How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[CandiCame]

Seriously? I wouldn't give my sons up for you either. You have to remember Jesus, God and the Holy spirit are one. He actually took the punishment for our wrong doings. He didn't torture anyone....humans did. My son once took the blame for something my other son did. He loved him that much. Think of how much God loves us to take that burden from all of us.

I misunderstood your question earlier or I never would have joked about it.

Either Jesus is a demigod who did have a human mother and lived as a human- as the bible says he himself claimed, who did have powers from his divine father, but was a separate entity with his own thoughts, consciousness, soul, and sentience- who doubted his father and cried on the mountain because he was afraid and unsure that his sacrifice would do anything- again this is what the BIBLE claims-

OR he was simply a manifestation of god, complete with ALL the god powers and omnipotence, as some Christians claim (but this doesn't have biblical backing besides some things Jesus said about being a demigod and CONNECTED to his dad that King James had his translators go a little wonky with).

If the first one is true, then God is someone who had his own child tortured to prove a point. God knew Jesus's god DNA from his father would allow him to regenerate in a few days- but no one else did. Not Jesus himself, who cried about his death. Not Jesus's mom and God's side bitch, Mary, who was forced into a pregnancy around her coming of age ceremony and could not have been more than 14 when she bore that child if you do the math, not his cousin Mary who was just as freaked out as everyone else, even though by all accounts they were so close that they grew up together and were practically siblings from how much time they spent at each other's houses and the way Jesus referred to her by familial nicknames in the original Hebrew- not Jesus's closest friends and confidants. No one knew for sure he would be resurrected. They knew he could BRING people back from the dead, knew that he had boughts of psychic energy that he couldn't control as a kid and struggled with as an adult, knew he could transfigure physical things- but no one knew how far those powers would carry, because no one thought he was an actual god- they all thought he was a demigod, which is all any of them ever claimed. Read the book.

The reason that this is a powerful story is because Jesus WASN'T a god. He was a demigod- he had a human family and lived as a human person. He had a teenage mother who worked her ass off to put him through school. He had friends. He had family. He was a person. The Christians who strip him of that don't understand the story any more than they understand the story about David. It wasn't a sacrifice for GOD, it was a sacrifice for Jesus- and it was sure as shit a sacrifice for MARY- who had her whole life turned upside down over that pregnancy and could very well have been killed for it. Who had to flee as a refuge with her newborn son to escape a tyrant who wanted her son dead. Who had to spend 34 years loving a son she could not understand, raising him the best that she could, trying to do what was best for him- only to watch him be tortured and die with NO idea that he would come back.

If Christians are to be believed and this is a history book, not a book of legends- then Mary is the one who made the sacrifice. God is the one who got her pregnant and absconded, until he came back and tortured her child for reasons that he never adequately explained, with promises that he's never followed through on. Christians say that if we wait long enough, he will follow through, but the bible has a timeline- and it has not been met. Jesus spoke as if his prophecies would be fulfilled within John's lifetime when he talks to him- and I don't think Jesus was lying because he's not that kind of guy. I think his dad told him that and he just repeated it.

If, however, we take the position that some Christians do, and again, there's no reason to, because it's not in the bible, that Jesus is LITERALLY just god in human form- that makes the whole thing bullshit. That means that he tortured Mary and her family for no reason- god can take a mortal form at any time and walk among humans. He did it in the garden of Eden, and to speak to Moses. And probably a bunch of other times that I'm forgetting. There's no reason he couldn't have just done that. It means that there never was an sacrifice, because god is eternal, and cannot be killed on the mortal realm- so all he did was take a three day nap then get up and leave after dinner. If Jesus is literally god, then none of it means anything- it was all just a cosmic prank.

Having said all of that- none of what you said has anything to do with Heaven being a torturous hellscape. Giving up your child to someone who would torment them is not a brave act. It's not something a good parent does. It's not like one kid taking the blame for another because they don't want to see them get in trouble- that is the OPPOSITE of Heaven. THAT would actually be a kinder god, if still a douche. If he'd let me trade places with her and take that pain for her, it would be one thing. But according to Christians, not only could I NOT do that in Heaven- I wouldn't WANT to. I would be so different from what I am now that I would become a cold, emotionless robot, unable to feel anything except love for the person who was torturing my daughter.

You can joke about it all you want- because I don't believe any of this. It's no skin off my back. But if you do- if you think all this is real? That's fucked right up to defend. That's not an incentive to me to try to get on this guy's good side. Because I'm NOT god-fearing, and I wouldn't be if I believed in him. There's only so far you can push someone with fear. There HAS to be a positive reward if you want someone to actually care about you. And god's never done that.

Jesus didn't die for ME. Even by your own logic, he didn't. Because if there was an actual, just god, he wouldn't need to be tortured to get me to convert. I would behave, according to my nature, as god made me, and that would be enough. I won't be blamed for the flaws in his system. If he wants to curse me for something my parents did, for example, that would require me to be "saved" from "original sin" because some bitch I didn't know believed a serpent over him- you know, fuck that guy. Fuck someone who does that. Especially because if we read the book, the serpent was the one telling the truth, not god. God was the one who said that the fruit was poisonous- the serpent was the one who said it would give knowledge of good & evil.

And what did it do? It allowed the invention of the field of fashion design because apparently it caused you to not want to walk around with your dick out. If we accept that modesty is good and nudity is bad (as it was presented in the story) then the serpent was RIGHT.

