who has been deeply hurt. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. Having these discussions always has me in the word more. Even though I do read the book, I can always do that more.

1 Corinthians 13:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

There are plenty of examples in Proverbs alone telling us to beat children.

Proverbs 23:13-15 ESV
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Proverbs 22:15 ESV
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15 ESV
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

Proverbs 20:30 ESV
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.

And this little gem from Deutronomy tells us what to do if the beatings don't work.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

 

[phrodeau]

Hundreds more child-abusing Catholic priests hit the news.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10...rancisco-dioceses-accused-of-child-sex-abuse/

The report names 135 accused offenders in the Archdiocese of San Francisco, 95 in the Oakland diocese and 33 in the San Jose diocese, though 51 names are duplicates because some of the priests worked in more than one Bay Area diocese. Earlier this month, the San Jose diocese released its own list of credibly accused priests that had only 15 names, which this report calls “deficient.”

 

[Tryharder62]

There are plenty of examples in Proverbs alone telling us to beat children.

Proverbs 23:13-15 ESV
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Proverbs 22:15 ESV
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15 ESV
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

Proverbs 20:30 ESV
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.

And this little gem from Deutronomy tells us what to do if the beatings don't work.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Thank you for this information. I was putting beating in my search and nothing came up, but when you put in rod it does. I never saw the verses attributed to "spare the rod and spoil the child" as license to beat them. God often used examples of shephard with their sheep. Shephards had two tools they used to redirect the sheep. One was the rod and the other was the staff. Most often the shephard would redirect the sheep with the staff, but if time was critical to their safety they would swat them with the rod. In Psalm 23, I don't think David would say to the Lord who he calls his shephard---thy rod and thy staff thy comfort me-- if these verses meant beating.

The verse in Deuteronomy, although I have read it, I haven't looked at deeper. I will have to do that. Thanks!

 

[phrodeau]

Thank you for this information. I was putting beating in my search and nothing came up, but when you put in rod it does. I never saw the verses attributed to "spare the rod and spoil the child" as license to beat them. God often used examples of shephard with their sheep. Shephards had two tools they used to redirect the sheep. One was the rod and the other was the staff. Most often the shephard would redirect the sheep with the staff, but if time was critical to their safety they would swat them with the rod. In Psalm 23, I don't think David would say to the Lord who he calls his shephard---thy rod and thy staff thy comfort me-- if these verses meant beating.

The verse in Deuteronomy, although I have read it, I haven't looked at deeper. I will have to do that. Thanks!

Proverbs 23:13 "strike him with a rod" in Hebrew is "nakah shebet", and there is no non-violent definition for that phrase.

 

[phrodeau]

Another fun fact, Proverbs 23:13 "he will not die" in Hebrew is "muwth" which is the same word used by the Serpent to Eve when he tells her the Big Lie, "Ye shall not surely die" in Genesis 3:4.

 

[Led_Astray]

Thank you for this information. I was putting beating in my search and nothing came up, but when you put in rod it does. I never saw the verses attributed to "spare the rod and spoil the child" as license to beat them. God often used examples of shephard with their sheep. Shephards had two tools they used to redirect the sheep. One was the rod and the other was the staff. Most often the shephard would redirect the sheep with the staff, but if time was critical to their safety they would swat them with the rod. In Psalm 23, I don't think David would say to the Lord who he calls his shephard---thy rod and thy staff thy comfort me-- if these verses meant beating.

The verse in Deuteronomy, although I have read it, I haven't looked at deeper. I will have to do that. Thanks!

You appear to have totally skipped over the whole "blows that wound drive away evil" bit.

I don't know what your source is, but you do seem to be stretching pretty far in your attempt to sanitise the bible. Do you have a non-biblical historical source for the carrying and of a staff and a rod?

Because, curiously, the only references I found were all Christian sites. There must be original sources somewhere? Since their use isn't described in the bible, where else could these descriptions (sometimes contradictory) of the rod and the staff have come from? Some contemporary art, or historic accounts of shepherding that describe the use of these tools? Archaeological evidence?

Otherwise we might have to assume Christians are making up fake history to try to make it sounds as though the bible wasn't encouraging child beating.

