How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[phrodeau]

Now when I open this thread, I just can't stop thinking about Donald Trump getting whacked with a magazine.

 

[CandiCame]

People who think like you are what's wrong with the world. It's why the kids today are so messed up. I never said it was my first option. Of course it is a last resort, but it works when needed. Don't call me a failure, that a complete lie. My daughter is a 4.2 GPA student and my son took 5th in the State last year in wrestling. They love Jesus which is the most important thing in life. I only taught my kids to hit in self defense and that is the best thing to do if someone is attacking you. Only an abusive moron would think otherwise. I think you have a logical disconnect and it sounds like you have been corrupted by liberal, anti Christian thinking.

Ok, so, again- how did you let it get out of control SO BADLY that you had to resort to violence with your children? You didn't answer the question. How did you fuck up THAT BAD? What were the circumstances surrounding the event that led to that massive failure on your part?

You know how I know, from this response alone, that you've failed your kids? A LOT of shit. You rank them by their accomplishments, not their contentment. You think that how much they "love Jesus" is more important than how much they love themselves.

But mostly- because you think you haven't failed your children. Any parent who claims that they've never failed their children is abusive. That's one of the MAJOR signs of abuse- my kid is four and I can already think of a thousand things I should have done better- because that's what good parents do. Good parents REALIZE when they've fucked up, and they try to make things right. Anyone who claims that they're NOT a failure as a parent DEFINITELY is.

You've fucked up. I don't know how you let it get that bad, and I sure as fuck don't know how you deluded yourself into thinking it didn't happen- but the fact that you can't admit that is TESTIMATE to how BADLY you fucked up.

Is this where I talk about love?

I just caution about spanking. I know that it is really taught in some religious circles. I was basically a stay at home mother. I have always worked part time after we had kids. I remember I could not get my youngest son to listen. It was getting really bad so I thought "I am going to be a good mother and give him a spanking." I went to cool down and came back and decided I was going to give him 10 swats on the butt with clothes on, so I did." He cried, my other son cried.

It wasn't until years later that my son brought it up and told me how he felt about it. He noticed that I had never spanked my other son. The 10 swats were too many and it made him feel the way I never wanted any child of mine to feel. It felt abusive to him so I had to tell him if it felt that way to him than it was not the right choice for me to make. I apologized. I really do have amazing children that share so much with me about their lives. We are really close because we have good communication. They are such amazing young men.

If I could do it over again I wouldn't have been a "good mother" and given him a spanking. What a parent may see as discipline their child may feel belittled by. Don't get me wrong I think a lot of the problem today is that parents don't give their children consequences for the bad things they do. I just think their are other ways to do it.

What about love? (Thought I might include that for Candicame)

You hit a kid... ten times... because he didn't listen to you? I just... still don't get how you let it get that bad? To be fair, I'm trying to think of a time that my kid didn't listen to me- and made the wrong call, and the only thing that's coming to mind is that she ran off from me a couple of times when she really didn't need to but it was never somewhere where that would have been really dangerous to do. Like it wouldn't have hurt her, it was just aggravating. GF wanted to get one of those child leashes, because she was scared that if she did it at home, she'd do it in public, and one "If you don't quit running away like a dumbass TRYING to get kidnapped, we'll put you on a leash" talk to calm her ass down. Like, after she found out kidnapping was a THING she quit.

It never occurred to me to hit her. You don't hit someone you love without their express consent. It just doesn't come up. That's why my post was a question. How the hell do you let it get that bad?

I get that everyone makes mistakes. I've made mistakes. I'm not judging someone on one mistake that they were later able to apologize for and work through. I get that sometimes you want to slap a bitch- but you don't do it.

I just, again, don't understand how it ever gets to that point.

 

[Kirkrapine]

I just caution about spanking. I know that it is really taught in some religious circles.

Why is that?!

 

[CandiCame]

A distaste for spanking is anti-Christian? According to what, the Gospel of Saint de Sade?

Dude, the bible tells you to beat the shit out of your kids- to death if you have to.

If beating your son doesn't work, like he still won't listen to you, you can take him into town and have him stoned to death. Like at will, apropo of nothing.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV / 390 helpful votes
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

In fact, NOT abusing your children means that you hate them.

Proverbs 13:24 ESV / 365 helpful votes
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

If you don't beat them, they'll be stupid.

Proverbs 22:15 ESV / 300 helpful votes
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

If they smart mouth you, straight-up kill them.

Leviticus 20:9 ESV / 298 helpful votes
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Like... OP is right. I've not scratched the surface of this- there's a LOT of it. It is unchristian not to abuse your kids. But I'm an atheist and I don't give a shit whether or not it's Christian. I care more about my kid than some imaginary god.

There's this couple who wrote this book, "To Train up a Child." Google that. Kids have been beaten to death using that book- which teaches how to parent from a biblical perspective- and the thing is, from a biblical perspective- they're not wrong.

But here in the really real world, CPS doesn't give a fuck what your god wants, and you will go to jail for the murders you commit.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Dude, the bible tells you to beat the shit out of your kids- to death if you have to.

If beating your son doesn't work, like he still won't listen to you, you can take him into town and have him stoned to death. Like at will, apropo of nothing.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV / 390 helpful votes
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

At least they left out daughters. That's something.

Come to think of it, in the story of the woman taken in adultery, where was her lover? He would also be liable to die by stones, and since she was taken "in the very act," they could have caught him just as easily.

