How much back story and character description

[Voboy]

Americans seem to have more grief with a cunt than Brits or Australians.

Lit has taught me that a VERY large percentage of the women who post here, many of whom also read the stories, have no problem with Cunt. Probably because it's not a random sample; the people who post here tend to be perverts.

On that word? I always preach "write what you'd want to read," and as a reader I enjoy the earthy crudeness of Cunt, even though I would never use it in daily speech.

Definitely this. But I think the trickier things for new writers is what terms the narrator uses when you write in third person.

Generally, my narrative voice adheres to the vocabulary that is appropriate for the point of view character.

Very true. Writing in FP, as I often do, makes these decisions easier.

 

[Djmac1031]

Yeah, I was wondering if there were cultural differences at play there. (On that note, if I described a character as a 'tradie', would American readers understand that as a tradesperson of some sort - e.g. a plumber, electrician, etc?)

Off on a tangent, but I got my girlfriend's son to start watching Dr. Who with me (the modern reboot) and I've had to stop and explain a few times what a character meant because they use a lot of British slang lol.

 

[Voboy]

I think more people are offended more by it's use as an insult, especially a man calling a woman a "cunt." It's obviously meant to be VERY derogatory, and sexist as well.

You can watch Trainspotting as an American and the word just washes over you, but when Richard Gere uses it in An Officer And A Gentleman? It's hard for me to imagine any other word having that impact. In that scene, it's searing.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Americans seem to have more grief with a cunt than Brits or Australians. That's their issue, not yours. Write from within your own culture and don't try to accommodate cringes within others would be my advice, otherwise you'll lose your natural voice.

This is generally true, but if you're supposed to be writing Americans, be aware that calling someone a cunt here isn't affectionate joking around; it's all but an invitation to a fistfight. At the very least, if you call a woman that here every woman in earshot is going to think you're either a misogynistic creep, have been horribly wronged by the woman, or some combination of both. It's so toxic in at least Generation X and older that it's called the "C" word even by a lot of adults, even when just discussing it in a linguistic sense.

So, yeah, if you're writing an Australian, cunts away. But if you're trying to write an American? Tread very, very lightly. But especially in younger generations, it's okay in raunchier bedroom talk as a synonym for female genitalia.

 

[NoTalentHack]

No, I don't think most Americans would get that.

Agreed. In most cases, you'd use the specific job (electrician, plumber, etc.). If it's an undifferentiated group, then "workmen" or "tradesmen," depending on your geographic location are much more common.

 

[Traderdc]

So I'm working on m first story for Lit, and have so many questions. But the one I'm thinking about right now is how much backstory and character description is needed? I mean, I know the technical answer is 'none', but does that make for a less satisfying reader experience? And is there such a thing as 'too much' ... like, if you describe the main character with too much detail, especially if it's first person, does that make it more difficult for the reader to identify with them ... or is it, as a poet friend once said about poetry, the details that make the story universal?
I've already learnt a fair bit from posting in another thread (about first vs third person), but ended up feeling like I'd hijacked the OP's thread, when my original intention was to just not replicate a question that had obviously already been asked a heap of times.

I want enough description to help me transport myself to the story, but not so much that you handcuff my imagination. Tall, blond - great i can now think about some tall blond i have crushed on, but if you add too much description that is no longer possible. Tease my imagination, don’t drown it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No, I don't think most Americans would get that.

It's the same point I made earlier - it's a cultural usage. Aussies and Brits know what a "tradie" is, Americans don't. Just as Americans would use many terms the rest of the world doesn't - and I'm sure America has its own regional variations. It's a long way from Texas to Maine.

Use what comes naturally and it will read right. Write from within your own house, and don't bother trying to figure out someone else's dictionary.

 

[KimGordon67]

Agreed. In most cases, you'd use the specific job (electrician, plumber, etc.). If it's an undifferentiated group, then "workmen" or "tradesmen," depending on your geographic location are much more common.

The woman who built my deck might find some of those terms problematic.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So, yeah, if you're writing an Australian, cunts away. But if you're trying to write an American? Tread very, very lightly. But especially in younger generations, it's okay in raunchier bedroom talk as a synonym for female genitalia.

This is never a problem for me - other than one story (my Mickey Spillane piece), I never write American characters. It's such a non-issue for me as a writer - and I don't expect American writers to accommodate my Australian sensitivities.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The woman who built my deck might find some of those terms problematic.

Exactly. Write from within your usage, KG, and your prose will reflect who you are, not someone else. And it will reflect your cultural background too - and be educational .