Hell, why even put the tree in there? The fuck was the point of that, besides fucking with people?

If your god exists- it's an evil entity with a good spin team.

Humans are perfectly capable of torture- but we're mortal. The worst we can do is kill you. God, as an immortal omnipowerful, omnipresent being, SHOULD be held to a higher standard of compassion- in the same way that a human person who lives for 80 years is held to a higher standard than a dog who lives for 20. In the same way that we say, "Don't pull that dog's tail or you'll get bit." God should know how to care for humans. But he doesn't. He fucks with us. In the same way that people who abuse dogs fuck with them. But according to Christians, there's no ASCPA for us to call on God. We HAVE to appease the abuser, to be broken like an abused dog, or suffer and watch our children suffer. God doesn't care about his kids, but he knows that we do. Which might be why generational curses are a thing. That's the most cruel form of abuse he can think of, and therefore the one he does.

All of this was written to keep people in line, back in the day. There's no evidence that any of it is real. Which is much easier to deal with. But on the off chance that I'm wrong, I can rest assured that if the afterlife that modern Christians present exists- I'll be in Hell where I still have a fighting chance. Hell's never described in-depth in the bible, it's all second-hand sources. So if there's fire and brimstone and several layers and demons with dominion over certain layers and all that- then people can claw their way out like Jack. Hell has hope. Hell is believable.

Heaven is the worst possible thing that a human being can imagine. Heaven is a complete absence of humanity. Heaven is a mockery of happiness earned by exchanging your capacity for real happiness, love, and empathy.

 

[CandiCame]

I am not getting the piece of paper reference. I don't think we should torture anyone.

A marriage certificate. My parents weren't married when I was conceived and I don't think when I was born. My mamaw had a LOT to say about it the whole time I was growing up- and she's right. It's right there in the book. I'm not a sinner, I'm a sin. I CAN'T be redeemed, according to the bible, and my family is cursed for 10 generations. I think I already linked the passage that explains that. There's nothing I can do about it, because I was cursed by god.

You don't think we should torture anyone, but your god is willing to torture me for all eternity for something my dad did. That's literally how it's phrased. His sin was cumming inside someone he wasn't married to, and it cursed ME right along with him, because that's how god rolls. Not just me, but my kids, my grandkids, for TEN generations.

So I don't need to worry about this Heaven shit anyway. But modern Christians like to pick and choose what parts of the bible they think are "real", so a lot of them just defy god and bring me right in the churchhouse, in mockery to him. Try to get me baptized and shit.

People ignoring this is a REALLY new thing, btw. This used to be HUGE. Whole communities would shun you if you were born out of wedlock, because it literally says that you're cursed and people totally believed it. Remember in the Scarlet Letter when people would not touch that kid because they were afraid that even touching her would get her cursed? And it was a big huge deal because the preacher let her touch him (he was the baby daddy. Spoiler alert for the book everybody had to read in high school.)

 

[Super-Surprise]

https://vimeo.com/226640440

https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/img/crop/posters/jim-warren-stairway-to-heaven_a-G-8059767-0.jpg

https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp3103421.jpg

 

[Super-Surprise]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_Codf29Pw

https://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/You+shall+not+pass_fb0b21_4308702.gif https://media1.tenor.com/images/53da477ee2e3ecc9b45fe9a073267d99/tenor.gif?itemid=7384839

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s.plague.io/upload/2015-04-22/12ec7745-7cab-49eb-8705-b05eef97258f.gif

 

[CandiCame]

I think you are confused about 1 Corinthians 7:14. That is simply a verse about believers who marry unbelievers staying together so the child can be exposed to Christianity.

Luke 18:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
The Little Children and Jesus
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Mathew 18:3
New International Version
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Babies and children go to heaven until the time they can formally make up thier own mind is my belief. We all get to choose!

That's not what either of those things mean. Read the book, don't just pull lines from it at random. That's super disrespectful to the canonization team who spent their LIVES preserving the history of their people. It's a history book of god's chosen people, meant to be read as a book, not to be flipped through like an US Weekly.

In the first instance, people were trying to keep their kids out, because Jesus was giving a sermon, and they were running around, screaming, doing basic loud annoying kid shit. Jesus said to leave them alone, because 1: They NEEDED to hear the sermon (so literally the exact opposite of what you think it means) and 2: He was a chill dude who was cool with them being kids.

In the second instance, this was part of a whole big thing about taxes- and yhall know how goddamn excited I get about taxes. See, tax time had rolled around, and the desciples were all, "We ought not have to pay this, because it's being collected by the church, and you're the son of god, so like, it should be going to you anyway."

And Jesus was like, "Dude even I have to pay taxes. Death and taxes, am I right? Tell you what though, I'll miracle us up the money with my god powers. Go fishing and the first fish you catch will have money inside of it. Because that's how I roll."

Then they did and they came back all, "WHAT THE SHIT, DUDE!?"

Then Jesus grabbed some random kid out of the crowd and was like, "Hey, random kid, do you have to pay taxes and shit or do you think that you're better than other people?"

The kid was all, "I'm not better than other people. Bitch, I'm like 5."

Then Jesus was like, "See? Kids are cool. Kids don't know nepotism unless you teach it them. Be like kids if you want to go to Heaven."

