Homophobia

[bronzeage]

I'd have to see all the evidence.

The defendant admits to the facts of the case. He hit the victim over the head with a baseball bat. He claims the victim made a sexual invitation.

Would you consider the defendant's emotional stress over the invitation to be a justification for his reaction, or a mitigating factor in his sentence?

Bear in mind, you live in a state where it is legal to shoot a man dead, if he frightens you.

 

[squarejohn]

The defendant admits to the facts of the case. He hit the victim over the head with a baseball bat. He claims the victim made a sexual invitation.

Would you consider the defendant's emotional stress over the invitation to be a justification for his reaction, or a mitigating factor in his sentence?

Bear in mind, you live in a state where it is legal to shoot a man dead, if he frightens you.

A sexual invitation is hardly frightening. My verdict would be, "Guilty as charged."

 

[Stella_Omega]

A sexual invitation is hardly frightening. My verdict would be, "Guilty as charged."

You are hereby appointed to the judiciary bench of the state of Louisiana.

Hope no one shoots you for being one of them faggit lovers.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I've seen people come apart because of Merry Christmas, and I dont think they secretly wanted to be elves.

 

[Boota]

Any time I hear a homophobic statement I immediately assume latent homosexuality on the part of the speaker. That's just what it sounds like to me. I can't imagine being so concerned as to make statements like that without some deep seated reason. A guy I knew in high school always made homophobic statements, out of the blue, when it was the furthest thing from the subject. He finally came out a few years after high school and no one was surprised in the slightest.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOOTA

The problem with your assumption is other objects within the class of fear called phobia....like bridges or dogs or snakes. Youre correct to a degree that some people over-react because of ambivalence for whatever they fear. But a friend of mine wont go near an english pea, and animals are notorious for avoiding objects that harmed them in the past And you might be talking about something we call a negative transference.

Last night I read a memoir of Nazi Germany; the sight of circumsized dicks made plenty of people crazy cuz mostly Jews had circumsized dicks. I doubt the German women wanted dicks of their own.

 

[sr71plt]

What do you have against me? Are you a homophobe? Or just a plain homo?
Ain't this fun?

I'm bi (sex is sex is sex), not that sexual orientation need have anything to do with an attitude of tolerance/intolerance.

I don't reject you because of whatever sexual orientation you have. I reject you because of how you portray yourself on this forum.

For starters you are no fun--to continue, you are irrelevant to Lit. and you express abhorant views to any sense of community.

 

[xssve]

Ah, I think he's just playing devils advocate, but for the record, whether or not the term "homophobia" is technically accurate or not is irrelevant, it's an idiom, and everybody knows what it means, which is the purpose of having a word to describe something to begin with.

As for forbidden fruit syndrome, I'm only partially joking: the generic male approach to understanding male sexuality is that he basically looks for a hole to stick it in, period - dogs for example, do this frequently and rather mindlessly, and presumably, the average human male is at least theoretically capable of this behavior, and at some point, in just going over the options, sex with a another man is going to occur to you - at the same time, attempting to suppress something, which is usually the first reaction to the subject of homosexuality, may actually increase the primacy of the notion, turning what may be a mild curiosity into an subconscious urge - i.e., you aren't homophobic because you're gay, you're homophobia is making you turn gay, because the thought of it is obsessing you, the old attraction/repulsion effect.

Point is, it's stupid, and you're pissing up a rope by acting out on it, if in fact you really are not inclined that way, and a form of projection, transference, or sheer disingenuousness if you are and either don't want to admit it to yourself or don't want anyone else to know, as Boota suggests.

Given it's stable incidence over the entire course of recorded history, whatever other opinion you may have about it, it isn't going to go away, and thus acting out on homophobic urges, must, rationally speaking, be motivated by something else entirely, up to and including, repressed psychopathic urges - gays and prostitutes are favorite victims of serial killers because fewer people are likely to notice them when they go missing - in short gays are an easy target, you can indulge your sadistic whims and feel socially justified by it.

i.e., whatever else it is, it's sociopathic behavior by definition, all that's left to dispute is degree.

The same thing was pretty common when it was socially acceptable to beat your wife and children back when this was still a pious nation - lot's of people endured "home correction" for no other reason than the revered father figure found it gratifying.

It may be why BDSM practitioners appear to be more psychologically stable than the general public - they're working these kinks out in a mutually satisfying and consensual way, don't need to construct elaborate justifications, and then ram those down everybodies throat.

i.e., it's not that complicated, they just like to hurt people.

It takes a lot of psychic energy, as well as time and money, to push these sociopathic friendly constructs, and it's basically dishonest, which is going to make you unhappy, unless you are in fact a clinical psychopath.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yep, xssve.

last thing on the squarejohn subject, I have sigs turned off so I didn't see his story link. Most of his stories are gay male. And they are written in a pretty authentic voice.