 

[MelissaBaby]

It's the same point I made earlier - it's a cultural usage. Aussies and Brits know what a "tradie" is, Americans don't. Just as Americans would use many terms the rest of the world doesn't - and I'm sure America has its own regional variations. It's a long way from Texas to Maine.

Jeezum crow, tell me about it. I sound like a wicked dubber from the williwacks compared to these flatlanders in Michigan.

 

[Djmac1031]

This is never a problem for me - other than one story (my Mickey Spillane piece), I never write American characters. It's such a non-issue for me as a writer - and I don't expect American writers to accommodate my Australian sensitivities.

And I'm just the Arrogant American who's never stopped to think, let alone consider, that someone from a different country might be reading my stories and not fully understand certain references lol.

Seriously though. We all have Smart Phones now, right? How hard is it to Google a reference or term in a story we don't understand?

I do it all the time. Especially when you guys throw Big Words at me .

 

[ElectricBlue]

Jeezum crow, tell me about it. I sound like a wicked dubber from the williwacks compared to these flatlanders in Michigan.

See - that's a perfect illustration! There was no way I was ever going to attempt that - and I don't need a dictionary to understand it. I'm guessing those folk in Maine have made insult into a fine art.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Seriously though. We all have Smart Phones now, right? How hard is it to Google a reference or term in a story we don't understand?

I do it all the time. Especially when you guys throw Big Words at me .

You might miss some nuance, but if the writing flows smoothly, you're either not going to know and it won't matter, or you're going to think, "Hmmm, maybe I missed something there," and as you say, look it up.

Current urban street slang and the generational divide has me doing that constantly - I had to look up OOC just yesterday, because I'd never seen that usage before.

 

[Voboy]

I'd be able to figure out "tradie" as a term, no problem.

What I'd be less aware of is the connotations of that term in Commonwealth society: does it imply things about the person's background, capabilities, or intelligence? Is there some kind of sexual expectation conveyed by the word? Would a woman's girlfriends snicker when she said it, like is it something she feels she should be ashamed of?

Or does any of that mental masturbation matter?

I wouldn't know.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'd be able to figure out "tradie" as a term, no problem.

What I'd be less aware of is the connotations of that term in Commonwealth society: does it imply things about the person's background, capabilities, or intelligence? Is there some kind of sexual expectation conveyed by the word? Would a woman's girlfriends snicker when she said it, like is it something she feels she should be ashamed of?

Or does any of that mental masturbation matter?

I wouldn't know.

In the context I use it, it implies an aspect of physique: "He’s definitely a bit of a dad bod (mostly comprised of beer), but he’s a tradie and he surfs, so he’s also pretty fit, and I always loved the physicality of him." Underneath that, there's probably implications of a certain form of masculinity that would make sense to a local reader, but I think that's indicated in other places as well ... or maybe I'm just imagining that because I know the person concerned so well that I can easily picture him when I write certain things.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I'd be able to figure out "tradie" as a term, no problem.

What I'd be less aware of is the connotations of that term in Commonwealth society: does it imply things about the person's background, capabilities, or intelligence? Is there some kind of sexual expectation conveyed by the word? Would a woman's girlfriends snicker when she said it, like is it something she feels she should be ashamed of?

Or does any of that mental masturbation matter?

I wouldn't know.

I think if it's an American trying to understand Australian or British words that aren't usually in our vernacular, it's fine. Admittedly, I had to look up "arvo" to find out it meant afternoon when I heard it in a song, but most of the time (as with "tradies") readers should be able to pick it up from context in most cases. The problem you'll run into is when, as an Australian or British person, you're trying to write an American with little background in either of those countries, and they use slang that they shouldn't.

There's a story I'm reading right now set in Australia, written by an Australian, but the main character and one of the supporting characters are Americans who've never been in that country before, and one of them used the term "spruik." I had no fucking clue what it meant, even from the context, but both of them did; it's a word that is never used in the U. S., and appears to be purely Australian slang. So having the characters use/understand that term took me out of the story for just a little bit. There were other examples, too, but that's the one that really stuck with me.

It's a problem on our end, too; Cultural Exchanges, a romance I'm writing, is set in London. I've visited a few times, and I've had folks from the UK visit my home, and I used to watch the shit out of BBC comedies, so I'm passingly familiar with the differences in our speech. But I still have to go back and do what I call the "arse pass" and make sure I'm not making obvious and easy-to-avoid linguistic mistakes based on my reflexive use of the language.