 

[Tryharder62]

You hit a kid... ten times... because he didn't listen to you? I just... still don't get how you let it get that bad? To be fair, I'm trying to think of a time that my kid didn't listen to me- and made the wrong call, and the only thing that's coming to mind is that she ran off from me a couple of times when she really didn't need to but it was never somewhere where that would have been really dangerous to do. Like it wouldn't have hurt her, it was just aggravating. GF wanted to get one of those child leashes, because she was scared that if she did it at home, she'd do it in public, and one "If you don't quit running away like a dumbass TRYING to get kidnapped, we'll put you on a leash" talk to calm her ass down. Like, after she found out kidnapping was a THING she quit.

It never occurred to me to hit her. You don't hit someone you love without their express consent. It just doesn't come up. That's why my post was a question. How the hell do you let it get that bad?

I get that everyone makes mistakes. I've made mistakes. I'm not judging someone on one mistake that they were later able to apologize for and work through. I get that sometimes you want to slap a bitch- but you don't do it.

I just, again, don't understand how it ever gets to that point.

Well that was just it. He wouldn't listen to me but that day it was in a dangerous situation and he almost got hit by a car. Thinking of your child dead can do strange things to you.

 

[CandiCame]

Well that was just it. He wouldn't listen to me but that day it was in a dangerous situation and he almost got hit by a car. Thinking of your child dead can do strange things to you.

Yeah, see, I can get that. I totally get losing your fucking shit and reacting like a monster in a moment of panic- because that kind of blind panic turns you into a monster. Like, I genuinely can't fault anyone for that. It really is a moment where you just completely can't think and are completely out of options.

I've only had one of those- I've been lucky. Some jackass hit my car and almost knocked me off a fucking cliff, and I got out ready to KILL. Like I was gonna straight up murder him. He was lucky I wasn't alone. I wouldn't have cared if it was just me, but you know, kid in the car. I had that moment of panic.

She's fine. Idk how. It fucked me up, but she's fine. The doctors said that it's actually pretty hard to fuck a kid up, because they're more limber or something. Apparently they can even pop their joints out of place and just pop them right back in like a fucking Barbie. Kids have wolverine powers.

But I didn't know that so I came REAL close to GTA jerking a motherfucker out of his car and throwing him over a cliff. But then my other passenger was like, "Hey you're acting fucking crazy. Quit. I'm calling the cops."

Still don't get how you know exactly how many times you hit him. That made it seem premeditated. I couldn't have premeditated anything. I couldn't even English. Like I don't have much of an accent but I apparently sounded like a Jeff Foxworthy skit. I was like, "Ima git 'at sunnova bitch."

Like... if a kid is little enough to not know traffic = dangerous, I also don't know how they got away from you long enough to get into that situation. Maybe you live by a road or something? Idk. I live in the woods miles away from anyone, with a fence, so if I wanted to I could pretty much turn her loose and tell her to come home for dinner. I mean, I don't but I probably could.

My folks did that to me, in the same location. We're so isolated that there's no traffic or anything. They get on to me for "hovering" because I don't really let her do anything alone. But she's so little... like, that might be my flaw and I own that. GF does it too. Idk what we think is gonna happen if we don't watch her every goddamn second- like my grandparents have asked me. Like, "What, are you afraid she'll use her imagination and be happy for five goddamn minutes?"

 

[CandiCame]

At least they left out daughters. That's something.

Come to think of it, in the story of the woman taken in adultery, where was her lover? He would also be liable to die by stones, and since she was taken "in the very act," they could have caught him just as easily.

To be fair, the original Hebrew is a gendered language- so there's no way to refer to a gender-neutral group of people, so often old sources will use the word "sons" to mean "all your kids", and "men" to mean "people". This used to be the case in English, too. The word "girl" in English just meant "child". It didn't become gendered until pretty recently, and in a lot of older English texts, "man" just meant an adult. So you see words like "mankind" instead of "humanity", but "mankind" meant all of humanity.

So different translators will tell you different things, based on the context- but unless the child-rearing advice is specifically gendered, "son" probably means "one of your kids". We can't fault them for this, because as far as I know, contemporary English doesn't even have a word that means, "Kid of either gender that you're raising". "Son" and "daughter" imply a familial relationship, but gender-neutral words like "child" or "kid" do not. So when you're translating from a gendered language into a gender-neutral language, but you don't have a gender-neutral term to use, it gets really difficult, and you have to use your personal judgement as a translator to figure out whether the gender or the familiar relationship is more important in the localization of the text.

Translating is difficult. It's not as easy as just moving from one language, verbatim, into another.

This might not be sexist, as some people have argued, in these specific examples. This might just be a translation issue. Different scholars will say different things.

 

[Tryharder62]

Why is that?!

Look at the old testament verses that Candicame quoted. I don't know why it had to be that way at the time, but some have considered that the hearts of the people were hardened. I honestly don't know.

No one takes into account the change Jesus made. No one looks into the New Testament. Verses like:

Eye for Eye in Matthew:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to treat our children differently than we would any other Christian or non-Christian.

I feel that a lot of Christians have created this weird break in their mind where they’ve put children under the “law” while adults are under grace. Of course some Christians have everyone under the law, and think nothing of arguing in favor of beating and bullying adults. But most of the punitive parents I’ve known are very gracious and show other adults (and even the children of other parents) considerable grace – but when it comes to their own children, it’s law.