 

[Tryharder62]

You appear to have totally skipped over the whole "blows that wound drive away evil" bit.

I don't know what your source is, but you do seem to be stretching pretty far in your attempt to sanitise the bible. Do you have a non-biblical historical source for the carrying and of a staff and a rod?

Because, curiously, the only references I found were all Christian sites. There must be original sources somewhere? Since their use isn't described in the bible, where else could these descriptions (sometimes contradictory) of the rod and the staff have come from? Some contemporary art, or historic accounts of shepherding that describe the use of these tools? Archaeological evidence?

Otherwise we might have to assume Christians are making up fake history to try to make it sounds as though the bible wasn't encouraging child beating.

It is pretty much general knowledge about the rod and staff. Look at Wiki
The shepherd's crook is a strong multi-purpose stick or staff, often fashioned with a hooked end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd

Sometimes the staff and rod are often used interchangeably in the bible but they were two different things. The shepherd's crook or the staff and a usually smaller piece of wood that could be flung at the sheep if the shepherd couldn't get to them in time so they would scurry back to the group.

Modern shepherding has changed but some still continue the old way like this Afghanistan shepherd.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4057/4400217305_2d902129df_d.jpg

There is a lot of art but here is a famous one if that helps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_Moses

What I think about Proverbs 20:30 is that sometimes pain is better than evil.
https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/cp0/e15/q65/s320x320/30741508_10155476812255893_4337209613616152576_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=c1b5fdcc55cdf4929825a71331136179&oe=5C3E7286

Deuteronomy's purpose is to try to get through to the people who had just been in the wilderness for 40 years, been saved, and still didn't have a clue. This was Moses last change to give them structure to keep them safe before he died. There is definitely things that I read and cringe. I would not do things the same way God did. It is a good thing that God is God. He knew of the war these people would face and what they would need to do to get through it.

Ajay Abraham wrote something on Quora that I liked:

Love Highlighted. Love, kindness, and consideration are also highlighted in Deuteronomy. The word “love” itself, either as a noun or as a form of the verb, occurs more than five times as often in Deuteronomy as in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers combined. Here we also have the greatest commandment, to which Jesus referred (Mt 22:36, 37), uniquely stated: “You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.” (De 6:5; see also 10:12; 11:13.) Jehovah repeatedly expresses his love for Israel. (7:7-9; 23:5; 33:3) The very tone of Deuteronomy highlights Jehovah’s love for his people: “If only they would develop this heart of theirs to fear me and to keep all my commandments always, in order that it might go well with them and their sons to time indefinite!” (5:29) In fact, we find such expressions as “that it may go well with you” and “that you may keep alive” time and again in Deuteronomy.—4:40; 5:16; 6:3; 22:7; 30:19, 20.

What should have happened did!!!

 

[CandiCame]

This chick'll literally type the word "fear" and claim it means love.

Lord have mercy.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

There are plenty of examples in Proverbs alone telling us to beat children.

Proverbs 23:13-15 ESV
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Proverbs 22:15 ESV
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15 ESV
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

Proverbs 20:30 ESV
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.

And this little gem from Deutronomy tells us what to do if the beatings don't work.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I believe in spanking. More kids need spankings these days. It's a big reason that the kids are so messed up now days.

 

[Kirkrapine]

I believe in spanking.

So do most Litsters, I'm sure.

More kids need spankings these days.

But of adults, not kids.

It's a big reason that the kids are so messed up now days.

I see no reason to believe kids are especially messed up nowadays. Tats, piercings, and even fondness for drugs do not constitute juvenile delinquency.

 

[Led_Astray]

It is pretty much general knowledge about the rod and staff. Look at Wiki
The shepherd's crook is a strong multi-purpose stick or staff, often fashioned with a hooked end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd

Sometimes the staff and rod are often used interchangeably in the bible but they were two different things. The shepherd's crook or the staff and a usually smaller piece of wood that could be flung at the sheep if the shepherd couldn't get to them in time so they would scurry back to the group.