And the disciples were like, "Yeah, fair enough. Everybody is equal, we get it. It's your same brand of bullshit that you're always on."

Again, Jesus never claimed that original sin wasn't a thing, or that kids weren't sinners from the day they were born who require baptism. He wouldn't- his cousin he grew up with did baptisms. It was his whole thing. They called him "The baptist".

Like... read the book, don't just quote shit with no context and assign meaning to it. The bible literally warns against doing that.

 

[Tryharder62]

A marriage certificate. My parents weren't married when I was conceived and I don't think when I was born. My mamaw had a LOT to say about it the whole time I was growing up- and she's right. It's right there in the book. I'm not a sinner, I'm a sin. I CAN'T be redeemed, according to the bible, and my family is cursed for 10 generations. I think I already linked the passage that explains that. There's nothing I can do about it, because I was cursed by god.

You don't think we should torture anyone, but your god is willing to torture me for all eternity for something my dad did. That's literally how it's phrased. His sin was cumming inside someone he wasn't married to, and it cursed ME right along with him, because that's how god rolls. Not just me, but my kids, my grandkids, for TEN generations.

So I don't need to worry about this Heaven shit anyway. But modern Christians like to pick and choose what parts of the bible they think are "real", so a lot of them just defy god and bring me right in the churchhouse, in mockery to him. Try to get me baptized and shit.

People ignoring this is a REALLY new thing, btw. This used to be HUGE. Whole communities would shun you if you were born out of wedlock, because it literally says that you're cursed and people totally believed it. Remember in the Scarlet Letter when people would not touch that kid because they were afraid that even touching her would get her cursed? And it was a big huge deal because the preacher let her touch him (he was the baby daddy. Spoiler alert for the book everybody had to read in high school.)

You had a church early in life. I enjoyed what you said on the Song thread:

My favorite Sunday School Song was the one that goes:

"The foolish man built his house upon the sand" with the hand motions and shit. I loved the hell out of that when I was like 5. I liked songs that had motions- like Little Bunny Foo Foo.


This song.

The rains came down and the floods came up
The rains came down and the floods came up

Edit: I tended to SMASH them all though. I LIKE TO SMASH.

I mean no disrespect but your mamaw was wrong. The verse she probably showed you was Deuteronomy 23:2.

I saw this story of a pastor who was asked pretty much what you talked about:

Jesus’ lineage and birth prove that God does not reject the illegitimately born. Matthew names five illegitimate children in Jesus’ line (Mt. 1:1-17) and Hebrews mentions another who figures significantly (11:32). And though Joseph adopted Jesus as his son to provide a protective covering for him and his mother (Mt. 1:20-25), it did not prevent his enemies from attacking his heritage (Mk. 6:1-3).

Jesus ultimately answered this question of legitimacy and acceptance with God in a tense exchange with the Jewish religious leaders. In short, he said that the only illegitimate child is one who does not love Jesus (Jn 8:41-43).

If I have the chance to speak with my parishioner’s heartbroken inquirer who is shamed by the nature of her biological birth I will say just this, “One obscure verse in the ceremonial law must not blind you to God who has introduced you to his love through his representatives and who longs to lavish his love on you through Jesus Christ who will call you his child and invite you to call him,‘Abba, Father.’”

A person’s relationship with God is entirely dependent on his or her own actions. (Jeremiah 31:29-30 and Philippians 2:12.)

I think the story of the Scarlet letter simply shows that what we do - does have consequences that could affect our children. What happened there again was on them not God.

If you wanted God you would not be turned away, but that is up to you!

 

[Tryharder62]

That's not what either of those things mean. Read the book, don't just pull lines from it at random. That's super disrespectful to the canonization team who spent their LIVES preserving the history of their people. It's a history book of god's chosen people, meant to be read as a book, not to be flipped through like an US Weekly.

In the first instance, people were trying to keep their kids out, because Jesus was giving a sermon, and they were running around, screaming, doing basic loud annoying kid shit. Jesus said to leave them alone, because 1: They NEEDED to hear the sermon (so literally the exact opposite of what you think it means) and 2: He was a chill dude who was cool with them being kids.

In the second instance, this was part of a whole big thing about taxes- and yhall know how goddamn excited I get about taxes. See, tax time had rolled around, and the desciples were all, "We ought not have to pay this, because it's being collected by the church, and you're the son of god, so like, it should be going to you anyway."

And Jesus was like, "Dude even I have to pay taxes. Death and taxes, am I right? Tell you what though, I'll miracle us up the money with my god powers. Go fishing and the first fish you catch will have money inside of it. Because that's how I roll."

Then they did and they came back all, "WHAT THE SHIT, DUDE!?"

Then Jesus grabbed some random kid out of the crowd and was like, "Hey, random kid, do you have to pay taxes and shit or do you think that you're better than other people?"

The kid was all, "I'm not better than other people. Bitch, I'm like 5."

Then Jesus was like, "See? Kids are cool. Kids don't know nepotism unless you teach it them. Be like kids if you want to go to Heaven."

And the disciples were like, "Yeah, fair enough. Everybody is equal, we get it. It's your same brand of bullshit that you're always on."

Again, Jesus never claimed that original sin wasn't a thing, or that kids weren't sinners from the day they were born who require baptism. He wouldn't- his cousin he grew up with did baptisms. It was his whole thing. They called him "The baptist".