Then people ask me so what.... did God do it wrong in the old testament and decide to do it a different way? No, Jesus was the plan all along. I think some things had to take place before he got here. Just my opinion.

 

[CandiCame]

Look at the old testament verses that Candicame quoted. I don't know why it had to be that way at the time, but some have considered that the hearts of the people were hardened. I honestly don't know.

No one takes into account the change Jesus made. No one looks into the New Testament.

Then people ask me so what.... did God do it wrong in the old testament and decide to do it a different way? No, Jesus was the plan all along. I think some things had to take place before he got here. Just my opinion.

Honey, read Mark 7 where Jesus literally bitches people out for not beating and killing their kids like they were supposed to because of prior teachings. He didn't restate them, he just referred back to them. There was no reason to write it twice. Actually, just look up the same story but in all 4 gospels, because it's in all of them.

Your god wants you to beat your kids, and if that doesn't work, to kill them. You can't finangle your way around that. You've tried since you started this thread. That's just a fact. The bible is very clear on that. You HAVE to train up a child in the way of the lord, with the rod and systematic beatings, or they will turn to wickedness. That simply IS how the bible wants you to raise your kids.

It's wrong. It's wrong as all get out.

But that's what a real Christian HAS to do. If you don't, you WILL be judged for it. It's not open to interpretation, that's not "my" interpretation, that's what the book says.

Because the book is WRONG. The bible is WRONG. About a lot of stuff. But that is what it says. You can't dance around it.

This is Jesus bitching out the Pharisees, because they, like you, refused to let parents beat their children for cursing them, and if the beatings don't work, to have them stoned to death, as was written in the old testimate. Jesus was telling them that they NEEDED to do that, and the fact that they had stopped was going to bite them in the ass.

7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Tryharder62]

Yeah, see, I can get that. I totally get losing your fucking shit and reacting like a monster in a moment of panic- because that kind of blind panic turns you into a monster. Like, I genuinely can't fault anyone for that. It really is a moment where you just completely can't think and are completely out of options.

I've only had one of those- I've been lucky. Some jackass hit my car and almost knocked me off a fucking cliff, and I got out ready to KILL. Like I was gonna straight up murder him. He was lucky I wasn't alone. I wouldn't have cared if it was just me, but you know, kid in the car. I had that moment of panic.

She's fine. Idk how. It fucked me up, but she's fine. The doctors said that it's actually pretty hard to fuck a kid up, because they're more limber or something. Apparently they can even pop their joints out of place and just pop them right back in like a fucking Barbie. Kids have wolverine powers.

But I didn't know that so I came REAL close to GTA jerking a motherfucker out of his car and throwing him over a cliff. But then my other passenger was like, "Hey you're acting fucking crazy. Quit. I'm calling the cops."

Still don't get how you know exactly how many times you hit him. That made it seem premeditated. I couldn't have premeditated anything. I couldn't even English. Like I don't have much of an accent but I apparently sounded like a Jeff Foxworthy skit. I was like, "Ima git 'at sunnova bitch."

Like... if a kid is little enough to not know traffic = dangerous, I also don't know how they got away from you long enough to get into that situation. Maybe you live by a road or something? Idk. I live in the woods miles away from anyone, with a fence, so if I wanted to I could pretty much turn her loose and tell her to come home for dinner. I mean, I don't but I probably could.

My folks did that to me, in the same location. We're so isolated that there's no traffic or anything. They get on to me for "hovering" because I don't really let her do anything alone. But she's so little... like, that might be my flaw and I own that. GF does it too. Idk what we think is gonna happen if we don't watch her every goddamn second- like my grandparents have asked me. Like, "What, are you afraid she'll use her imagination and be happy for five goddamn minutes?"

Well I thought I wasn't doing it in panic. We got home and I went away from him to try calm down. I thought if I set of number it wouldn't be like just wailing on him. In all fairness to those who are proponents of spanking - he never did it again. I just feel if I was really thinking right I could have found a better way. J. was always such a strong kid. Even though I would hold his hand he could pull away. We live a couple blocks from the park. He couldn't wait to get there.

Have to go to work...more on your post about Mark later.

 

[LupusDei]

I live in the woods miles away from anyone, with a fence, so if I wanted to I could pretty much turn her loose and tell her to come home for dinner. I mean, I don't but I probably could.

My folks did that to me, in the same location. We're so isolated that there's no traffic or anything. They get on to me for "hovering" because I don't really let her do anything alone.

Exactly the way I was growing up with my grandparents. If grandma yelled my name I had to respond immediately and show up in person within count to hundred or so or present detailed report of what where and why exactly I was doing to fail to do just that.

I have been spanked exactly once. I probably was just getting at grips what money is, and grandma was left her pension in plain sight, so I took it and hid in my own place, then refused to admit I did. They freaked out to the point my dad was called in from work in the city and told to spank me. He told he don't want to, but likely should, and we had a good talk about serious shit. I actually don't remember did he in the end, by that point I accept it and I have so fucked up high pain tolerance (probably from having constant bruises from falling off trees and what not) I culd just turn into a piece of wood not feeling anything for the act itself if he followed through with it as I believe he did.

Then a bit later, age seven, I was expected to navigate over two miles across city centre to and from school alone. And there was a guy who cried for her mommy, and girl that had to be dressed, and I was just blinking in disbelief.

