How are we hypocritical about this war?

Hello_Kitten

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This appeared today in my local paper, written by a local associate professor. It's long but worth the read. I typed it out to send to a friend, it's not online so I don't have an Internet source to quote. I suppose if anyone really wants to question the validity of it I could scan the original article.


How are we hypocritical about this war? Let us count the ways.

Hypocrisy: Pretending to be what one is not. Saying one thing and doing another. Hypocrisy by the U.S. government is:

 Claiming the war is for Iraqi freedom when for many years the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein, including the aggression against Iran. Of course, if the Kurds in the north choose autonomy or the Shias in the South want to be part of Iran, it won’t be allowed. And what if the Iraqis elect an anti-U.S. Islamist government? Will the three U.S. generals already assigned to rule Iraq allow that?
 Claiming the war is for the Iraqi people. It is hard to believe the interests of the Iraqis is the reason for this aggressive war, since hundreds of thousands of Iraqi women and children have died in the past 10 years thanks to the U.S. sanctions which kept Saddam in power, but weak enough to attack when the chance came. Besides, the U.S. already has announced that Iraq will be rebuilt using Iraqi oil and contracts are being let to the U.S. oil companies for managing this – with a nice profit of course.
 Claiming the war is for democracy when the U.S. supports the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (not a democracy), the Emirate of Kuwait (not a democracy), and labels Iran (where there is some democracy and people are struggling for more) part of the axis of evil. The only strong democracy bordering Iraq is Turkey and the U.S. tried to bribe it into supporting the war despite 90 percent of the population being against it. When the French and Canadian governments follow the will of their people and oppose the attack, we sneer at them.

Loyalty to our government should be more important, apparently, than their own democracy. Of course, around the world the U.S. supports dozens of horrible dictatorships (like the military rule of Pakistan, which is a nuclear power) and since World War II we have overthrown elected and popular governments in Iran, Guatemala, Chile and many other places. But then, those who were democracies we didn’t like. Recently the U.S. government rushed to endorse the coup in Venezuela that almost overthrew its elected government, which is trying to keep more of that country’s oil income at home.
 Claiming the war is because Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, yet when Saddam used these weapons before against Iran we aided him with crucial military intelligence, even though we knew what he was doing. And the last time he used weapons of mass destruction, against his own people, the U.S. government immediately doubled his military aid.
 Claiming the war is against weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. has more weapons of mass destruction than anyone, including the anthrax that was used on us in 2001. In new U.S. military policy our government says it has the right to use nuclear weapons not just to defend ourselves when attacked, but also as first use to defend ourselves against a conventional attack. Worse, we now claim the right to use nuclear weapons in a so-called “pre-emptive” (i.e. aggressive) war.
 Claming the war is to protect the U.S. when Iraq has never attacked nor threatened the U.S. except when we were attacking it. There is no documented case of Iraq sponsoring terror attacks on the U.S.
 Claiming the war is to protect the international community when the community over-whelming opposes it, and when we won’t support the World Court, the Kyoto Accords or the U.N. itself.
 Claiming the war is just when it is a war of aggression. It is not even a pre-emptive war, since Iraq was not on the verge of attacking us. That millionaires’ club, the U.S. congress, doesn’t even have the courage to declare war as the Constitution mandates, and oilman Bush doesn’t have the courage to ask for such a declaration.
 Pretending the war is to make the U.S. safer, when instead it has traditional enemies – the political Islamists (Osama and his ilk) and Nationalist-Socialist Arabs such as Saddam – together, it has turned most of the world against, and it has increased the chances for a terror attack on America.

But of course, such an attack would be an excuse for even more “security” measures and more attacks on our freedoms. It is no surprise that according to our government and many of our sunshine “patriots” we must give up or freedom in order to defend it.
 Claiming to love our soldiers while cutting their benefits if they happened to have earned another government pension, as the Republican administration has just done. And the proposed budget of President Bush cuts the taxes for millionaires $90,000 a year while also significantly cutting veterans’ benefits.

Hypocrisy by U.S. citizens is:

 Supporting the war and yet not knowing that al-Qaida and Saddam hate each other (instead of being allies as 42 percent of Americans believe) and thinking some of the hijackers were Iraqi (as almost half of Americans believe). A good citizen is not ignorant about our country’s wars, and they should know what is in the U.S. Constitution as well.
 Saying you support our soldiers and then cheering them off to an undeclared, illegal, immoral war.
 Saying you’re a patriot when you won’t think for yourself and instead slavishly accept every pronouncement the government spoon-feeds you.
 Saying you believe in American values and those who don’t toe the government’s line should shut-up and move to Iraq.