 

[Smuttyandfun]

So I'm working on m first story for Lit, and have so many questions. But the one I'm thinking about right now is how much backstory and character description is needed? I mean, I know the technical answer is 'none', but does that make for a less satisfying reader experience? And is there such a thing as 'too much' ... like, if you describe the main character with too much detail, especially if it's first person, does that make it more difficult for the reader to identify with them ... or is it, as a poet friend once said about poetry, the details that make the story universal?
I've already learnt a fair bit from posting in another thread (about first vs third person), but ended up feeling like I'd hijacked the OP's thread, when my original intention was to just not replicate a question that had obviously already been asked a heap of times.

I just did an experiment with one of my stories - Late Night Swim with My Step-Sister. Since I don't submit much in incest, I thought it would be a good place to try the story two ways.

The first chapter had pretty much no back story. One commenter actually mentioned that they like to know something about the background of the characters, though they still said that they enjoyed the story.
I thought it still did OK, even without any backstory. It's had over 41K reads in just over a week, 79 favorites and scored 4.62.

For the second chapter, I gave some backstory. I mentioned what the MMC did for a living, what the girls were studying and a little about their family background and how he became the man of the house at 18, when his father died.

Normally, subsequent chapters are less read, so I wasn't surprised that after being posted for a day and half, it's had about 17K reads. It's got 26 favorites and scored 4.71.

The second chapter was a little lustier, which might have contributed to the higher score. But the first chapter is still being read, and favorited, even without any back story.

When I write something more detailed, like a romance, I usually provide more background, so the readers feel invested in the characters because they actually feel like they know them.

So, IMHO I think for a quick stroke story, backstories aren't really that important. But if you're trying to create something a little more meaningful, I think that providing some background is pretty much essential.

 

[WyreBendr0417]

It's a very weird thing. I'm American. "Cunt" doesn't bother me at all.

I think more people are offended more by it's use as an insult, especially a man calling a woman a "cunt." It's obviously meant to be VERY derogatory, and sexist as well.

But as a sex term itself, I personally don't take issue with it most times.

It can be jarring and inappropriate depending on context.

I do use it myself, but sparingly.

I totally agree. Used in the throes of sex I have no problem with it, but as an insult or used in name calling I don't like it. I've used cunt in stories as part of the language between lovers and have yet to censured on it by readers.

 

[XerXesXu]

and I don't expect American writers to accommodate my Australian sensitivities.

To immerse yourself in the full richness of ‘Australian sensitivity’ watch here:

Ten Pound Poms.

NB: EB’s a Pom.

 

[ElectricBlue]

To immerse yourself in the full richness of ‘Australian sensitivity’ watch here:

Ten Pound Poms.

NB: EB’s a Pom.

Not a ten pound one, though. Either my parents or a university paid our way.

I've seen the ads for that program - I wonder if it's "They're a Weird Mob" up-issued for 2023?

I suspect it would ring many bells for my mother if she were still alive - she hated her first years in Australia, until my younger sister was old enough for school, and mum began teaching again.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'd be able to figure out "tradie" as a term, no problem.

What I'd be less aware of is the connotations of that term in Commonwealth society: does it imply things about the person's background, capabilities, or intelligence? Is there some kind of sexual expectation conveyed by the word? Would a woman's girlfriends snicker when she said it, like is it something she feels she should be ashamed of?

Or does any of that mental masturbation matter?

I wouldn't know.

Yes, yes, yes, depends. Like all cultural expressions, there are nuances - but as a writer who enjoys nuance, I'm not going to bother writing a glossary to explain the subtleties. Readers will either see them, or they won't. It doesn't bother me. They're like my inter-linked story Easter eggs. I know they're there, and that's enough.

The expression "plumbers crack", for example, takes on a whole bunch of new meaning with female plumbers (although some contortion would be necessary).

 

[XerXesXu]

Not a ten pound one, though. Either my parents or a university paid our way.

I've seen the ads for that program - I wonder if it's "They're a Weird Mob" up-issued for 2023?

I suspect it would ring many bells for my mother if she were still alive - she hated her first years in Australia, until my younger sister was old enough for school, and mum began teaching again.

I got lucky. My Dad had job offers from both Sydney and London Fire Brigades. He preferred Sydney, my Mum preferred London, she had a casting vote.

 

[Kay_Evans100]

Going back to earlier part of thread I actually use pussy and cunt, but find myself using pussy earlier in the story and as it develops and becomes more sexual and intense switch to using the word cunt as that feels more appropriate to the mood of the characters I am writing about in that moment of intense arousal and passion.

 

[alohadave]

(On that note, if I described a character as a 'tradie', would American readers understand that as a tradesperson of some sort - e.g. a plumber, electrician, etc?)

If I didn't already know, I'd instantly peg you, the author, as Australian. Your country has a particular way with slang terms.