How to be a MAN

[DreamtofManderley]

To the OP, Im a woman, if you want women to like you dear god please dont listen to the advice of Jordan Peterson. Ask most women, if you mention that name and /or behavior they will dry up faster than the Sahara desert and red flag you. He ideas arent predicated on actually liking or respecting women.

Id also be weary of anyone telling you to "man up" or not make excuses. You can believe me or not, but women see that shit as toxic. Do we want you to be dependable and responsible? Of course we do! But we dont expect you to suffer in silence.

Please try not to listen to other men who suggest things like Peterson or podcast bros on what women want. They really dont have a clue. They are sad people who want to blame their loneliness and bitterness on women. They dont want to take accountability on becoming a likeable genuine partner. You seem like you do. Posting on here was really brave and admirable. Theres no shame in asking for help.

You also dont have to " make exuses" as one person put it. Things are the way they are for reasons. Maybe you are depressed and need therapy or meds and theres no shame in that. Being kind to yourself is a good first step on the journey. You cant will your way out of that.

As for the other stuff, manning up isnt going to help you lose weight either . You need to address your mental health first, and if you can your physical health. Go get a physical and make sure you are a okay physically. If there is an underlying issue they can help you address it. If there is not, you at least know its ok to start excercising and such. I think men forget that they need to take care of their physical health too a lot. Please take care of yourself in both ways.

Its scary to start any new journey. You will get there. You also have to decide what kind of person/man you want to be. No one can make you any less a "man" inherantly because you are male. I understand wanting to feel more "manly" as I like to be more "feminine: sometimes. Just know that you have the base requirements and the majority of people dont judge you the way you do. Those that would are just miserable themselves. And you know misery loves company.

Anyway, I really wish you well on your journey. If you ever need to chat, PM me anytime. Ive been thru the depressive stuff- so Id be glad to listen if you need to vent or need a hug.

If you take nothing else from this, dont listen to anyone who thinks they can explain male/female dynamics in broad strokes. We are all individual people. I dont mean this as a cut to dudes, but a lot of them really dont have a clue what women really want which is a genuine partner, someone who actually likes and respects women and is dependable. Please dont throw yourself into the Peterson/Tate/podcast bro lot. You deserve better. If you want to like yourself and women they wont help you. I dont know how into social media you are, but look around and you will find videos on what actual women think of that stuff. Or ask women around you- that shit is red flag after redflag. Those are the type of men who Tell women what they want (are wrong 99.9) instead of ask. You got this! Good luck!

 

[davion2308]

There will be a lot of thoughts and opinions and your role here, the first step, is deciding what really is applicable.

The best thing you can start doing is developing a sense of integrity. If you say you're going to do something, do it. If you say you aren't going to do something, don't do it. Have that basic integrity to others (and yourself) that you tell the truth, you're honest, and you hold yourself accountable.

That's a hard step and it's the first.

The second step is to educate yourself. Learn about health and wellness, learn about nutrition and exercise, learn skills and ideas and about various cultures from around the world. Start consuming information and learn. People are stronger, emotionally and intellectually, when they read and expose themselves to a variety of ideas outside their own experiences. Start doing that and you may develop an appreciation for other people that will be apparent in your interactions with them.

If you're accepting and welcoming of others, you'll find yourself being accepted and welcomed more often.

From there, identify the two biggest controllable issues in your life. You said obese and full of excuses. The "full of excuses" part might get better once you start holding yourself accountable to you. The obese part is controllable because you can learn about food, exercise, and start applying those new principles to life.

Take one little step. Try one new thing. See if you can get a small, tiny, itty-bitty change to stick. Then once that's happening, try another.

We're all doing the same thing you are. We're all trying to better our lives too and it's not easy. But keep trying, that's the trick to all of this.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

If you're accepting and welcoming of others, you'll find yourself being accepted and welcomed more often.

This is huge, I applaud this point.

 

[Athalia]

I think that the best thing to do is to be honest with yourself about who you are, and what your goals are, and what you want people to think you are. Don't buy into what seems to be "masculine" at the moment, or into the images that "masculine men" are portrayed as.

The most masculine man I ever met had none of those traits. He simply projected "This is who I am, and I'll be honest with you. I like some sports, but not others. My main goal in life is to be honest with myself, and let others know that I'll be honest with them, and I'll expect the same honesty from them, and do what is right even if it isn't convenient or popular."

BTW, he was gay, and that communicated to me that masculinity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

BTW, he was gay, and that communicated to me that masculinity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Some of the bravest I've known have been gay, and I've known a lot of brave people.

Orientation really does have F/A to do with virtue.

@muddie684 kind of laid out what type of masculinity he meant:

Physically, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, how does man-boy fashion himself into husband or father material, and not merely stumble into such relationships causing permanent psychological trauma to his loved ones? Men, do you have any books to suggest or people to imitate? Women, what do you look for in a man to know he's trustworthy?