It's possible that sqj only fantasizes about it, and has never actually lived out those fantasies. But it's impossible to not experience homophobia in the suburbs of Louisiana, or anywhere else for that matter. Even if it's only your fantasy.

So... whatever. Me, I think there's a bottle of cheap whiskey involved.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I've had a strange relationship with homophobia - I trip a lot of gaydar. I'm effete in aspect - intellectual, not good at sports, slight of stature, empathetic. So, my Mom would make me play with the gay kids.

I'm not gay. I rate out a Kinsey 1, even though I'm quite comfortable in gay surroundings. My homophobia was experienced (and understood) as simple mean-ness, just making fun of people who are different from most people. I didn't like being mocked and stereotyped, so I just learned not to mock people who get mocked all the time. Presto. Homophobia eliminated by learning better manners.

It's only recently that I've begun to understand that, just like how my dick chubs up when women rub against me a certain way, some other guys will chub up rubbing against other guys. And how they react to that self-knowledge, especially in cultures that condemn homosexual acts, leads to some really strange psychological gymnastics. Strange, and really pathetic, yet understandable within certain cultural contexts. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.

 

[Safe_Bet]

As for forbidden fruit syndrome, I'm only partially joking: the generic male approach to understanding male sexuality is that he basically looks for a hole to stick it in, period - dogs for example, do this frequently and rather mindlessly, and presumably, the average human male is at least theoretically capable of this behavior, and at some point, in just going over the options, sex with a another man is going to occur to you - at the same time, attempting to suppress something, which is usually the first reaction to the subject of homosexuality, may actually increase the primacy of the notion, turning what may be a mild curiosity into an subconscious urge - i.e., you aren't homophobic because you're gay, you're homophobia is making you turn gay, because the thought of it is obsessing you, the old attraction/repulsion effect.

Number one, I'm not a dog and it's insulting to be compared to one. Please don't.

Number two, your premise falls flat on it's ass when you add in all of the other flavors of the LGBT community. As a lesbian I am not "looking for a hole to stick it in".

 

[Stella_Omega]

"all the flavors..."

Yeah. At another board the mods kindly created a TG forum. it soon became clear that the only thing any of us have in common is "uncomfortable in the body I was born in." The transwomen are going one way, the transmen-- very few of us-- are going elsewhere. The people who consider themselves "whatever I wake up as this morning" think those of us who say "This isn't funny, guys" are harshing their squee while the people who are profoundly uncomfortable wish the fluffy gender bunnies would stop their happy scampering...

But Amy, Huck was talking about men-- not only gay men but straight men as well, in the context of being a man himself. And damn right.


ETA: Arrgh! xssve was talking about men, right there in my face. My apologies to both of you!

 

[LaRocha]

...

It may be why BDSM practitioners appear to be more psychologically stable than the general public - they're working these kinks out in a mutually satisfying and consensual way, don't need to construct elaborate justifications, and then ram those down everybodies throat.
...

BDSM is a bit more complicated than the 'just looking for a hole to stick it in' maxim. If we take 'just looking for a hole' as our baseline of natural sex instinct for penile participants. The more layers of organization and stratagem for getting off, the less psychologically stable we'll find the participants, and usually the harder it is to get off.

 

[Safe_Bet]

"all the flavors..."

Yeah. At another board the mods kindly created a TG forum. it soon became clear that the only thing any of us have in common is "uncomfortable in the body I was born in." The transwomen are going one way, the transmen-- very few of us-- are going elsewhere. The people who consider themselves "whatever I wake up as this morning" think those of us who say "This isn't funny, guys" are harshing their squee while the people who are profoundly uncomfortable wish the fluffy gender bunnies would stop their happy scampering...

But Amy, Huck was talking about men-- not only gay men but straight men as well, in the context of being a man himself. And damn right.


ETA: Arrgh! xssve was talking about men, right there in my face. My apologies to both of you!

But the concept carries over. If you believe that ALL men just want to "stick it somewhere", then that means all women "want to be stuck by anybody". As you well know, that ain't the case.

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[sr71plt]

But the concept carries over. If you believe that ALL men just want to "stick it somewhere", then that means all women "want to be stuck by anybody". As you well know, that ain't the case.

Sorry, I don't see the rationale for the concept having to carry over. This presupposes that the basic makeup of men and women is the same. I don't think it is. I pretty much agree that men basically want to stick it somewhere. I think women basically want to protect and nurture something.

 

[xssve]

Number one, I'm not a dog and it's insulting to be compared to one. Please don't.

Number two, your premise falls flat on it's ass when you add in all of the other flavors of the LGBT community. As a lesbian I am not "looking for a hole to stick it in".

I don't recall even attempting to deconstruct female sexuality, much less the various forms of hermaphroditism, psychological or otherwise.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sorry, I don't see the rationale for the concept having to carry over. This presupposes that the basic makeup of men and women is the same. I don't think it is. I pretty much agree that men basically want to stick it somewhere. I think women basically want to protect and nurture something.