 

[Tryharder62]

Honey, read Mark 7 where Jesus literally bitches people out for not beating and killing their kids like they were supposed to because of prior teachings. He didn't restate them, he just referred back to them. There was no reason to write it twice. Actually, just look up the same story but in all 4 gospels, because it's in all of them.

Your god wants you to beat your kids, and if that doesn't work, to kill them. You can't finangle your way around that. You've tried since you started this thread. That's just a fact. The bible is very clear on that. You HAVE to train up a child in the way of the lord, with the rod and systematic beatings, or they will turn to wickedness. That simply IS how the bible wants you to raise your kids.

It's wrong. It's wrong as all get out.

But that's what a real Christian HAS to do. If you don't, you WILL be judged for it. It's not open to interpretation, that's not "my" interpretation, that's what the book says.

Because the book is WRONG. The bible is WRONG. About a lot of stuff. But that is what it says. You can't dance around it.

This is Jesus bitching out the Pharisees, because they, like you, refused to let parents beat their children for cursing them, and if the beatings don't work, to have them stoned to death, as was written in the old testimate. Jesus was telling them that they NEEDED to do that, and the fact that they had stopped was going to bite them in the ass.

7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I don't think so. He isn't calling out people for not beating their children. He is calling them out for being hypocrites. Look at the entire chapter.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7&version=NIV

The Pharisees asked about the hand washing of the disciples because that was the ritualistic traditions of the elders. Jesus told them they just aren't getting spiritual reality. They were just doing it to show their piety not for any spiritual reasons.

He moves on to honoring our father and mother. He tells them, come on, you know the Commandment God gave Moses to Honor your father and mother or there will be consequences. The Pharisees neutralized that command by teaching that they could give money to the temple in lieu of helping their parents in need. Whatever money might have been used to provide for aging parents could be dedicated to the temple treasury instead. Saying, “It is Corban” would exempt a person from his responsibility to his parents. In other words, the Pharisees took a legitimate Corban offering and used it in an illegitimate and devious way to defraud their parents (and enrich themselves). Thus, the Law of God was nullified even though they were acting all self righteous.

In essence this had nothing to do with beatings. In my opinion, it had everything to do with Jesus telling them to get their head out of their butt and use some common sense.

 

[CandiCame]

I don't think so. He isn't calling out people for not beating their children. He is calling them out for being hypocrites. Look at the entire chapter.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7&version=NIV

The Pharisees asked about the hand washing of the disciples because that was the ritualistic traditions of the elders. Jesus told them they just aren't getting spiritual reality. They were just doing it to show their piety not for any spiritual reasons.

He moves on to honoring our father and mother. He tells them, come on, you know the Commandment God gave Moses to Honor your father and mother or there will be consequences. The Pharisees neutralized that command by teaching that they could give money to the temple in lieu of helping their parents in need. Whatever money might have been used to provide for aging parents could be dedicated to the temple treasury instead. Saying, “It is Corban” would exempt a person from his responsibility to his parents. In other words, the Pharisees took a legitimate Corban offering and used it in an illegitimate and devious way to defraud their parents (and enrich themselves). Thus, the Law of God was nullified even though they were acting all self righteous.

In essence this had nothing to do with beatings. In my opinion, it had everything to do with Jesus telling them to get their head out of their butt and use some common sense.

It doesn't matter what you think or what your opinion is. You're doing those mental gymnastics to try to get around the FACT that the bible says it's a sin not to beat your kids. That's annoying.

You don't have to LIKE what the bible says, but this shit where you try to twist the word of god to fit your preconceived narrative is ANNOYING, and also a sin that we were warned against. You HAVE to take it as written. The devil can TWIST scripture to his purpose. You're twisting.

Jesus outright said word for word that Moses was right about beating/killing uppidy kids and they were wrong. Yes, he ALSO said that they were hypocrites for calling him out for not washing his hands when they weren't murdering children (which is actually WHY he was calling them hypocrites, not the money thing, if you had ACTUALLY read it, which makes me think that you didn't and you're believing some preacher over the word of god again). But he flat out said that Moses was right and they were wrong.

There's no getting around that. That is just what happened. That's no an interpretation, that's what happened.

Again, you don't LIKE it, and I get that. I don't like it either. But you don't have to like it. You don't HAVE to base your parenting on the bible. Because it's WRONG. It says what it says, and it's WRONG. It's not that the "interpretation" is wrong, because I didn't MAKE an "interpretation", I told you what the text said, and you tried to twist it into something completely different.

So... if you believe this book, you just sinned.
I mean, both for twisting scripture and for trying to teach a man about scripture in public. AGAIN.

 

[Tryharder62]

It doesn't matter what you think or what your opinion is. You're doing those mental gymnastics to try to get around the FACT that the bible says it's a sin not to beat your kids. That's annoying.

You don't have to LIKE what the bible says, but this shit where you try to twist the word of god to fit your preconceived narrative is ANNOYING, and also a sin that we were warned against. You HAVE to take it as written. The devil can TWIST scripture to his purpose. You're twisting.

Jesus outright said word for word that Moses was right about beating/killing uppidy kids and they were wrong. Yes, he ALSO said that they were hypocrites for calling him out for not washing his hands when they weren't murdering children (which is actually WHY he was calling them hypocrites, not the money thing, if you had ACTUALLY read it, which makes me think that you didn't and you're believing some preacher over the word of god again). But he flat out said that Moses was right and they were wrong.