Like... read the book, don't just quote shit with no context and assign meaning to it. The bible literally warns against doing that.

I did read the book, thank you! I just disagree with you.

 

[Led_Astray]

I did read the book, thank you! I just disagree with you.

And therein lies the biggest problem with the bible. It literally contradicts itself dozens of times. The versus Candicame quotes vis illegitimacy are definitely in there. The versus you quote are definitely in there. Yet they are polar opposites when it comes to whether Candicame could go to heaven (even if he wanted to)

So how the heck is anyone supposed to know what to do? I mean, there are a heck of a lot of rules in there that modern Christians utterly ignore, but how do they know they are ignoring the right ones? Which, of course, is why we have so many different denominations of Christianity. When a Catholic sincerely tells you one thing, and a Methodist sincerely tells you another, how is anybody supposed to get it right?

Answer - they don't, they just pick and choose whichever ones let them do what they wanted to do anyway.

It's almost as if it isn't the word of god at all, but stuff written down by random guys to fit whatever political climate they happen to be living in at the time.

 

[Tryharder62]

And therein lies the biggest problem with the bible. It literally contradicts itself dozens of times. The versus Candicame quotes vis illegitimacy are definitely in there. The versus you quote are definitely in there. Yet they are polar opposites when it comes to whether Candicame could go to heaven (even if he wanted to)

So how the heck is anyone supposed to know what to do? I mean, there are a heck of a lot of rules in there that modern Christians utterly ignore, but how do they know they are ignoring the right ones? Which, of course, is why we have so many different denominations of Christianity. When a Catholic sincerely tells you one thing, and a Methodist sincerely tells you another, how is anybody supposed to get it right?

Answer - they don't, they just pick and choose whichever ones let them do what they wanted to do anyway.

It's almost as if it isn't the word of god at all, but stuff written down by random guys to fit whatever political climate they happen to be living in at the time.

This is the point that drives me absolutely nuts. If you look at this whole thread it is complaints about verses in the Old Testament. Yes, they show the history of the time. For example the verse I told Candi about Deuteronomy 23:2. The Israelites had just come out of the desert. They had hardened hearts and were just in it for the physical. They were horn dogs. At that time children who were lllegitimate could not take part in governing Israel or mainstream society. What this verse is saying is quit screwing around or it will affect your children, and it did.

I am not the one picking and choosing. The Bible is a flow of history. The plan has always been victory with Jesus. Unfortunately people aren't taking the answer and therefore it still affects children today. Whether you want to admit it or not Jesus changed the course of history. Try reading the whole book.

 

[Led_Astray]

The Bible is a flow of history. The plan has always been victory with Jesus. Unfortunately people aren't taking the answer and therefore it still affects children today. Whether you want to admit it or not Jesus changed the course of history. Try reading the whole book.

I did.

That's what made me an atheist.

But honestly? if it was as clear-cut as you pretend it is, there wouldn't be multiple denominations, would there? And yet there are. How "lucky" for you that the *particular* version of faith that you have is the right one, and not the one followed by that church down the road.

Or to borrow the same sentiment from Tim Minchin:

Now I understand how prayer can work:
A particular prayer in a particular church
In a particular style with particular stuff
And for particular problems that aren't particularly tough,
And for particular people, preferably white
And for particular senses, preferably sight
A particular prayer in a particular spot
To a particular version of a particular god

And if you get that right, he just might
Take a break from giving babies malaria
And pop down to your local area
To fix the cataracts of your mum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo&feature=youtu.be&t=254

 

[Kirkrapine]

Salvation comes by placing your FAITH in Jesus Christ and BELIEVING in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins.

That would be an awfully fucked up way to run a universe, wouldn't it?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Go push your CatLicker crap elsewhere. IF you actually KNOW scripture, the ONLY man that is currently alive and IN Heaven is Jesus.

Read 1st Thessalonians 4, ALL that have died are currently in "sheol", in English that means "grevedom".

NO ONE, not even King David nor Abraham are alive today.

Even water Baptism does NOTHING! There is another Baptism, the baptism of "PNEUMA HAGION". That is the only baptism that will save.

Christians Do go to heaven:
Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
*2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.(KJV)
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.*22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.*23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:*24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
People in heaven:
*Re 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:(KJV)
Jesus Christ is going to rule and reign on the earth.* The believers will be with Him on the earth at that time.* Right now believer's go to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ because that is where He is.*

 

[Kirkrapine]

" God moves in extremely mysterious, not to say, circuitous ways. God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players*, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
Footnote to above: * ie., everybody."

-- Good Omens, Terry Pratchett & Neal Gaiman

 

[Tryharder62]

I did.

That's what made me an atheist.

But honestly? if it was as clear-cut as you pretend it is, there wouldn't be multiple denominations, would there? And yet there are. How "lucky" for you that the *particular* version of faith that you have is the right one, and not the one followed by that church down the road.

Or to borrow the same sentiment from Tim Minchin:

Now I understand how prayer can work:
A particular prayer in a particular church
In a particular style with particular stuff
And for particular problems that aren't particularly tough,
And for particular people, preferably white
And for particular senses, preferably sight
A particular prayer in a particular spot
To a particular version of a particular god

And if you get that right, he just might
Take a break from giving babies malaria
And pop down to your local area
To fix the cataracts of your mum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo&feature=youtu.be&t=254

Isn't it interesting that I don't need to make fun of your beliefs in order to discuss mine. I choose to testify to love with every breath I take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWYn2k4IaPY

 

[CandiCame]

You had a church early in life. I enjoyed what you said on the Song thread:


I mean no disrespect but your mamaw was wrong. The verse she probably showed you was Deuteronomy 23:2.

