How much do you think the average American cares about America?

[adrina]

I'm not sure why you think you're worth my time to reply to at this point. Go be angry somewhere else or to someone else.

 

[AlexBailey]

Last time I checked we just lost abortion rights. I don't think the system is broken. The system is demonstrably broken. I'm not the one with whiny excuses here. But bless your little heart. You just keep on voting for Democrats like a good girl.......while you still can without having to ask your husband's permission first.

View attachment 2176989

no really,

What the fuck points are you trying to make? Is there anything worth saying rattling around in your skull? Or are you just being a funny troll?


You say is all rigged, then you blame democrats for losing ground on abortion rights, are you suggesting to vote for someone else? If you are, say so and say who. You don't blame Republicans for being Republicans on this one?

Reading your posts is like listening to a raging old street-drunk, get it together and say what's important or we can just go on ignoring you.

Edit: oh good. I see you just posted something where you to make a point. I'll just go waste a few minutes of my life on it. Hopefully you at least start with a cogent premise.

 

[AlexBailey]

First of all I do vote. I never claimed that I don't. I also don't encourage other people not to vote. What I don't do is smugly attempt to shame people who refuse to wait in long lines like cattle to participate in a rigged system.

Yeah, about Kansas. You do realize that was a ballot measure designed to restrict abortion. A measure that never should have gotten on the ballot in the first place if the Democrats were doing their job. But as always Democrats were asleep at the switch. Just like with marijuana legalization, gay marriage, and minimum wage increases this came through ballot measures directly voted on by the public. Not anything the Democratic party campaigned on, endorsed, or fought for. The voters had to do their job for them as a last resort.

Unfortunately we do not live in a direct democracy. Most voting is not for direct ballot measures that actually affect voters lives. Voter turn out for those type of ballot measures, like marijuana legalization, routinely have high voter turn out. What they don't turn out for is the crap the two major parties offer. Why? Because the system is rigged and they know it.




In their new book, Democracy in America? What Has Gone Wrong and What We Can Do About It (University of Chicago Press, 2017), political scientist and IPR associate Benjamin Page and Martin Gilens of Princeton University present an indictment of today’s politics, pointing specifically to how the American public has little say in policy decisions.

After analyzing approximately 2,000 federal policy decisions over 20 years, Page and Gilens found that affluent Americans, corporations, and organized interest groups have been much more successful than ordinary Americans at getting their preferred policies passed.

“Ordinary citizens have little or no independent influence at all,” Page says.


He notes that when 60–70 percent of Americans have favored a particular policy change, that change has only been implemented about 40 percent of the time.


“The public is often thwarted through inaction,” Page says. “The wealthy and partisan extremists often succeed at stopping proposals that are popular.”

https://www.ipr.northwestern.edu/news/2018/page-democracy-in-america.html


https://cdn1.opensecrets.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/17144811/1BDM-11.png

Okay, yeah. Grid lock. You're talking about how politics sucks and is inefficent? What do you suggest? Dump the system?

What do you want, a benevolent dictator?

 

[AlexBailey]

@BluesDriver66


It looks like your smoking a great pipe-dream. From the synopses of that book you linked:


"To repair our democracy, Page and Gilens argue, we must change the way we choose candidates and conduct our elections, reform our governing institutions, and curb the power of money in politics. By doing so, we can reduce polarization and gridlock, address pressing challenges, and enact policies that truly reflect the interests of average Americans."

Wow. That's almost like something from Gene Roddenberry. When does the Enterprise land on that planet?

Are you saying that the best way to do that is to reject the Democratic party?
Do see anything about the GOP that might be an issue here?

 

[BluesDriver66]

@BluesDriver66


It looks like your smoking a great pipe-dream. From the synopses of that book you linked:


"To repair our democracy, Page and Gilens argue, we must change the way we choose candidates and conduct our elections, reform our governing institutions, and curb the power of money in politics. By doing so, we can reduce polarization and gridlock, address pressing challenges, and enact policies that truly reflect the interests of average Americans."

Wow. That's almost like something from Gene Roddenberry. When does the Enterprise land on that planet?

Are you saying that the best way to do that is to reject the Democratic party?
Do see anything about the GOP that might be an issue here?

Keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep getting what you've been getting. Which is less and less. Just how many presidential elections, Supreme Court seats, and Constitutional rights need to stolen before you get the message the Democratic party is a failure?

If you vote Republican you get right wing plans and policies. If you vote Democratic you still get right wing plans and policies. I know you really want to believe that the King is wearing the most beautiful and regal clothes you've ever seen but I'm here to tell you he's fucking naked as a jaybird.