Are we really supposed to believe that all these “patriots” saying “shut-up, don’t think for yourself just support President George” would have been patriots in 1776?

We know they would be Tories. Slavish and ignorant followers of authority are not lovers of freedom; they are not true patriots. The revolutionaries of 1776 knew that our own government was potentially the greatest threat to our freedom.

Lincoln and many others predicted that America would never be conquered, but rather it would fall within. Our government’s quest for empire and our fear of its consequences already have put the Constitution in peril.

Meanwhile Attorney General John Ashcroft secretly prepares “Patriot” Act II. As every great American leader (such as the recently quoted Teddy Roosevelt) has said, it isn’t our right to dissent from our government when we think it is wrong, it is our duty.

This analysis is not an attack on our brave soldiers. They are following orders, thinking that is what is best for America. They deserve better from their leaders and especially from their fellow citizens.

They deserve, at the least, to fight and die in a declared war. Why can’t they even have that?

Charles Hables Gray is an associate professor of Cultural Studies of Science and Technology and of Computer Science at the University of Great Falls. His most recent books include Postmodern War (1997) on contemporary conflict, and Information, Power and Peace (Routledge, 2002) on how new information technologies affect the chances for global peace.
 
Speaking of Hypocracy

Why the massive anti-war protests now...?

Where were these people when Clinton sent in troops to Bosnia and Kosovo without the support of the UN Security Council...?

Where were the protests against Russia for going into Chechnya and killing thousands...?

Why did the British public demand Clinton send in ground troops into the Balkans, yet many are still opposed to this...?
 
Thanks for the link.

It doesn't change the fact that we did not have the approval of many countries, including several on the Security Council. Where was the outcry for going into a military operation against the UN Security Council...?
 
Gunner Dailey said:
Thanks for the link.

It doesn't change the fact that we did not have the approval of many countries, including several on the Security Council. Where was the outcry for going into a military operation against the UN Security Council...?

The UN was already in Bosnia when they asked for our help.

We were not going against them.
 
Why is it that when ever the United States does something we get yelled at?

If we have permission we get yell at

If another country does something it's Don't do that again ok

there is no right or wrong it seems when it is another country

but it is alway wrong when you are the United States
 
#1. Cancel that paper......

#2. Ignore any egghead fuck with letters after their name that claim we need the world's permission to act on our own security issues.

#3. Use your own judgement based on your common sense on what's just or not. So many out there have their own sinster agenda in their positions.

Most EU countries would have a party if D.C. or N.Y. got nuked.
*Read my second sig line, written 59 years ago.
 
Re: #1. Cancel that paper......

Lost Cause said:
#2. Ignore any egghead fuck with letters after their name that claim we need the world's permission to act on our own security issues.

#3. Use your own judgement based on your common sense on what's just or not. So many out there have their own sinster agenda in their positions.


You're the coolest, AC.

But what does Iraq have to do with "our own security issues?"
 
Re: #1. Cancel that paper......

Lost Cause said:
#2. Ignore any egghead fuck with letters after their name that claim we need the world's permission to act on our own security issues.

I didn't see that as his point, but ok.

#3. Use your own judgement based on your common sense on what's just or not.

I am. I really liked what he had to say and summed up a lot of my views.

 
Azwed said:
The UN was already in Bosnia when they asked for our help.

We were not going against them.


Yes, NATO did come to the resolution to protect the UN troops there. What were we doing there in the first place...? Didn't we respect a nations soveign rights...? The Chinese and Russians didn't approve of intervention.
 
Gunner Dailey said:
Yes, NATO did come to the resolution to protect the UN troops there. What were we doing there in the first place...? Didn't we respect a nations soveign rights...? The Chinese and Russians didn't approve of intervention.

The UN was already there in Bosnia if you don't see the fundamental difference between that and Iraq then there is no hope for you.
 
Why is it that exremists on both sides of this issue have to make such sweeping, obviously inaccurate generalizations about what Americans do and think?

We're quite an interesting mix. Really.
 
If you haven't paid attention in the last couple of months..