I saw this story of a pastor who was asked pretty much what you talked about:

Jesus’ lineage and birth prove that God does not reject the illegitimately born. Matthew names five illegitimate children in Jesus’ line (Mt. 1:1-17) and Hebrews mentions another who figures significantly (11:32). And though Joseph adopted Jesus as his son to provide a protective covering for him and his mother (Mt. 1:20-25), it did not prevent his enemies from attacking his heritage (Mk. 6:1-3).

Jesus ultimately answered this question of legitimacy and acceptance with God in a tense exchange with the Jewish religious leaders. In short, he said that the only illegitimate child is one who does not love Jesus (Jn 8:41-43).

If I have the chance to speak with my parishioner’s heartbroken inquirer who is shamed by the nature of her biological birth I will say just this, “One obscure verse in the ceremonial law must not blind you to God who has introduced you to his love through his representatives and who longs to lavish his love on you through Jesus Christ who will call you his child and invite you to call him,‘Abba, Father.’”

A person’s relationship with God is entirely dependent on his or her own actions. (Jeremiah 31:29-30 and Philippians 2:12.)

I think the story of the Scarlet letter simply shows that what we do - does have consequences that could affect our children. What happened there again was on them not God.

If you wanted God you would not be turned away, but that is up to you!

There's a lot to unpack here, but let me just say this-

I have forgotten more about the bible than you'll ever know. I didn't just have "a church" in my early life. I'm a straight-up biblical scholar with the credentials to prove it. I lead youth groups, I teach Sunday school, I've been reading the bible without exaggeration since I was FOUR. I'm a licensed preacher- which is probably something not a lot of people on here know about me because I don't normally get into religion on here. You're a convert- you've talked about it before.

You came into this darkness. I was born in it.

Which, interestingly, is the case for a lot of atheists. Because the more you study scripture, the more you're able to see the bullshit. The more you study the bible as literature, the more able you are to see the parables that are being taught, that "needed" to be taught to the contemporary audience.

I've read this book over and over and over- I've memorized huge parts of it. Which is why I tell story summaries and you quote random bits with no context. Because you don't KNOW the context. You ask a preacher and believe them instead of reading it yourself. Which is a huge part of what makes religion dangerous. The way you speak, no one would ever believe you had actually read the bible- when you try to spin things like stories about taxes to make them into an abolishment of original sin- that's literally something the bible itself speaks of as being the work of the devil.

This conversation is not you trying to teach me something. You're doing things the bible specifically tells you not to- like believing a preacher over scripture, picking & choosing what parts you want to obey, twisting the lord's words to suit your own means, and being a moral who has the HUBRIS to pretend to know the mind of a god.

My mamaw never showed me an out-of-context verse. My mamaw is significantly closer to the lord than you or the preacher you're quoting BECAUSE she doesn't change the word of god to suite her whims. She's certainly not perfect and we have our differences, but she wasn't wrong about THIS. You are. This is one of those things that the bible does not contradict itself on- children can sin, children inherit original sin and the sins of their parents or ancestors, and they will not get into heaven without redemption. That's why people are out here baptizing kids as soon as they get them out of the hospital. There's no verse in the bible that states otherwise, and if your preacher tells you that there is- that preacher lied and is a false prophet, as warned about in the bible.

There are a lot of those these days- also as warned about in the bible. Anyone who offers answers and specific verses instead of telling you to read scripture- ALL scripture- is a false prophet who is twisting the word of god. Read the book.

There are a LOT of contradictions in the bible, but that isn't one of them. God does absolutely murder and torture children. From a Christian perspective, children have to be "trained up" to be god-fearing, because from the day you're conceived until the day you die, you are being judged.

All children are born in sin- because they inherit original sin and must repent. SOME children, like me and mine, are born A SIN- that is, born cursed. Some sins cannot be cleansed. We all know the big 7- but if you are cursed by god, like, say, you only exist because a sin was committed, then you, as a mortal, cannot undo that curse, no matter how hard you try. There are some verses that say you can throw yourself upon the mercy of god- but I wouldn't hold my breath, knowing what I know about him and his complete lack of mercy.

Your preacher seems to think that just because someone was in the line of Abraham, that means that they CAN'T be cursed by god, just because they're kin to Jesus. There's no evidence whatsoever for that. None of the scripture he quotes back it up when looked at in context. In fact, some of it directly contradicts what he's saying here- like David's generational curse and the restructuring of marriage being proactive rather than retroactive.

If you think this shit is real, do your soul a favor. Stop listening to preachers. Remember that angels come in the shittiest places for mysterious reasons. Be not afraid. Stop listening to false prophets, stop relying on human feelings. Clear your mind completely, sit down, and read the book. As a book.

Don't flip through it like a magazine looking to validate the beliefs you already have. Don't go into with a "Christian" mindset applying preconceived meanings. Go into it like a little kid who has never heard of the CONCEPT of religion. Read it, in order, and stop and look up the historical context for the time period that you're reading about. Study it, as literature, not with "bible studies" written by fallible humans who try to interpret a god.