The last point - "trustworthy", is a first chapter in Jordan Peterson's book 12 Rules for Life. Tell the truth, or at least don't lie.

@muddie684 also states that he wants to avoid causing trauma to his own loved ones, that's a major theme is a lot of Peterson's work. Building emotional resilience and not becoming bitter and acting out against the world.

I go on about Jordan Peterson a lot, but he happened to write a book that a lot of people are looking for right now. For some reason, a lot of people don't like him. I've never met anyone who disliked Jordan Peterson for something he himself actually said or did though.

@muddie684 some other suggestions if you've been put off of Peterson would be to go to classics like Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus and Seneca. Epictetus is my personal favourite of the three, but they don't provide as much of a comprehensive guide on modern issues.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

He ideas arent predicated on actually liking or respecting women.

(sorry, this sounded confrontational when I read it back again - I'm genuinely curious)

Which ideas are you referring to?

They really dont have a clue. They are sad people who want to blame their loneliness and bitterness on women. They dont want to take accountability on becoming a likeable genuine partner.

Which parts make us bitter? telling the truth? respecting the decisions of others? accepting our own finitude?

It's worth adding that a large part of JP's work is geared towards avoiding bitterness and malevolence.

I'm wondering where you read this from, because it's like you've been told the complete opposite of what the truth is.

Please dont throw yourself into the Peterson/Tate

These two men have almost diametrically opposed views on women; are they both wrong? is everything in between their views also wrong?

This is like saying "Don't listen to guys like Stalin/Ghandi/Roosevelt"

 

[Crankbait88]

First step to being a man is to dress like a got damned man.

Second step is to take care of business like a man.

Third step is to drink your bourbon neat and eat your steak no more done than medium.

You do those three things, and do them well, you are 90% the way to being a man.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

First step to being a man is to dress like a got damned man.

Second step is to take care of business like a man.

Third step is to drink your bourbon neat and eat your steak no more done than medium.

You do those three things, and do them well, you are 90% the way to being a man.

Let me translate this for the younger generation

1) Wear appropriate clothing for the day. Don't wear anything tawdry or ostentatious. It's not a beauty pageant but at least make the effort.

2) When you give your word you keep it. Tell the truth, honour deals that you make and disassociate from people who do not.

3) Learn to appreciate things. Acquired tastes (like bourbon) take time to develop.

 

[twister947]

Jesus...

 

[IrisAlthea]

Jesus...

I know, right…

I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.
.
.
.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

I must not start a debate about scotch vs bourbon.

I've always wondered... why do Americans say "Scotch" instead of Whisky?

 

[Escierto]

I've always wondered... why do Americans say "Scotch" instead of Whisky?

What kind of whisky? Irish? Scotch? Canadian? American?

 

[jehoram]

I've always wondered... why do Americans say "Scotch" instead of Whisky?

It's labeled that way on the bottles, as a way of saying that it's either from Scotland or made in the style of that country.

And as Escierto pointed out, you've got your Irish whiskey, American whiskey, and god knows what other countries. And god knows what it's made of... malt, corn, wheat, rye, and so on.

What I'm wondering is how the adjective "Scotch" became obsolete in everything but the name of the beverage. In every other usage, "Scottish" is preferred for some reason. It may have had to do with "scotch" being synonymous with "cheap" or "miserly." (See "Scotch tape.")

Wikipedia has a pretty good write-up on the beverage.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

everything but the name of the beverage

We only kept it for the important stuff.

It may have had to do with "scotch" being synonymous with "cheap" or "miserly.

You forgot dour!

To me, Scotch sounds like a Scottish person saying "Scottish". Depending on the dialect it could come out "Scot'sh" or "Sco'ish".

What kind of whisky? Irish? Scotch? Canadian? American?

Here (Scotland) Whisky is always Scottish and Whiskey is for fake other contributions to the whiskey family. I was told that Whiskey is the Irish spelling, but that might be nonsense.

 

[muddie684]

You're blowing my mind! It's as bad as calling it "Jew-tape." Secret racial slurs are everywhere.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

You're blowing my mind! It's as bad as calling it "Jew-tape." Secret racial slurs are everywhere.

Heh... ehh... we don't actually mind it being called scotch tape. Scottish/Irish culture is pretty informal, that would barely constitute a mild roasting.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I've always wondered... why do Americans say "Scotch" instead of Whisky?

No idea really. I’m not American.
If someone says bourbon, I guess I just assume that they would use the word scotch too.
I’ve sat through some debates on the theme and I mean, more whisky for me while they’re busy debating…

 

[ronde]

I've always wondered... why do Americans say "Scotch" instead of Whisky?

We also write it as "whiskey", not "whisky" and we have many different types besides Scotch.