I can't help it.
I'm not privy to the intell of the NSA/CIA, and I don't pretend to know what they think. Any arguments against the operation is based on outdated information/intell.
I do know they are a threat by proxy to the western world, and most of the left forget Iraq's assassination plot against President GHW Bush.
Again, we don't need the world to tell us what we need to do, if the government is in error, the elections will show that.

A good source: http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/
 
sigh said:
LOL...I guess I missed that one. Where do I sign up? Is there an initiation ritual? I'd be willing to submit to a spanking with a large wooden paddle if that's.......

err, nevermind. We'll talk later, okay?

Have your people contact my people and we will make the arangments.
 
Azwed said:
The UN was already there in Bosnia if you don't see the fundamental difference between that and Iraq then there is no hope for you.


What was the UN doing there Azwed...?

Were you protesting because they didn't have a consesus agreement to go in...? There WAS international opposition to intervention, but I didn't see a single American protesting, claiming it as unjust intervention, or worried about how those who didn't agree with us on the issue were going to react...?

Just admit that a good portion of the anti-war movement is really anti-Bush. They supported Clinton's expeditions around the globe unquestioned.
 
Re: If you haven't paid attention in the last couple of months..

Lost Cause said:
I can't help it.
I'm not privy to the intell of the NSA/CIA, and I don't pretend to know what they think. Any arguments against the operation is based on outdated information/intell.

*head slap* Of course! Anyone who is against the war is simply misinformed! Only those with ALL the facts (like the CIA/NSA intell to which you are not privy) are pro-war.


I do know they are a threat by proxy to the western world, and most of the left forget Iraq's assassination plot against President GHW Bush.

Come now, AC. Let you would let one of us left-wingers to just pull something like that out of our asses with no back-up or attribution.


Again, we don't need the world to tell us what we need to do

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!1 To hell with the rest of the non-American world.


Oh, good. A completely objective source. Guess I've got some reading to do. Catch ya later, AC!
 
Gunner Dailey said:
What was the UN doing there Azwed...?

Were you protesting because they didn't have a consesus agreement to go in...? There WAS international opposition to intervention, but I didn't see a single American protesting, claiming it as unjust intervention, or worried about how those who didn't agree with us on the issue were going to react...?


There will always be international opposition to anything like this just like there are always a few people who vote against military actions in congress.

You can't compare the small amount of opposition to action in Bosnia to the massive amount of opposition to action in Iraq.


Just admit that a good portion of the anti-war movement is really anti-Bush. They supported Clinton's expeditions around the globe unquestioned.


Sure some of them are anti-bush peace demonstrators are generaly liberal not conservative.

There is a fundamental difference between the actions that Clinton took around the world, mainly airstrikes or limited force to accomplish limited goals, and invading a country to overthrow its leadership when they have not attacked us. Yes Saddam/Iraq/WMD are all threats to the US but I wouldn't label anyone as a number one threat. Even if WMD are your number one threat the Pakistan-India situation or N. Korea are more likely candidates for WMD proliferation.

I don't trust Bush at all and think the way we went about seeking action in Iraq was horribly flawed but I am not against the war on its most basic level.

War is an unfortunate but at times necessary evil in the world. I recognize that going to war is necessary at times but I feel the Admin went into this situation with the feeling that we would go to war no matter what. That is someting I cannot agree with.
 
Azwed said:
Sure some of them are anti-bush peace demonstrators are generaly liberal not conservative.

I think you would agree those playing partisan politics over National security have lost all sense. This applies to any of the political parties, and I realize they have all done it in some form at one time or another. It's brutally apparent when you take quotes from the Bill Clinton's and Tom Daschle's from the past decade and apply it to their viewpoints now. It is partisan politics and an anti-Bush adjenda that is driving much of this.


There is a fundamental difference between the actions that Clinton took around the world, mainly airstrikes or limited force to accomplish limited goals, and invading a country to overthrow its leadership when they have not attacked us. Yes Saddam/Iraq/WMD are all threats to the US but I wouldn't label anyone as a number one threat. Even if WMD are your number one threat the Pakistan-India situation or N. Korea are more likely candidates for WMD proliferation.


I agree that the other list of your candidates are cause for concern.


I don't trust Bush at all and think the way we went about seeking action in Iraq was horribly flawed but I am not against the war on its most basic level.

War is an unfortunate but at times necessary evil in the world. I recognize that going to war is necessary at times but I feel the Admin went into this situation with the feeling that we would go to war no matter what. That is someting I cannot agree with.