This could very well be a mysteriously implanted attempt to save your soul. There's no way for you to know.

 

[CandiCame]

And therein lies the biggest problem with the bible. It literally contradicts itself dozens of times. The versus Candicame quotes vis illegitimacy are definitely in there. The versus you quote are definitely in there. Yet they are polar opposites when it comes to whether Candicame could go to heaven (even if he wanted to)

So how the heck is anyone supposed to know what to do? I mean, there are a heck of a lot of rules in there that modern Christians utterly ignore, but how do they know they are ignoring the right ones? Which, of course, is why we have so many different denominations of Christianity. When a Catholic sincerely tells you one thing, and a Methodist sincerely tells you another, how is anybody supposed to get it right?

Answer - they don't, they just pick and choose whichever ones let them do what they wanted to do anyway.

It's almost as if it isn't the word of god at all, but stuff written down by random guys to fit whatever political climate they happen to be living in at the time.

Ok but that isn't a contradiction. None of the verses she's using say that original sin isn't a thing, or that children can't be cursed, or that generational curses don't exist. That's nowhere in the bible. That's just something that some sects of modern Christianity made up because they didn't want to admit that their god tortured children. There's no verse in the bible that implies children are born without sin.

AND EVEN THE CHURCHES THAT PREACH THAT WILL SAY THAT WE'RE ALL BORN WITH SIN. I've never seen one that doesn't do that.

The actual debate among biblical scholars is whether the generational curse can be broken by deeds. There are a couple of verses that imply, but do not directly state, that Jesus, again, in his capacity as a separate entity from god, thinks that his dad went overboard with the generational curse thing- and that if you live a good life, and follow the teachings of Christ to a T, that when you get to judgement and they're going over your case from the book of life, Jesus might step in as a sort of lawyer and talk to his dad on your behalf and get him to renig on the curse. Because JESUS thinks that it's kind of bullshit.

The bible doesn't say this, but knowing what we know about Jesus, it's pretty obvious why he would think it was bullshit. He was technically an illegitimate child who, under hebrew law, should have been magically aborted. His mother's husband was not his father, and he was conceived out of wedlock.

The bible specifically states that it's the act of cumming inside someone who isn't your wife that creates the sin. That's the adultery- but Jesus himself redefines it as not just the act of sex, protected or unprotected, but just the THOUGHT of sex. So by his logic a LOT more people are guilty of the sin of adultery (and envy & lust). Because he cast his net so wide, it makes sense that he would want to give people an out.

Plus, not to keep harping on this, but Jesus was HALF HUMAN and lived as a human. He knew how hard it was to actually live a pure life. He knew more about humanity than god did- and it was a BIG thing. So he was much more of an advocate for humanity. He wanted to lesson the punishments for a LOT of things, and make redemption a LOT easier. Jesus was the one who wanted to make the new Earth (as opposed to just wiping those who weren't allowed in Heaven out of the book of life). Jesus did a lot of cool shit that tried to temper that old-ass-testament fire & brimstone "worship me or eternal torment" bullshit his dad was on- because he understood humanity and cared about us. Because he was one of us.

This can be, and is SUPPOSED TO BE, a powerful story. A demigod who, unlike demigods of the past, didn't use his heritage for personal gain, but to actually talk to a god and help people with his experience as a person.

It pisses me off when Christians try to take that away from him.

A lot of modern Christians would HATE this guy- the refugee child, the pacifist Jew who believed in non-violent protest AGAINST unjust leaders on a platform of poverty through charity and religious freedom. If he was a real guy who really did inherit immortality and ascend to Heaven where he had to watch these people take a message that he was literally tortured to death for and twist it, contort it until it became the thing he rallied against-

Those folks are gonna be real shocked come the rapture.

 

[Tryharder62]

There's a lot to unpack here, but let me just say this-

I have forgotten more about the bible than you'll ever know. I didn't just have "a church" in my early life. I'm a straight-up biblical scholar with the credentials to prove it. I lead youth groups, I teach Sunday school, I've been reading the bible without exaggeration since I was FOUR. I'm a licensed preacher- which is probably something not a lot of people on here know about me because I don't normally get into religion on here. You're a convert- you've talked about it before.

You came into this darkness. I was born in it.

Which, interestingly, is the case for a lot of atheists. Because the more you study scripture, the more you're able to see the bullshit. The more you study the bible as literature, the more able you are to see the parables that are being taught, that "needed" to be taught to the contemporary audience.

I've read this book over and over and over- I've memorized huge parts of it. Which is why I tell story summaries and you quote random bits with no context. Because you don't KNOW the context. You ask a preacher and believe them instead of reading it yourself. Which is a huge part of what makes religion dangerous. The way you speak, no one would ever believe you had actually read the bible- when you try to spin things like stories about taxes to make them into an abolishment of original sin- that's literally something the bible itself speaks of as being the work of the devil.

This conversation is not you trying to teach me something. You're doing things the bible specifically tells you not to- like believing a preacher over scripture, picking & choosing what parts you want to obey, twisting the lord's words to suit your own means, and being a moral who has the HUBRIS to pretend to know the mind of a god.