There's no getting around that. That is just what happened. That's no an interpretation, that's what happened.

Again, you don't LIKE it, and I get that. I don't like it either. But you don't have to like it. You don't HAVE to base your parenting on the bible. Because it's WRONG. It says what it says, and it's WRONG. It's not that the "interpretation" is wrong, because I didn't MAKE an "interpretation", I told you what the text said, and you tried to twist it into something completely different.

So... if you believe this book, you just sinned.
I mean, both for twisting scripture and for trying to teach a man about scripture in public. AGAIN.

I thought I was sharing my thoughts with an online friend. I find it interesting that you think your opinion is the only correct one or that you alone can tell what the text said. To be truthful, I don't think you like it that I have a brain and make compelling arguments.

 

[CandiCame]

Exactly the way I was growing up with my grandparents. If grandma yelled my name I had to respond immediately and show up in person within count to hundred or so or present detailed report of what where and why exactly I was doing to fail to do just that.

I have been spanked exactly once. I probably was just getting at grips what money is, and grandma was left her pension in plain sight, so I took it and hid in my own place, then refused to admit I did. They freaked out to the point my dad was called in from work in the city and told to spank me. He told he don't want to, but likely should, and we had a good talk about serious shit. I actually don't remember did he in the end, by that point I accept it and I have so fucked up high pain tolerance (probably from having constant bruises from falling off trees and what not) I culd just turn into a piece of wood not feeling anything for the act itself if he followed through with it as I believe he did.

Then a bit later, age seven, I was expected to navigate over two miles across city centre to and from school alone. And there was a guy who cried for her mommy, and girl that had to be dressed, and I was just blinking in disbelief.

Oh I used to get my ass beat pretty regular. I think that's pretty common among old folks- I never stole anything, I just had a mouth on me. You can probably tell by how I speak how little good those whoopings did. You could put me in the hospital and I'd still call you out on your bullshit. It's happened.

Interestingly, my dad never learned that that didn't work. Like 2 days ago he said to me, "You're not gonna disrespect me like that," for... I don't even remember I think I called him a dumbass or something.

And I said, "What the fuck are you basing that on? I've talked to you like this for pert near 30 years. The fuck makes you think that's gonna change now? Dumbass. Look at the past and apply it to the present."

The thing is, that I guess a lot of parents don't understand- the pain = bad thing is operant conditioning. In psychology we know that that doesn't work super well on most children, because children are human people, and operant conditioning just doesn't work very well on humans. It works pretty well on mice and dogs, because different animals have different loci of control.

With an animal like that, they tend to think, "I'm being hurt because I did X"- Ie, "I stepped on a shocky wire" or whatever. Humans, however, develop social awareness at around the age of 3 months. That means that the mindset changes from, "I'm being hurt because I did X" to "I'm being hurt because someone is hurting me." They don't associate the pain with the behavior, but with the person causing the pain.

This is actually super important to human evolution, because that's a lesson that a human HAS to learn. It teaches us things like, "Dogs will bite you" and "predators exist". We HAVE to learn that, or we will straight-up die, back in the day when we were hunter-gatherers. Like we had to absorb that information quickly, as children, that other creatures were sentient with their own thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and can get pissed off and attack. You can see why a human child, who is super frail compared to a puppy, or super slow compared to a mouse, would have to develop this different mindset.

It's aggravating when you have kids though, because from the age of 3 months until around 9-11, NOTHING IS EVER THEIR FUCKING FAULT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T INTERNALIZE SHIT. They'll tell you the REASONS they did horrible shit instead of taking responsibility for it because they straight-up can't. They're not wired to do that. Instead of saying, "I hit my sister because I can't control my emotions" they'll say, "She ran her mouth so she got hit in it. That's just cause and effect is all that is."

Which is... aggravating. Idk why anyone would ever have more than 1 kid because 2 or more people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions for a DECADE sounds like a special kind of hell.

But my point is, that all a kid knows when you hit them is that YOU hit them. They /can't/ figure out that you hit them because of their behavior. They're not wired to do that. You HAVE to sit them down and explain it to them, in depth, using language they can understand, about the cause and effect of what their behavior was and what effect it can have. "You can't run off from me because you'll get kidnapped, and here's the horrible shit that happens to people who get kidnapped." Or "You can't steal all our money because then we will fucking starve, we need that to buy food and electricity. Do you want to go the rest of the month without food, electricity, running water, etc?"

They HAVE to know the effect. Just hitting them won't teach them anything except that you hit them.

They can develop what is called "learned helplessness" which will cause them to stop engaging in the behavior, but it's not because they learned their lesson, it's literally just so they won't get hit. And then what happens is, if we take those two kids as adults, we get two different results. The kid who learned not to steal because stealing will fuck someone else over and human empathy exists, will grow up not to be a thief. The kid who learned not to steal because if someone caught them they'd get their ass beat- learns not to get caught. Kids who get beat for things learn to hide those things, not to change their behavior- because they have no underlying reason to change that behavior. They were treated like a dog, so they learned like a dog- not like a human person.