I don't praise Republicans. I fucking hate them. They traffic in racism, homophobia, gun violence, women as property, etc. Yet the highest leaders of the Democrat Party treat them like wonderful human beings. They wish them well, want them to be successful, are always subservient to them and invite them into the party to quash any left leaning proposals they pretend to be for. Joe Manchin gets millions in Democratic money and support every time he runs for office. Then promptly votes with Republicans on every major issue. You may enjoy the Democrat party pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining. I'm not that stupid.



"Hey, here I am, Nancy Pelosi, saying this country needs a strong Republican party, and we do, not a cult, but a strong Republican party."

-Nancy Pelosi


Joe Biden told attendees at a Massachusetts fundraiser Saturday that "there’s an awful lot of really good Republicans"

- Joe Biden

 

[BluesDriver66]

I'm not sure why you think you're worth my time to reply to at this point. Go be angry somewhere else or to someone else.

Wow! What a self important pompous ass you are. I don't want you to reply to me. I want you to shut the fuck up.

 

[adrina]

Irony.

 

[AlexBailey]

Keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep getting what you've been getting. Which is less and less. Just how many presidential elections, Supreme Court seats, and Constitutional rights need to stolen before you get the message the Democratic party is a failure?

If you vote Republican you get right wing plans and policies. If you vote Democratic you still get right wing plans and policies. I know you really want to believe that the King is wearing the most beautiful and regal clothes you've ever seen but I'm here to tell you he's fucking naked as a jaybird.

I don't praise Republicans. I fucking hate them. They traffic in racism, homophobia, gun violence, women as property, etc. Yet the highest leaders of the Democrat Party treat them like wonderful human beings. They wish them well, want them to be successful, are always subservient to them and invite them into the party to quash any left leaning proposals they pretend to be for. Joe Manchin gets millions in Democratic money and support every time he runs for office. Then promptly votes with Republicans on every major issue. You may enjoy the Democrat party pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining. I'm not that stupid.



"Hey, here I am, Nancy Pelosi, saying this country needs a strong Republican party, and we do, not a cult, but a strong Republican party."

-Nancy Pelosi


Joe Biden told attendees at a Massachusetts fundraiser Saturday that "there’s an awful lot of really good Republicans"

- Joe Biden

So you see a fucked up two-party system and you think it's better to hack the at the legs of the one that is closest to the direction you want to go?

Your solution doesn't even have anything to do with the links you posted. Your link suggests a great pipe dream of changing how we choose candidates and get the money out of politics but did you even go there? You just stop at hating democrats.

I want to hear your ideas of how to get money out of politics, and be sure to include how to get the GOP led supreme court to sign-off on it while you're at it.

 

[EmptyTank]

I have no idea

unlike the thread starter and her many admirers
who really do make me want to take a shower

I am an above average American

I vote
just not in the primaries
a man of country but no party

one who keeps an open mind

is it still okay to say man in a woke thread like this

are we all fetterwoman now

please do not stroke out over my humble observation

 

[AlexBailey]

C'mon. Which is it? I'm a nihlist claiming the system is broke and there's nothing you can do about it or I'm an insurrectionist hell bent on violent revolution? Niether. I'm the kid looking at the king parading down the street bare assed naked and calling that shit out.

The problem with this perspective is that you don't live under a king. I'm assuming you're an American citizen yet you seem to take no agency and no responsibility for your country. It is supposed to be of the people, by the people. You sound bitter and put upon - like aside from any sort of corruption you are mostly railing against interests being sought by the voting public that you don't agree with. This is probably why some people think you may be an insurrectionist. It's hardly a leap when reading your vitriol.

I absolutely agree with some of the points you've made about politicians supporting other interests based on their own profits or their donors' interests. Again, what are your ideas for getting money out of politics?

 

[BluesDriver66]

So you see a fucked up two-party system and you think it's better to hack the at the legs of the one that is closest to the direction you want to go?

Your solution doesn't even have anything to do with the links you posted. Your link suggests a great pipe dream of changing how we choose candidates and get the money out of politics but did you even go there? You just stop at hating democrats.

I want to hear your ideas of how to get money out of politics, and be sure to include how to get the GOP led supreme court to sign-off on it while you're at it.

The difference between the Republican and Democratic party is like the difference between a shit burger and a shit burger with cheese. No, the Democratic party is not closer to the direction I want to go. There are going in the same direction as the Republicans and only playing lip service to progressive ideas.