Women have just as high of a sex drive as men (much often higher) so in that regards they are similar. However, a woman's perception of what constitutes sex is different, IMO.

Of course, I'm basing that belief on my own experiences and I'm pretty stone butch, which we CERTAINLY all agree provides the BEST attributes of both men and women.

 

[xssve]

I've had a strange relationship with homophobia - I trip a lot of gaydar. I'm effete in aspect - intellectual, not good at sports, slight of stature, empathetic. So, my Mom would make me play with the gay kids.

I'm not gay. I rate out a Kinsey 1, even though I'm quite comfortable in gay surroundings. My homophobia was experienced (and understood) as simple mean-ness, just making fun of people who are different from most people. I didn't like being mocked and stereotyped, so I just learned not to mock people who get mocked all the time. Presto. Homophobia eliminated by learning better manners.

It's only recently that I've begun to understand that, just like how my dick chubs up when women rub against me a certain way, some other guys will chub up rubbing against other guys. And how they react to that self-knowledge, especially in cultures that condemn homosexual acts, leads to some really strange psychological gymnastics. Strange, and really pathetic, yet understandable within certain cultural contexts. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.

This is more to the point: "gay" here is really code for something other than strict sexual preference, it refers to some sort of behavioral/role construct that may not even have anything to do with sexual preference - I remember all my head banger friends completely incredulous that Rob Halford was gay, he didn't fit the stereotype - whereas Boy George was, and remains to some degree, an object of constant derision from the get go, Rob Halford was just sort of quietly forgotten.

It's a bit like the abortion issue, when the argument gets to the stage that the realization sinks in that birth control is the most effective form of abortion prevention, it turns out that issue wasn't really about abortion at all.

 

[xssve]

And for the record, I am not suggesting any single individuals sexuality can be reduced to such an oversimplification - on the other hand, a man in England was arrested for fucking the umbrella hole in a picnic table.

 

[Verdad]

And for the record, I am not suggesting any single individuals sexuality can be reduced to such an oversimplification - on the other hand, a man in England was arrested for fucking the umbrella hole in a picnic table.

http://www.oglaf.com/noblesse/

 

[rgraham666]

Oglaf is always good for a laugh.

 

[Verdad]

Oglaf is always good for a laugh.

A friend sent me a link to it just a few days ago! A cutest discovery.

 

[xssve]

BDSM is a bit more complicated than the 'just looking for a hole to stick it in' maxim. If we take 'just looking for a hole' as our baseline of natural sex instinct for penile participants. The more layers of organization and stratagem for getting off, the less psychologically stable we'll find the participants, and usually the harder it is to get off.

Human sexuality in general is much more complicated, I'm talking about simple biology here, this is effectively the essence of reproductive behavior, semen must be introduced in proximity to the cervix while the female has a viable egg waiting - while there are many creative ways of accomplishing this, average biological behavior dictates that this be accomplished with an erect penis, no?

Given the distinct probability that humans are the only animal that understands this as an abstract cognitive truism, and even then often only via cultural transmission of abstract information, i.e., it is not innate knowledge, males of all species have evolved to stick their penis's into any likely looking hole, with the odds that eventually, they'll stumble on the right one at the right time, with a statistically significant incidence.

Certain people simply have a problem, mostly arising from internalization of abstract gender/role/behavioral constructs with the fact that all of that non-reproductive poking around turns out to have utility, value and rewards all of it's own.

There are any number of alternate or concurrent hypothesis about homophobia, it advertises ones own commitment to confining the sexual act to introducing semen in proximity to the cervix during a woman's fertile period, and presumably, some women find that attractive, or at least claim they do, thus it can be seen as a sort of trolling, albeit only marginally mindless as sticking your cock in every hole you see.

Another one is related to the serial killer pattern: any marginalized population is at higher risk for psychopathic predation, and while this is less of a problem in small populations, in large, mobile populations it is at least a statical possibility that one may become a victim of random predation, there may be a subconscious motive to reduce ones target profile by setting up one segment of the population as easier targets, doesn't really matter who it is, or for what reason, as long as you can dissociate your self from them in some way.

Herd behavior basically, forcing the "weaker" members towards the outer perimeter of the herd, where they are more vulnerable to predators, and when it does happen, they alerts the herd that predators are around - you could call it "sacrificial social anode" theory.

But the forage is better, and the fringe is where the plumpest, juiciest berries are found, as opposed to the overgrazed middle - in evolution, like economics, all the action is on the margins.

 

[xssve]

I have had on my mind for some time now, for example, a story idea where a group of males have a contest to impregnate a female (possibly at her request) by masturbating into her previously fisted and gaping vagina, and letting the best man, or sperm, win.

Now while this is on the surface, heterosexual and satisfies the reproductive goal, the average evangelical would probably think the whole thing was pretty gay.