Also, a lot of the time, they learn that one day they'll get too big to hit. Scared the absolute fucking shit out of my dad the first time he hit me and I hit him back and put his ass on the ground. But for every parent that hits their kid- that day comes. That day comes, and the parent remembers it. Because when you condition someone to think of you as a predator (which is what spanking does because of the evolutionary biology I mentioned earlier) then sometimes when that 'fight or flight' kicks it- it comes up fight. Especially if they learned as a kid that they can't do flight because they have to return to that caregiver. Hitting a kid as a routine punishment is setting yourself up to get your ass beat by a teenager who is younger, stronger, and faster by virtue of BEING a teenager against a middle aged person. This is EXTREMELY common, and is part of the reason that teens in families that use physical punishment are more at risk for behavioral outbursts. Once you put that fucker on the ground, you learn that you can just do that- presumably to anyone who fucks with you.

That's not a good thing for someone who's brain isn't fully milinated to learn. That's a bad lesson to have. Because that often bleeds out into your overall life, not just your family life.

Also... this is just something I find interesting. When your adult authority figures hit you a lot- which is something that happened to me and not you so it's a nice dynamic to explore- you tend to see those kids grow up over-represented in the BDSM community. Just a fun fact. I learned that in therapy. Because it just... being hurt doesn't have a negative connotation after about the 5th time. So your brain thinks that's a normal human interaction and you can't undo it. You have more stamina in a fight, like you can take a punch, and if you go without something that you consider a "normal" human interaction for too long, like if you get away from that abuse but it was there your whole life, then you will crave it the same way you crave conversations and hugs. Because your brain during those formative years doesn't make distinctions between "good" and "bad" interactions, just that those are interactions. It thinks it's normal.

If you're raised by people who scream a lot you get real loud, too. Like not just when you're angry, but you will just be loud in general. You seem more intimidating than you are, just in normal conversation, because your brain thinks that that's how people interact. You have to actively work to remind yourself that you're being too loud, even when you're not emotional at all. You can scare people because you get real into a video game, and then you get to feel like a piece of shit about it.

Idk, hitting your kids really gives them a lot of shit to work through as adults that could have been avoided if you'd just not.

 

[CandiCame]

I thought I was sharing my thoughts with an online friend. I find it interesting that you think your opinion is the only correct one or that you alone can tell what the text said. To be truthful, I don't think you like it that I have a brain and make compelling arguments.

You know you're not making compelling arguments. I'm not sharing an "opinion". Me saying "here is some text" and then displaying that text is a FACT.

You know, I find that pretty often religious people genuinely can't tell the difference between facts and opinions, and that's part of what aggravates me.

The earth is older than 10,000 years. That is a fact.
Populations change and adapt over time in a process known as evolution. That is a fact.
Medical science has saved way more lives than faith healing. That is a fact.
Beating your children fucks them up. That is a fact.
This text says what it says. That is a FACT.

This is not me saying that my opinion is better than yours. This is me stating a FACT and you pretending it's an opinion so that it looks like you're allowed to argue it. That's not how the world works ANYWHERE outside of this particular bran of religious bullshit. And it's very annoying to deal with, because I live in the really real world where objective truth is a thing and I have to apply that objective truth. I have a job where I HAVE to know the difference between a fact and an opinion- so this is a pet peeve of mine.

What a piece of text says isn't something that you can have an opinion on. It's right there to be read. You can have an opinion on whether or not you LIKE it, but not whether or not it EXISTS. Objective reality EXISTS.

 

[CandiCame]

Also, something I didn't bring up about stimulus response associations among humans-

Humans, moreso than other animals, tend to cling to that child-like locus on control being external. That's not always a good thing. You have to MAKE yourself take responsibility for your actions. Like, as an adult, a mature person who KNOWS that sometimes it really is your behavior that caused the negative punishment, that can still be hard to admit because of how our brains are wired. Like that being our default doesn't make it a GOOD mindset, and we do have to be trained to know that.

Like, that's a big part of the reason that courts exist- to determine fault. The mice who step on the shocky wire will think, "Ah shit, I stepped on a shocky wire." The HUMAN who steps on a shocky wire, even as an adult, thinks, "Who the hell left a goddamn live wire out where I could step on it?" and very often lets that thought go even deeper to, "Oh, I can't dig in my own goddamn yard now? People gonna leave live wires out where a bitch can hit them with a shovel? Well fuck the shit out of that, I'm suing the power company."

And then a judge has to step in and figure out if the power company was negligent, or if you were a dumbass. Because sometimes a human person really did just do a dumbass thing, and no amount of "high voltage" signs was gonna stop them or save them from their own dumbassery. But those are calls that we have to make because of how human brains are wired.

I'm not competent enough to make that call, I just wanted to point out that it's not just kids who think, "I'm being hurt because of an external cause" by default instead of "I'm being hurt because of my behavior." The default human mindset is "This is happening because of external factors, it's not my fault." Even adults have to catch themselves after that first thought and admit, "I probably shouldn't be out here digging without having done any research about where lines are buried. This one might be on me. My bad."

Like... I smoke. When I get cancer, it can be argued that that is big tobacco's fault. But I'm the person who's out here buying a product that has a fucking warning label on it that says, "This product, if used as directed, will cause a slow painful death, you absolute dumbass. Probably don't smoke it. Oh, you wanna do it anyway. Thanks, we need the money, but you're dumb as hell."

So like... that psychological constant isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. It just is a thing. Sometimes it helps you not get eaten by wildcats and sometimes it helps you make frivolous lawsuits. It just is.