You can't have it both ways. You can't support right wing conservatives like Joe Manchin with millions in money and endorsements every election and also claim you you are for progressive legislation when he kills every progressive bill that the Democrats propose. There is no Republican equivalent. There are no hardcore liberals in the Republican party killing all their major bills. And even if there was you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't be giving him millions in support and endorsements.

Let me ask you, if your wife brought her boyfriend home to live in your house then also said she's going to regularly give him money out of your bank account because he's so good at what he does and she doesn't want him to leave, would you think that's a good or acceptable idea? What if she also told you that's just the way marriage works and you should just go along with it because anything else is just a pipe dream. And stop hating on her and her boyfriend too. Would you accept it? Of course not! Yet that's the kind of fucked up, abused spouse, mega cuck attitude you are bending over for hoping maybe one day, maybe someday you'll get that reach around that never comes.

I'm not that stupid. I'm not going to accept Democrats giving my campaign contributions to right wing conservatives to kill progressive legislation anymore than I would give random dudes money to fuck my wife in my own house.

 

[AlexBailey]

The difference between the Republican and Democratic party is like the difference between a shit burger and a shit burger with cheese. No, the Democratic party is not closer to the direction I want to go. There are going in the same direction as the Republicans and only playing lip service to progressive ideas.

You can't have it both ways. You can't support right wing conservatives like Joe Manchin with millions in money and endorsements every election and also claim you you are for progressive legislation when he kills every progressive bill that the Democrats propose. There is no Republican equivalent. There are no hardcore liberals in the Republican party killing all their major bills. And even if there was you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't be giving him millions in support and endorsements.

Let me ask you, if your wife brought her boyfriend home to live in your house then also said she's going to regularly give him money out of your bank account because he's so good at what he does and she doesn't want him to leave, would you think that's a good or acceptable idea? What if she also told you that's just the way marriage works and you should just go along with it because anything else is just a pipe dream. And stop hating on her and her boyfriend too. Would you accept it? Of course not! Yet that's the kind of fucked up, abused spouse, mega cuck attitude you are bending over for hoping maybe one day, maybe someday you'll get that reach around that never comes.

I'm not that stupid. I'm not going to accept Democrats giving my campaign contributions to right wing conservatives to kill progressive legislation anymore than I would give random dudes money to fuck my wife in my own house.

Got it. You're not happy with choices between the lesser of two evils. Right? You don't like government using your money for shit you don't believe in.

I'm not on your side, and neither are most people, I believe government can do good things for society, it is a tool and it's supposed to work for the people.

The one thing we seem to share as a solution is to get money out of politics.

What's your plan? How do you get the money out of politics?

 

[BluesDriver66]

Got it. You're not happy with choices between the lesser of two evils. Right? You don't like government using your money for shit you don't believe in.

I'm not on your side, and neither are most people, I believe government can do good things for society, it is a tool and it's supposed to work for the people.

The one thing we seem to share as a solution is to get money out of politics.

What's your plan? How do you get the money out of politics?

No I do not enjoy voting for evil in any of it's forms. I'm anti-evil. I'm funny that way.

No. You are confused. I never addressed use of tax money. What I am objecting to is the Democrats giving money to and inviting right wing conservatives into the party who kill all major progressive legislation.

You really don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Most people are on my side.

As Faith Flags in U.S. Government, Many Voters Want to Upend the System​

A majority of American voters across nearly all demographics and ideologies believe their system of government does not work, with 58 percent of those interviewed for a New York Times/Siena College poll saying that the world’s oldest independent constitutional democracy needs major reforms or a complete overhaul.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/us/politics/government-trust-voting-poll.html

 

[JohnnySavage]

There is an excellent book titled: "American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns; The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried to Report It" that is about politics at the beginning of the nation. Not much has changed in politics. If anything, they are tamer today. Social Media notwithstanding (Notwithstanding because interest in such seems to be an urban thing)

 

[oggbashan]

There is an excellent book titled: "American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns; The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried to Report It" that is about politics at the beginning of the nation. Not much has changed in politics. If anything, they are tamer today. Social Media notwithstanding (Notwithstanding because interest in such seems to be an urban thing)

In the early 19th century in the UK, open bribery of electors was common. In Canterbury, Kent, after one election, ALL the candidates were barred from standing for election for anything because the bribery and ballot stuffing were so obvious.

 

[jaF0]

The average American is only concerned about their next meal.

The one that comes from the grocery store or restaurant. Beyond that, they have no idea where it comes from or how it gets there.

 

[icanhelp1]

So you see a fucked up two-party system and you think it's better to hack the at the legs of the one that is closest to the direction you want to go?