My mamaw never showed me an out-of-context verse. My mamaw is significantly closer to the lord than you or the preacher you're quoting BECAUSE she doesn't change the word of god to suite her whims. She's certainly not perfect and we have our differences, but she wasn't wrong about THIS. You are. This is one of those things that the bible does not contradict itself on- children can sin, children inherit original sin and the sins of their parents or ancestors, and they will not get into heaven without redemption. That's why people are out here baptizing kids as soon as they get them out of the hospital. There's no verse in the bible that states otherwise, and if your preacher tells you that there is- that preacher lied and is a false prophet, as warned about in the bible.

There are a lot of those these days- also as warned about in the bible. Anyone who offers answers and specific verses instead of telling you to read scripture- ALL scripture- is a false prophet who is twisting the word of god. Read the book.

There are a LOT of contradictions in the bible, but that isn't one of them. God does absolutely murder and torture children. From a Christian perspective, children have to be "trained up" to be god-fearing, because from the day you're conceived until the day you die, you are being judged.

All children are born in sin- because they inherit original sin and must repent. SOME children, like me and mine, are born A SIN- that is, born cursed. Some sins cannot be cleansed. We all know the big 7- but if you are cursed by god, like, say, you only exist because a sin was committed, then you, as a mortal, cannot undo that curse, no matter how hard you try. There are some verses that say you can throw yourself upon the mercy of god- but I wouldn't hold my breath, knowing what I know about him and his complete lack of mercy.

Your preacher seems to think that just because someone was in the line of Abraham, that means that they CAN'T be cursed by god, just because they're kin to Jesus. There's no evidence whatsoever for that. None of the scripture he quotes back it up when looked at in context. In fact, some of it directly contradicts what he's saying here- like David's generational curse and the restructuring of marriage being proactive rather than retroactive.

If you think this shit is real, do your soul a favor. Stop listening to preachers. Remember that angels come in the shittiest places for mysterious reasons. Be not afraid. Stop listening to false prophets, stop relying on human feelings. Clear your mind completely, sit down, and read the book. As a book.

Don't flip through it like a magazine looking to validate the beliefs you already have. Don't go into with a "Christian" mindset applying preconceived meanings. Go into it like a little kid who has never heard of the CONCEPT of religion. Read it, in order, and stop and look up the historical context for the time period that you're reading about. Study it, as literature, not with "bible studies" written by fallible humans who try to interpret a god.

This could very well be a mysteriously implanted attempt to save your soul. There's no way for you to know.

You don't know me or what I know or don't know. You have some concept that having credentials somehow makes you better and smarter than someone who doesn't have them. Luckily God doesn't look at credentials. The ideas I have expressed here are mine from the study I have done with the bible. God is love and if you are teaching children this bullcrap you spew it really saddens me. People are not a sin - what they do is a sin. God offered Jesus as the answer. God didn't create a mistake. You are not a mistake!

You say I came into this darkness but you were born into it. No one is keeping you in darkness. Get rid of the burden you carry because it is you who is carrying it. God didn't put it there. You are not a sin. So there!!!

 

[Led_Astray]

Isn't it interesting that I don't need to make fun of your beliefs in order to discuss mine. I choose to testify to love with every breath I take.

Right now, people are being murdered by Christians in the name of your God.

Right now, people are being told they cannot have the same rights as others, because your God says it is wrong.

Right now, children are being threatened with going to hell if they are not obedient, in the name of your god.

Right now, active child abusers are being protected and hidden away by a massive, globe spanning organisation that works in the name of your god.

Right now, people are being told lies about literal life-and-death situations in order to support the creed of your god.

We poke fun at your beliefs because the alternative is utter despair at the atrocities being committed in your gods name. Atrocities that your blind faith and unwillingness to question actually enables.

I kinda hope there is a heaven that is a nice place to be, and that only the victims of Christianity get to go there. If so, it had better be a big palce, because otherwise its gonna get crowded real quick.

 

[Tryharder62]

Right now, people are being murdered by Christians in the name of your God.

Right now, people are being told they cannot have the same rights as others, because your God says it is wrong.

Right now, children are being threatened with going to hell if they are not obedient, in the name of your god.

Right now, active child abusers are being protected and hidden away by a massive, globe spanning organisation that works in the name of your god.

Right now, people are being told lies about literal life-and-death situations in order to support the creed of your god.

We poke fun at your beliefs because the alternative is utter despair at the atrocities being committed in your gods name. Atrocities that your blind faith and unwillingness to question actually enables.

I kinda hope there is a heaven that is a nice place to be, and that only the victims of Christianity get to go there. If so, it had better be a big palce, because otherwise its gonna get crowded real quick.

The atrocities that people do in God's name is on the people that do them. Not God. If a person does a crime because they love me, it is not my fault. It is theirs. It is funny but I hope there is a heaven too. Unlike you, I hope...and pray....that anyone who wants to go there...will.

 

[phrodeau]

The atrocities that people do in God's name is on the people that do them. Not God. If a person does a crime because they love me, it is not my fault. It is theirs. It is funny but I hope there is a heaven too. Unlike you, I hope...and pray....that anyone who wants to go there...will.

What would you call threatening children with Hell, an atrocity or a crime? Or genital mutilation? Oppression of homosexuals? Teaching that black people are spiritually inferior, crime or atrocity?

 

[Led_Astray]

The atrocities that people do in God's name is on the people that do them. Not God. If a person does a crime because they love me, it is not my fault. It is theirs. It is funny but I hope there is a heaven too. Unlike you, I hope...and pray....that anyone who wants to go there...will.