I can respect your viewpoint, you are as strongly opposed to this as I am in favor of this action (I hate saying I am pro-war because that is not the case).

Here is an interesting letter. I wonder how many people he could've convinced to invade Afghanistan before Sept 11 in order to attack Al Qaeda and prevent 11 Sept...?

On July 4, 1999, President Clinton sent the following letter to the speaker of the House of Representatives and the president of the Senate, declaring a "national emergency," effective at 12:10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time on July 6, 1999, in response to the "unusual and extraordinary threat" posed by the Taliban-dominated government of Afghanistan.

Pursuant to section 204(b) of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(b) and section 301 of the National Emergencies Act, 50 U.S.C. 1631, I hereby report that I have exercised my statutory authority to declare a National emergency with respect to the threat to the United States posed by the actions and policies of the Afghan Taliban and have issued an executive order to deal with this threat.

The actions and policies of the Afghan Taliban pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States. The Taliban continues to provide safe haven to Usama bin Ladin allowing him and the Al-Qaida organization to operate from Taliban-controlled territory a network of terrorist training camps and to use Afghanistan as a base from which to sponsor terrorist operations against the United States.

Usama bin Ladin and the Al-Qaida organization have been involved in at least two separate attacks against the United States. On August 7, 1998, the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, were attacked using powerful explosive truck bombs. The following people have been indicted for criminal activity against the United States in connection with Usama bin Ladin and/or the Al-Qaida organization: Usama bin Ladin, his military commander Muhammed Atef, Wadih El Hage, Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, Mohammed Sadeek Odeh, Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-Owhali, Mustafa Mohammed Fadhil, Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, Fahid Mohommed Ally Msalam, Sheikh Ahmed Salim Swedan, Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, Ali Mohammed, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and Khaled Al Fawwaz. In addition, bin Ladin and his network are currently planning additional attacks against U.S. interests and nationals.

Since at least 1998 and up to the date of the Executive order, the Taliban has continued to provide bin Ladin with safe haven and security, allowing him the necessary freedom to operate. Repeated efforts by the United States to persuade the Taliban to expel bin Ladin to a third country where he can be brought to justice for his crimes have failed. The United States has also attempted to apply pressure on the Taliban both directly and through frontline states in a position to influence Taliban behavior. Despite these efforts, the Taliban has not only continued, but has also deepened its support for, and its relationship with, Usama bin Ladin and associated terrorist networks.

Accordingly, I have concluded that the actions and policies of the Taliban pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States. I have, therefore, exercised my statutory authority and issued an Executive order which … :

blocks all property and interests in property of the Taliban, … ;
prohibits any transaction or dealing by United States persons or within the United States in property … ;
prohibits … any goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to the territory of Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban or to the Taliban; and
prohibits the importation into the United States of any goods, software, technology, or services owned or controlled by the Taliban or from the territory of Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban.

The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State, is directed to authorize commercial sales of agricultural commodities and products, medicine and medical equipment, for civilian end use in the territory of Afghanistan controlled by the Taliban under appropriate safeguards to prevent diversion to military, paramilitary, or terrorist end-users or end-use or to political end-use. This order and subsequent licenses will likewise allow humanitarian, diplomatic, and journalistic activities to continue. …

The measures taken in this order will immediately demonstrate to the Taliban the seriousness of our concern over its support for terrorists and terrorist networks, and increase the international isolation of the Taliban. The blocking of the Taliban's property and the other prohibitions imposed under this executive order will further limit the Taliban's ability to facilitate and support terrorists and terrorist networks. It is particularly important for the United States to demonstrate to the Taliban the necessity of conforming to accepted norms of international behavior.
 
I did not say I was against the war. I said I was not against it at its most basic level.

In the end I think we were given no choice but to go to war but I think that many of our options were elminated by the Admin before the diplomatic process even started.

As to the Taliban we never would have gotten the necessary support to invade Afghanistan like Bush did back in 1998.

For the most part Americans are totally cluless about the world outside their borders. I think this is changing because of recent events but is still for the most part the case.

We probably could have gotten support for air strikes on suspected terrorst camps in Afgahnistan and I know for sure special forces operations would not have been a problem. An invasion would not have happend. We never would have been able to convince Pakistan let alone our own people.

Clinton tried to get Bin laden on several ocassions and the CIA was tracking him for a while by using the signal from has SatPhone but they lost hime before they could nab him.