 

[Tryharder62]

You know you're not making compelling arguments. I'm not sharing an "opinion". Me saying "here is some text" and then displaying that text is a FACT.

You know, I find that pretty often religious people genuinely can't tell the difference between facts and opinions, and that's part of what aggravates me.

The earth is older than 10,000 years. That is a fact.
Populations change and adapt over time in a process known as evolution. That is a fact.
Medical science has saved way more lives than faith healing. That is a fact.
Beating your children fucks them up. That is a fact.
This text says what it says. That is a FACT.

This is not me saying that my opinion is better than yours. This is me stating a FACT and you pretending it's an opinion so that it looks like you're allowed to argue it. That's not how the world works ANYWHERE outside of this particular bran of religious bullshit. And it's very annoying to deal with, because I live in the really real world where objective truth is a thing and I have to apply that objective truth. I have a job where I HAVE to know the difference between a fact and an opinion- so this is a pet peeve of mine.

What a piece of text says isn't something that you can have an opinion on. It's right there to be read. You can have an opinion on whether or not you LIKE it, but not whether or not it EXISTS. Objective reality EXISTS.

I think you are reading the bible through the lens of your experience with being beat. I am sorry that you had to endure that.

 

[CandiCame]

I think you are reading the bible through the lens of your experience with being beat. I am sorry that you had to endure that.

Again, you can think whatever you want and it won't change the text. Trying to give me some underlying motive so you can make facts my "opinion" as if I've put some kind of spin on it will not make it true.

The thing about the truth, about real facts- and I think this might be why religious people have a hard time with this-

Is that it genuinely does not matter how hard you believe, or if you believe. What you think and feel and believe is completely irreverent to ACTUAL truth. If you and I both died right now- or if neither of us had ever existed- this book would still be here, and it would still say the same exact thing. It would still say that people needed to beat their kids.

Whether or not you believed it said that wouldn't un-write it. That's not how that works. You can believe that I'm making it up because my dad was a dipshit all day long, and it won't rewrite the bible. It will still say the same thing- whether I had ever shown you what it said or not. It does not require your belief to be true.

Likewise, the things I said about child abuse would still be true. Me having experience in that field doesn't make it true- in fact, it would open me up to the experience over evidence logical fallacy- because longitudinal reports DO require knowledge of statistical design and analysis to review and interpret. I'm LESS qualified to research it without confronting my innate bias.

Which is why I paid a shitton of money to go to school and /learn/ how to confront innate bias in research design, analysis, review, and critique. I had to learn how to do that because I /know/ that experience over evidence bias is a thing. I would be willing to go before any peer review program in the country, any internal review board, and prove to you that I can fucking read a book without my experience clouding my judgement.

I ought to be able to. I paid something like $30,000 for the privilege. I actually had to look at that a few minutes ago. I like to do periodic budgetary reviews on my personal finance when I'm real good and pissed off. And I'm real good and pissed off right now. Not about this- mostly about the election but also some stuff in meatspace that doesn't really matter but I didn't need it while I was already pissed about the election.

Edit: Also, I don't think that logically fallacy would apply here. I wasn't whooped because Jesus, I don't think. I don't know what my dad's religious views are. I never talked to him about it because I try not to talk to him, whatwith him being an asshole. If I had to guess I think he might think aliens? Like he's on that ancient alien shit? He probably thinks aliens wrote the bible. Lord knows he thinks they built the pyramids.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

A distaste for spanking is anti-Christian? According to what, the Gospel of Saint de Sade?

It's anti Biblical.

Pr 22:15 ¶ Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 29:15 ¶ The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

 

[Tryharder62]

Again, you can think whatever you want and it won't change the text. Trying to give me some underlying motive so you can make facts my "opinion" as if I've put some kind of spin on it will not make it true.

The thing about the truth, about real facts- and I think this might be why religious people have a hard time with this-

Is that it genuinely does not matter how hard you believe, or if you believe. What you think and feel and believe is completely irreverent to ACTUAL truth. If you and I both died right now- or if neither of us had ever existed- this book would still be here, and it would still say the same exact thing. It would still say that people needed to beat their kids.

Whether or not you believed it said that wouldn't un-write it. That's not how that works. You can believe that I'm making it up because my dad was a dipshit all day long, and it won't rewrite the bible. It will still say the same thing- whether I had ever shown you what it said or not. It does not require your belief to be true.

Likewise, the things I said about child abuse would still be true. Me having experience in that field doesn't make it true- in fact, it would open me up to the experience over evidence logical fallacy- because longitudinal reports DO require knowledge of statistical design and analysis to review and interpret. I'm LESS qualified to research it without confronting my innate bias.

Which is why I paid a shitton of money to go to school and /learn/ how to confront innate bias in research design, analysis, review, and critique. I had to learn how to do that because I /know/ that experience over evidence bias is a thing. I would be willing to go before any peer review program in the country, any internal review board, and prove to you that I can fucking read a book without my experience clouding my judgement.

I ought to be able to. I paid something like $30,000 for the privilege. I actually had to look at that a few minutes ago. I like to do periodic budgetary reviews on my personal finance when I'm real good and pissed off. And I'm real good and pissed off right now. Not about this- mostly about the election but also some stuff in meatspace that doesn't really matter but I didn't need it while I was already pissed about the election.