Modern shepherding has changed but some still continue the old way like this Afghanistan shepherd.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4057/4400217305_2d902129df_d.jpg

Nope, the word Rod does not appear ONCE in that article, only crook or staff. Nor is there reference to a short throwing stick, staff or club. Did you actually read it? Nor is there a rod like the one you described in that photo. I'm disappointed, frankly, your responses are getting more sloppy and I am starting to lose my respect.

You are the one that posted here to say the rod was a throwing-club used to guide sheep non-violently, but I have been unable to find any historic references at all to such a throwing club. Only religious ones.

The only conclusion I can reach is that its a made up definition used by modern Christians to try to make out that the bible doesn't encourage the beating of children. I don't know if you are deliberately spreading falsehoods or have just been taken in by them.

 

[Led_Astray]

I believe in spanking. More kids need spankings these days. It's a big reason that the kids are so messed up now days.

I work with messed up children on a daily basis. I can assure you that spanking in any form is the last thing they need.

 

[Tryharder62]

You appear to have totally skipped over the whole "blows that wound drive away evil" bit.

I don't know what your source is, but you do seem to be stretching pretty far in your attempt to sanitise the bible. Do you have a non-biblical historical source for the carrying and of a staff and a rod?

Because, curiously, the only references I found were all Christian sites. There must be original sources somewhere? Since their use isn't described in the bible, where else could these descriptions (sometimes contradictory) of the rod and the staff have come from? Some contemporary art, or historic accounts of shepherding that describe the use of these tools? Archaeological evidence?

Otherwise we might have to assume Christians are making up fake history to try to make it sounds as though the bible wasn't encouraging child beating.

Nope, the word Rod does not appear ONCE in that article, only crook or staff. Nor is there reference to a short throwing stick, staff or club. Did you actually read it? Nor is there a rod like the one you described in that photo. I'm disappointed, frankly, your responses are getting more sloppy and I am starting to lose my respect.

You are the one that posted here to say the rod was a throwing-club used to guide sheep non-violently, but I have been unable to find any historic references at all to such a throwing club. Only religious ones.

The only conclusion I can reach is that its a made up definition used by modern Christians to try to make out that the bible doesn't encourage the beating of children. I don't know if you are deliberately spreading falsehoods or have just been taken in by them.

So I can't use biblical references. I can't use any research that is done by a Christian, even though our Lord calls himself a Shepherd. I would think it would be very important to find out exactly what that really means. So I find material that at least has you nonchalantly saying there is a staff. Here is another one...

https://animals.mom.me/how-to-use-the-rod-the-staff-in-sheep-herding-7983946.html

Sometimes rod and staff were used interchangeably. The Hebrew word Shebet is why. The term “rod” in the Hebrew is shebet, which means, simply, a rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre or the like.

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-77bf-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99#/?zoom=true

This is a modern Palastinian shepherd with a rod in one hand a staff in the other and the modern day gun!!!!

I don't know that what a rod and staff would be used for would always be non-violent. I suppose getting a stick thrown at you could be a violent act for the sheep, as well as having a hook around your neck redirecting your path. However, without the rod and staff it would be nearly impossible to keep the sheep safe and alive. Jesus claimed to be a good shepherd.

John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Did you know that the shepherd would try before night to put his sheep in an area that was safe. He might find a cave, or an area where something could not come up behind them. Then he would guard that area often putting himself between the sheep and danger. Studying shepherds does give an amazing picture.

I had to read to find out about it.

 

[Led_Astray]

So I can't use biblical references. I can't use any research that is done by a Christian, even though our Lord calls himself a Shepherd. I would think it would be very important to find out exactly what that really means. So I find material that at least has you nonchalantly saying there is a staff. Here is another one...

https://animals.mom.me/how-to-use-the-rod-the-staff-in-sheep-herding-7983946.html

Sometimes rod and staff were used interchangeably. The Hebrew word Shebet is why. The term “rod” in the Hebrew is shebet, which means, simply, a rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre or the like.

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-77bf-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99#/?zoom=true

This is a modern Palastinian shepherd with a rod in one hand a staff in the other and the modern day gun!!!!

I don't know that what a rod and staff would be used for would always be non-violent. I suppose getting a stick thrown at you could be a violent act for the sheep, as well as having a hook around your neck redirecting your path. However, without the rod and staff it would be nearly impossible to keep the sheep safe and alive. Jesus claimed to be a good shepherd.