I am pulling the details of this story from the far back of my brain so some of it maybe wrong. The CIA was trackign Bin Laden because he was making calls from his satelite cell phone. They were trying to get a patern of his movements so they could predict where he and his top leadership was. Unfortunately before they could get enough info he stopped using the cell phone and they lost him.

Even if we had invaded Afghanistan I doubt that would have stopped the attacks. Weren't most of the hijackers already in the US by 1998? Maybe we could have gotten the right info to catch them but maybe not. If the hijackers were already in the US they would have been for the most part self suficient.
 
The assassination plot on GHB wasn't terrorism Lost Cause, those guys were innocent freedom fighters taking out the oppressors.
 
I agree with most of your post Azwed. But clearly Clinton viewed this as a major problem back in 1998 and he:

* blocks all property and interests in property of the Taliban, … ;
prohibits any transaction or dealing by United States persons or within the United States in property … ;

* prohibits … any goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to the territory of Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban or to the Taliban; and

* prohibits the importation into the United States of any goods, software, technology, or services owned or controlled by the Taliban or from the territory of Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban.

Isn't that a bit of a slap on the wrist for a problem that he viewed as highly important...? I know we wouldn't had any support in 98, and I am not even trying to insinuate that we should've invaded Afghanistan in 98...but if we had it might have changed the sequence of events. Perhaps America would've woke up to the threats of terrorism before 11 Sept...?

"The measures taken in this order will immediately demonstrate to the Taliban the seriousness of our concern over its support for terrorists and terrorist networks, and increase the international isolation of the Taliban. The blocking of the Taliban's property and the other prohibitions imposed under this executive order will further limit the Taliban's ability to facilitate and support terrorists and terrorist networks." - Clinton

I guess he badly miscalculated on that assesment. Clinton was constantly trying to reach out to the middle east during his administration, the American Muslim Alliance has long been supporters of the Clinton Administration. He helped Muslims out in Kosovo and Bosnia, and the Oslo accords came about during his time. It's well understood he had a much more sympathetic view towards the plight of the Arab world.

So why did all of this happen during his adminstration...?

25 Jan 1993 Islamic gunman kills 2 CIA agents outside headquarters in Langley, VA
26 Feb 1993 Islamic terrorists group explodes a bomb at the World Trade Center, killing six.
14 Apr 1993 Iraqi Intelligence attempts to assassinate former US President Bush in Kuwait.
Oct 1993 18 US servicemen killed in Somalia by fighters affiliated and trained by Al Qaeda.
8 Mar 1995 2 US diplomats killed by Islamic gunment in drive by shooting in Karachi, Pakistan.
9 Apr 1995 One American is among 8 total killed by 2 Hamas suicide bombers in Gaza Strip.
4 July 1995 2 US citizens among six kidnapped in India by Kashmir Islamic group.
21 Aug 1995 US citizen among 5 killed in Jerusalem when a bus is exploded by Hamas.
13 Nov 1995 Truck bomb explodes at US National Guard facility in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, killing 7.
25 Feb 1996 2 US citizens among 26 killed in Jeruslam by Hamas suicide bombing.
25 June 1996 The Khobar Towers is bombed in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 US soldiers.
23 Feb 1997 Palestinian gunmen open fires on observation deck of Empire State building and kills 1.
12 Nov 1997 4 US businessmen killed in driveby as they left their Karachi hotel. Islamic Jihad took claim.
June 1998 Rocket attack against US embassy in Beirut, Lebanon
7 Aug 1998 North African US embassy bombing by Al Qaeda in Tanzania & Kenya kills 200+
1999-2000 Planning for September 11th attack that would kill 2800+ Americans
12 Aug 2000 4 US citizens taken hostage in Uzbekistan by IMU (Islamic) and later escape.
12 Oct 2000 USS Cole is bombed in Aden, Yemen and kills 17 US sailors.

Is that how Radical Islam repays the US for adopting a more friendlier approach to the middle east...?
 
Hello_Kitten said:
Charles Hables Gray is an associate professor of Cultural Studies of Science and Technology and of Computer Science at the University of Great Falls. His most recent books include Postmodern War (1997) on contemporary conflict, and Information, Power and Peace (Routledge, 2002) on how new information technologies affect the chances for global peace.
[/B]
Well, now we know why he's teaching there.

:rolleyes:

TB4p
 
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