Edit: Also, I don't think that logically fallacy would apply here. I wasn't whooped because Jesus, I don't think. I don't know what my dad's religious views are. I never talked to him about it because I try not to talk to him, whatwith him being an asshole. If I had to guess I think he might think aliens? Like he's on that ancient alien shit? He probably thinks aliens wrote the bible. Lord knows he thinks they built the pyramids.

I think it is dangerous to look at a sentence without knowing the context in which it was said and the history of the time. For example:

Candicame is sick. Might it mean not feeling well?

Candicame is sick. In my youth it meant you were a perv.

Candicame is sick. To my son it means that you are awesome and great! I agree.

You probably have seen many movie trailers with reviews. Look at these 2 sentences.

1. This has been the best play I've seen all year! Of course, it is the only play I've seen all year.

2. This was a fantastic movie, as long as you aren't looking for plot or character development.

You can bet the sentences you will see in the review are "This has been the best play I have seen all year" and "This was a fantastic." Both examples of quoting a sentence but not keeping it in context. If you look at them alone, you won't find what the reviewer really meant unless you read on.

https://www.bulldogsworld.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/166x166/french_bulldog-breed.jpg Sincerely, Tryharder62.

 

[CandiCame]

I think it is dangerous to look at a sentence without knowing the context in which it was said and the history of the time. For example:

Candicame is sick. Might it mean not feeling well?

Candicame is sick. In my youth it meant you were a perv.

Candicame is sick. To my son it means that you are awesome and great! I agree.

You probably have seen many movie trailers with reviews. Look at these 2 sentences.

1. This has been the best play I've seen all year! Of course, it is the only play I've seen all year.

2. This was a fantastic movie, as long as you aren't looking for plot or character development.

You can bet the sentences you will see in the review are "This has been the best play I have seen all year" and "This was a fantastic." Both examples of quoting a sentence but not keeping it in context. If you look at them alone, you won't find what the reviewer really meant unless you read on.

https://www.bulldogsworld.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/166x166/french_bulldog-breed.jpg Sincerely, Tryharder62.

I DID look at the context. I presented the context. Context doesn't matter to you, twisting the words of the lord to fit your agenda does. I was the one who explained the importance of context to YOU, because you like to do what you did here a LOT- pick out one or two quotes and then try to twist them WITHOUT context.

I've even come out and talked about translation inaccuracies or controversies. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. Biblical scholars AGREE that you're SUPPOSED to beat your children. This isn't controversial. The only people who try to pretend this isn't a thing are CONTEMPORARY Christians looking for a reason not to abuse their kids. They come in with a preconceived agenda.

What I've done, and what the scholars are doing, is looking at the text objectively and asking, "What does this say?"

You went in thinking, "I don't want god to have told me to beat my kids, because beating your kids is bad and I don't want to do it. How do I look at this text through the lense I already have- how do I make it fit my preconceived agenda?"

And you can do that- when you isolate passages and try to pretend you have the HUBRIS to know what any god "really means". But that's unChristian. You're not allowed to do that and also be Christian. The bible SPECIFICALLY warns about twisting the scripture.

Other Christians will call you out on this. They'll tell you that you don't love your kids, that you're spoiling them. I don't believe that, but your god does. There's no getting around that- again, no matter what you "believe".

The text says what it says. And it says it a LOT.

Even if you found a way to explain away the few passages that I or xfrodobagginsx listed, you'll still have a SHITTON more to get through. You'll have to rewrite the whole damn book.

 

[Tryharder62]

I DID look at the context. I presented the context. Context doesn't matter to you, twisting the words of the lord to fit your agenda does. I was the one who explained the importance of context to YOU, because you like to do what you did here a LOT- pick out one or two quotes and then try to twist them WITHOUT context.

I've even come out and talked about translation inaccuracies or controversies. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. Biblical scholars AGREE that you're SUPPOSED to beat your children. This isn't controversial. The only people who try to pretend this isn't a thing are CONTEMPORARY Christians looking for a reason not to abuse their kids. They come in with a preconceived agenda.

What I've done, and what the scholars are doing, is looking at the text objectively and asking, "What does this say?"

You went in thinking, "I don't want god to have told me to beat my kids, because beating your kids is bad and I don't want to do it. How do I look at this text through the lense I already have- how do I make it fit my preconceived agenda?"

And you can do that- when you isolate passages and try to pretend you have the HUBRIS to know what any god "really means". But that's unChristian. You're not allowed to do that and also be Christian. The bible SPECIFICALLY warns about twisting the scripture.

Other Christians will call you out on this. They'll tell you that you don't love your kids, that you're spoiling them. I don't believe that, but your god does. There's no getting around that- again, no matter what you "believe".

The text says what it says. And it says it a LOT.

Even if you found a way to explain away the few passages that I or xfrodobagginsx listed, you'll still have a SHITTON more to get through. You'll have to rewrite the whole damn book.

I have already acknowledged that I would not do things the same way God did in the Old Testament. Did people have hardened hearts and need it? I don't know. Believe it or not I am not that old and I wasn't there.

The thing you are not wanting to look at is the Doctrine of Grace. It did change things. Jesus does refer to things in the Old testament but it is usually followed by the words "but I say......."

GRACE
Romans 3:20-24 New International Version (NIV)
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith Romans 3:20-24
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

What is the old hymn.....Jesus paid it all...all to him I owe.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Now when I open this thread, I just can't stop thinking about Donald Trump getting whacked with a magazine.

Whacked with a magazine?