John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Did you know that the shepherd would try before night to put his sheep in an area that was safe. He might find a cave, or an area where something could not come up behind them. Then he would guard that area often putting himself between the sheep and danger. Studying shepherds does give an amazing picture.

I had to read to find out about it.

Yes, I am quite aware that rod and staff are used interchangeably. YOU are the the one that said otherwise, that said the rod was a specific implement, used to discipline sheep without hurting them, to tell us that that the bible doesn't advocate child beating.

I am just interested in finding your original source. Since the rod-as-throwing-club isn't described in the bible, where did it come from? What historical document, or archaeological find, or cave painting or piece of shepherding lore tells us about this mystical instrument that only ever seems to appear in modern Christian interpretations? If its the go-to explanation as to why the bible isn't advocating child beating, don't you think you should have an answer to that question before spreading that explanation?

What was your source, out of interest?

In shepherd lore, there is talk of using a thrown clod of earth to redirect sheep. And you can find historical evidence of shepherds staves with a flattened, spoon;like end specifically for the purpose of digging up such a clod and flicking it in front of a wayward sheep.

And for defence of the flock, we know, historically AND biblically, that the weapon of choice for a shepherd was not a thrown club, but the far more powerful and accurate sling. After all, David didn't fell Goliath with a rod, now, did he...

Staffs, slings, clods of earth, crooks, all of these things are familiar to shepherds, and can be found in historica accounts, byzantine art, and the bible. But of thrown clubs - the artefact YOU brought to the conversation - there is no mention - except in that one article we both found, by Rodney Wilson, the only shepherd in america who uses a rod, apparently. Except that his farm doesn't appear to have any sheep...

Sorry to harp on at this one point but I feel its an excellent example of the sanitizing of the bible by modern Christians. When what the bible says is unpalatable to modern ears, why, just tell folks it doesn't mean that at all. And if that involves making up fake historical facts, well, clearly bearing false witness is only a sin when other people do it, right?

 

[Tryharder62]

Yes, I am quite aware that rod and staff are used interchangeably. YOU are the the one that said otherwise, that said the rod was a specific implement, used to discipline sheep without hurting them, to tell us that that the bible doesn't advocate child beating.

I am just interested in finding your original source. Since the rod-as-throwing-club isn't described in the bible, where did it come from? What historical document, or archaeological find, or cave painting or piece of shepherding lore tells us about this mystical instrument that only ever seems to appear in modern Christian interpretations? If its the go-to explanation as to why the bible isn't advocating child beating, don't you think you should have an answer to that question before spreading that explanation?

What was your source, out of interest?

In shepherd lore, there is talk of using a thrown clod of earth to redirect sheep. And you can find historical evidence of shepherds staves with a flattened, spoon;like end specifically for the purpose of digging up such a clod and flicking it in front of a wayward sheep.

And for defence of the flock, we know, historically AND biblically, that the weapon of choice for a shepherd was not a thrown club, but the far more powerful and accurate sling. After all, David didn't fell Goliath with a rod, now, did he...

Staffs, slings, clods of earth, crooks, all of these things are familiar to shepherds, and can be found in historica accounts, byzantine art, and the bible. But of thrown clubs - the artefact YOU brought to the conversation - there is no mention - except in that one article we both found, by Rodney Wilson, the only shepherd in america who uses a rod, apparently. Except that his farm doesn't appear to have any sheep...

Sorry to harp on at this one point but I feel its an excellent example of the sanitizing of the bible by modern Christians. When what the bible says is unpalatable to modern ears, why, just tell folks it doesn't mean that at all. And if that involves making up fake historical facts, well, clearly bearing false witness is only a sin when other people do it, right?

I think you would have to look at the Hebrew. Why in translation was this term shebet translated into different words?

Definition shebet
rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe
rod, staff
shaft (of spear, dart)
club (of shepherd's implement)
truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)
clan, tribe

Usually people who are interested in the Hebrew have some religious affiliation, though.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/culture_manners_shepherd.html

My question to you is what if there is not a separation and rod and staff were the same thing. They were used to throw or guide the sheep! What would that change for you?