We say "Scotch" to denote that wonderful smokey libation distilled in Scotland from malted barley, wheat, or rye. We say "Bourbon" to denote whiskey distilled from corn that has been part of US history since the colonists landed here. That's different from "moonshine" or just "shine" as it's called here in the South. Drinking "shine" is a little like drinking Everclear. There's no doubt that it's alcohol because it's pretty raw. Bourbon starts out as "shine", but then gets aged in oak barrels until it smooths out a bunch. While I'm a single-malt Scotch man, I also enjoy Irish Whiskey, and some of the Japanese whiskey's are pretty good too.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

We also write it as "whiskey", not "whisky" and we have many different types besides Scotch.

We say "Scotch" to denote that wonderful smokey libation distilled in Scotland from malted barley, wheat, or rye. We say "Bourbon" to denote whiskey distilled from corn that has been part of US history since the colonists landed here. That's different from "moonshine" or just "shine" as it's called here in the South. Drinking "shine" is a little like drinking Everclear. There's no doubt that it's alcohol because it's pretty raw. Bourbon starts out as "shine", but then gets aged in oak barrels until it smooths out a bunch. While I'm a single-malt Scotch man, I also enjoy Irish Whiskey, and some of the Japanese whiskey's are pretty good too.

I do have to admin, as a Scotsman, the Japanese produce some wonderful whiskey. In my mass of bottles, I do have a very lovely smooth Japanese.

Actually I've just noticed the one at the front.

"Pine Creek Canadian Whisky"

@Escierto I guess there's no logic to the naming after all

 

[ToPleaseHim]

While I cannot speak for all women, I am a woman with a lot of female friends. I concur with the advice in the thread to NOT listen to Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate. Toxic masculinity is not something to aspire to, it is something to avoid. A man can be masculine without being toxic. A man can be dominant even without being toxic. My current SO, the one I hope to be with for the rest of my life, is an amazing example of being dominant and he’s quite liberal. My ex was both, too.

There’s a lot of great advice in this thread, but I just wanted to add my voice to disagree with this particular brand of advice.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

NOT listen to Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate

These men offer diametrically opposing advice...

Do you have a particular example of something Peterson advises that you find to be toxic?

 

[IrisAlthea]

These men offer diametrically opposing advice...

Do you have a particular example of something Peterson advises that you find to be toxic?

I’m not TPH and I was going to keep my mouth shut on Peterson but well…

I wouldn’t put them in the same category either.
The actual advice in the rules and a lot of the advice he has done, seems mostly totally reasonable to the point of being cliché.
I mean what parent hasn’t yelled ”Clean your room” at the top of their lungs at times and petting cats in the street and leaving skateboarding kids alone are givens.

I have a hard time with the Jungian archetypal stuff, because on one hand I find it entertaining at times and somewhat relevant to provide cultural context etc but on the other hand I worry that people take it as hard science.
I see milennial friends discovering and talking about books like Women Who Run With The Wolves and I’m like ”But we are being ironic, right?” and it turns out we’re not…

Some of the public drama around him I find kind of sad because addiction always is and it’s a great example of when it would be better to clean your own room first.
Being bad at following your own advice isn’t just a problem with Peterson though. I might even be guilty of that myself at times.

What is worse, is the flirting with rather non-charming groups when it comes to opinions on how to handle the pandemic and the Twitter comments that I’d prefer not to be associated with.

In short, he is the kind of person who is hard to agree with even when he’s right because of some of the strange friends you tend to acquire when you do.

With reservations, because I neither have the time nor the inclination to follow everything in the debate.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

I’m not TPH and I was going to keep my mouth shut on Peterson but well…

I don't know what TPH means...

I respect for replying with your point of view though, and know that nothing I would respond with is intended with spite or condescension. It is hard to have a reasonable conversation these days online.

The actual advice in the rules and a lot of the advice he has done, seems mostly totally reasonable to the point of being cliché.

He actually says this himself; or at least that it seems cliche until you dig deeper into it. I won't rewrite the entire book here but if you have read it then you'll know what I mean; cleaning your room is the smallest thing you can take responsibility for and it's a good foundation for increasing you ability to handle responsibility until you hit your upper limit.

I mean what parent hasn’t yelled ”Clean your room” at the top of their lungs at times and petting cats in the street and leaving skateboarding kids alone are givens.

In my own example my mother left and I had a father with a severe disability. I was great at looking after others but not myself and the chapter "treat yourself like someone you're responsible for helping" exposed a very obvious (in hindsight) deficiency I had.

Like yeah it's cliche sure, but what if no-one ever told you that? The OP lost his father and he has to learn to be a man, he's not going to become a conspiracy theorist by learning to take care of himself, negotiate or be respectful when courting a woman.