Your solution doesn't even have anything to do with the links you posted. Your link suggests a great pipe dream of changing how we choose candidates and get the money out of politics but did you even go there? You just stop at hating democrats.

I want to hear your ideas of how to get money out of politics, and be sure to include how to get the GOP led supreme court to sign-off on it while you're at it.

One way is to put restrictions on politicians who recently exited office, for whatever reason, going into the lobbying business, 5-7 years minimum.

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK there are maximum amounts a political party can spend on Parliamentary elections. It is £30,000 per candidate. If they campaign in all 533 seats the maximum is:

UK Parliamentary general election
England (533 constituencies) x £30,000 = £15,990,000
(maximum spending limit)

They can split that between a national campaign and individual candidates but no candidate can exceed £30,000. In practice, they spend less on safe seats, use the surplus for the National campaign and spend close to the £30,000 on seats that could go either way.

Private or commercial donations or discounts from commercial companies supporting the Party are counted toward the maximum

Compare that with US spending!

 

[icanhelp1]

In the UK there are maximum amounts a political party can spend on Parliamentary elections. It is £30,000 per candidate. If they campaign in all 533 seats the maximum is:

UK Parliamentary general election
England (533 constituencies) x £30,000 = £15,990,000
(maximum spending limit)

They can split that between a national campaign and individual candidates but no candidate can exceed £30,000. In practice, they spend less on safe seats, use the surplus for the National campaign and spend close to the £30,000 on seats that could go either way.

Private or commercial donations or discounts from commercial companies supporting the Party are counted toward the maximum

Compare that with US spending!

US spending is off the charts, it forces politicians to spend more time fundraising than actually doing their job.

 

[AlexBailey]

One way is to put restrictions on politicians who recently exited office, for whatever reason, going into the lobbying business, 5-7 years minimum.

I think that a great idea, a great start.

The trouble is that a restriction against revolving-door lobbying requires the support of some of those who take advantage of it.

It's like how women won the right to vote because enough men finally realized it was the right thing to do and made the choice to support women's rights even if it decreased their own societal advanages. The same is true for overturning slavery -- enough of those in power have to realize that doing the right thing is more important than maintaining power. You can't get that kind of sacrifice from a party who won't concede when their own investigations show they have lost an election.

Any other good ideas out there for getting the money out of politics?

 

[icanhelp1]

I think that a great idea, a great start.

The trouble is that a restriction against revolving-door lobbying requires the support of some of those who take advantage of it.

It's like how women won the right to vote because enough men finally realized it was the right thing to do and made the choice to support women's rights even if it decreased their own societal advanages. The same is true for overturning slavery -- enough of those in power have to realize that doing the right thing is more important than maintaining power. You can't get that kind of sacrifice from a party who won't concede when their own investigations show they have lost an election.

Any other good ideas out there for getting the money out of politics?

In order to govern you have to have consensus. Money can't buy consensus it only buys power and power corrupts. Party loyalty has taken our government in the wrong direction and the electorate doesn't know how to correct it or doesn't care.

 

[iso36]

The US Gov just needs to give Unmarried American women over 30 free cats.

Once you get them posting little cat videos, society will return to normal.

 

[Pad_Foot]

IF... the Democrats get ALLLLLL the control.....
MAYBE they would change all the rules that are fucked up.
MAYBE they would give the laws we have some TEETH. LIke.... emoluments..... The Founding Fathers intended it to be a bad thing. Our COURT decided... "No no, you can donate money to the President's BUSINESS!! That's not a gift"
MAYBE the Dems would give us 13 Supreme Court justices to the Supreme Court could be A-Political or at least centered.
OH.... maybe we fix the Electoral College so a MINORITY can't control this country with a MINORITY of the SENATE!!

But how can the Democrats overcome Gerrymandering and new election laws?

OR?? All politicians are whores and narcissists who only think about maintaining their own power. Like, McConnell and all those like him. His wife was one of MANY who should have been tried for abuse of power. Not that Republicans even know what that means. THEY think it means maladministration.

SHIT.. .they are are ALL GUILTY of inside trading, but make a law with TEETH to end that? Police themselves? Noooo!!

 

[AlexBailey]

In order to govern you have to have consensus. Money can't buy consensus it only buys power and power corrupts. Party loyalty has taken our government in the wrong direction and the electorate doesn't know how to correct it or doesn't care.

Party loyalty is taking priority over loyalty to the rule of law.

 

[icanhelp1]

Party loyalty is taking priority over loyalty to the rule of law.

You won’t get an argument from me.