How is it NOT on God, when the holy book of instructions tells people its OK or even required to do them?

But even for the other things, the evil things done by religious organisations - sorry, but you have to stand up and take your share of the blame, as does god, if he exists. Because as long as you are ignoring all those things to keep telling us god is great, you are enabling them.

Whether it be denying rights to homosexual couples, denying rights to women, hiding child molesters, threatening children with hell or inflicting genocide - as long as the millions of Christians turn a blind eye to the things done in their name, they are enabling them.

If 10 loving Christians showed up for every 1 member of the "God hates fags" Westborough baptists that came to a rally to spew hate, then the hatemongers would get shut down pretty fast. But they don't.

If entire congregatiosn walked out of church services and refused to return until pedo-priests were handed over to proper authorities, they'd soon face actual justice. But they don't.

If even of a small fraction of the global Christian community turned out to stand in front of those facing persecution and potential death at Christian hands, the violence would end. But they don't.

"Its not our fault" - but you are members of the largest organisation on the planet, and if the members of that organisation so willed it, they could bring an end to every one of these atrocities.

But they don't.

Instead, they go about their humdrum daily lives, being a "good member of the local community" and pretending that they bear no rsponsibility for the things done in the name of their god.

But they DO.

 

[Tryharder62]

What would you call threatening children with Hell, an atrocity or a crime? Or genital mutilation? Oppression of homosexuals? Teaching that black people are spiritually inferior, crime or atrocity?

I would call it something that breaks my heart! I would be very careful attributing things to God that the bible does not. If you would like to be specific as to where you are finding these things in the bible I would be glad to discuss it further.

 

[Tryharder62]

How is it NOT on God, when the holy book of instructions tells people its OK or even required to do them?

But even for the other things, the evil things done by religious organisations - sorry, but you have to stand up and take your share of the blame, as does god, if he exists. Because as long as you are ignoring all those things to keep telling us god is great, you are enabling them.

Whether it be denying rights to homosexual couples, denying rights to women, hiding child molesters, threatening children with hell or inflicting genocide - as long as the millions of Christians turn a blind eye to the things done in their name, they are enabling them.

If 10 loving Christians showed up for every 1 member of the "God hates fags" Westborough baptists that came to a rally to spew hate, then the hatemongers would get shut down pretty fast. But they don't.

If entire congregatiosn walked out of church services and refused to return until pedo-priests were handed over to proper authorities, they'd soon face actual justice. But they don't.

If even of a small fraction of the global Christian community turned out to stand in front of those facing persecution and potential death at Christian hands, the violence would end. But they don't.

"Its not our fault" - but you are members of the largest organisation on the planet, and if the members of that organisation so willed it, they could bring an end to every one of these atrocities.

But they don't.

Instead, they go about their humdrum daily lives, being a "good member of the local community" and pretending that they bear no rsponsibility for the things done in the name of their god.

But they DO.

You are not listening to me. My whole message is that it is not on God. I acknowledge that terrible things have been done in the name of God. The only thing I can do is be the best Christian that I can be with God's help. To spread his message of love not hate. You don't know me, and don't know the things I have done beyond my humdrum life to hopefully right some wrongs and show God's love.

I frequently get the quote from Mahatma Ghandhi sent to me on lit. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Don't throw Christ out for your hate of Christians!!

 

[Led_Astray]

I have no hate for Christians.

But until the majority of Christians are willing to stand up and publicly declare "Not in our name" why should anyone take them seriously?

If you are doing your bit, with actions and not mere words, then I congratulate and praise you. A shame the majority of your brethren are not doing the same.

 

[CandiCame]

I have no hate for Christians.

But until the majority of Christians are willing to stand up and publicly declare "Not in our name" why should anyone take them seriously?

If you are doing your bit, with actions and not mere words, then I congratulate and praise you. A shame the majority of your brethren are not doing the same.

To be fair- anyone doing their part wouldn't talk to us the way she does. To KEEP spewing, "God is love" after we say, "Your god is literally telling people to kill me" is not "doing your part".

If you pick and choose what you believe in the bible to make yourself look good to non-believers, you aren't a good Christian. If you disavow the word of god to make it seem like I can get into Heaven, for instance.

If you perform all of your duties as outlined in the bible- she ought not even be speaking here. I'm a dude. With a dick. She's a woman- but she's arguing with me on a public platform, which the bible spells out as a big no-no.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 ESV / 976 helpful votes
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Timothy 5:1-2 ESV / 649 helpful votes
Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity.

Proverbs 21:19 ESV / 496 helpful votes
It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman.

An on and on and on.

I say that for a couple of reasons- 1: I think you forgot the rampant sexism that keeps women down in Christianity (in your earlier post), and 2: Not to play the "God literally thinks I'm worth more because I have a dick and you're not allowed to argue with me" card- but I got a full deck and I feel like the time is right.

God literally thinks I'm worth more because I have a dick, and she's not allowed to argue with me. So, speaking to Tryharder: Are you gonna do what you did with the illegitimacy thing and say that's not a real thing just because you don't like it? Because... that's not very Christian.

Sucks being the one god doesn't like doesn't it? Bet it sucks more if you think this shit is real.

God puts a literal value on human life based on what he thinks it's worth. Men are worth more than women.

Leviticus 27

27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.