I have a hard time with the Jungian archetypal stuff, because on one hand I find it entertaining at times and somewhat relevant to provide cultural context etc but on the other hand I worry that people take it as hard science.
I see milennial friends discovering and talking about books like Women Who Run With The Wolves and I’m like ”But we are being ironic, right?” and it turns out we’re not…

I love the Jungian stuff. But I would agree; it's not a hard science.

There are parts that work as theory (you can see repeated correct predicted outcomes), but it's the same way you can say a sparrow carries the sun away in the evening and brings it back in the morning. Sure yeah the sun goes away and comes back but...

Some of the public drama around him I find kind of sad because addiction always is and it’s a great example of when it would be better to clean your own room first.
Being bad at following your own advice isn’t just a problem with Peterson though. I might even be guilty of that myself at times.

Are you talking about the benzodiazepines?

I like that he's imperfect, he's very human. When he had that breakdown on TV I was gutted for him, the world can be cruel. He did get back to his feet, however, and thats someone who's walking the walk.

What is worse, is the flirting with rather non-charming groups when it comes to opinions on how to handle the pandemic and the Twitter comments that I’d prefer not to be associated with.

I cannot openly respond this due to laws in my country.

In short, he is the kind of person who is hard to agree with even when he’s right because of some of the strange friends you tend to acquire when you do.

That's the thing; both the far left and far right have painted/dragged him into the far right even though he isnt

 

[IrisAlthea]

I don't know what TPH means...

Oh, sorry - short for ToPleaseHim.

I respect for replying with your point of view though, and know that nothing I would respond with is intended with spite or condescension. It is hard to have a reasonable conversation these days online.

It didn’t come off like that at all and I’m not easily offended.
But yeah, it can be a bit rough to discuss some topics these days - online or off. That’s why I was somewhat reluctant about even trying.

He actually says this himself; or at least that it seems cliche until you dig deeper into it.

Like yeah it's cliche sure, but what if no-one ever told you that?

Yes, I think there are people who need to hear it and I think it can be useful.
And the line between cliché and profound is perhaps just a matter of perspective.

That’s part of why I wanted to speak up actually about not wanting to throw him in the same group as Tate.

That's the thing; both the far left and far right have painted/dragged him into the far right even though he isnt

Yes, I can see that too but I can also see him being drawn into that.

There’s a woman here who has written a lot of great stuff on ethics etc.
Then she wrote some opinion piece that caught the eye of some far-right groups and got a lot of attention and a huge following.
At some point she did step on the brakes and she has written since about how she was carried away by the huge following and the almost godlike treatment she got there for a while.

So yeah, radicalization is a thing, both for those on the influencing side and the influenced side.
And once you watch some Peterson, there are others who are going to show up in your feed and while I think the OP seems to have their head screwed on right I can understand why some would hesitate to recommend Peterson.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

Oh, sorry - short for ToPleaseHim.

Ahhh The local language

But yeah, it can be a bit rough to discuss some topics these days - online or off. That’s why I was somewhat reluctant about even trying.

I barely talk about it to be fair. The same reasons; it gets ugly too often. In this thread though.. the young fella just seems to be looking for what I would have benefitted from if I'd gotten it much younger.

But maybe I've got a hammer and everything looks like a nail.

Yes, I think there are people who need to hear it and I think it can be useful.
And the line between cliché and profound is perhaps just a matter of perspective.

It's a dumb thing but you know what it reminds me of?
The movie Demolition man when Stallone's character doesn't know how to use the shells and the other characters laugh as it's such a mundane thing for them.

That’s part of why I wanted to speak up actually about not wanting to throw him in the same group as Tate.

I applaud that; even if you didn't/don't think Jordan is a good influence you still recognise that they're not even close.

Yes, I can see that too but I can also see him being drawn into that.

Can you explain why? or it more like a hunch?

There’s a woman here who has written a lot of great stuff on ethics etc.
Then she wrote some opinion piece that caught the eye of some far-right groups and got a lot of attention and a huge following.
At some point she did step on the brakes and she has written since about how she was carried away by the huge following and the almost godlike treatment she got there for a while.

Ahh. I've been there *sort of*. I had twitter and I got into it with someone over something they said, next thing I know I'm gaining followers calling themselves "red pilled" and I've got a load of upset socialists (I think they say leftists in the states, but I'm not sure exactly) trying to destroy my career.

So yeah, radicalization is a thing, both for those on the influencing side and the influenced side.
And once you watch some Peterson, there are others who are going to show up in your feed and while I think the OP seems to have their head screwed on right I can understand why some would hesitate to recommend Peterson.

You're correct about this. I recommended Peterson to a friend who was struggling with relationships. He took the lessons and everything was going great. A few months later he had started watching some guru who was convincing him that women were different species and he had to "manipulate their psychology" to gain success. I managed to steer him back but yeah... that happened like you said, bald man in sunglasses appearing on the feed.