Holocaust Tour

[WriterDom]

I bolded the part you want the 'most' part. Just so you're clear 'most' does not equal 'all'.

AND you are not muslim, so therefore don't get as much leeway in bitching about them. I know this is dificult, but people who are part of a group of people get to bitch about that group of people. Black people get to bitch about black people, gay people get to bitch about gay people, and religions get to bitch about their own religion. I mean, seriously. DUH! I am a christian, I can bitch about Christianity all I want. If a muslim came on her and said 'muslims' like to blow people up, no one would say a thing. You are bitch about political correctness not applying to Christians - you're right and you just proved it. And you HAVE said things about muslims that have pissed people off, so don't go there. Just because I don't post, doesn't mean I don't read threads.

That said, you're an idiot and I'm done with this conversation.

Good. Since you have passed judgement on over a billion people (be it your own, or not) you can go now.

And this is America. We can bitch about what we want. For now, anyway.

 

[intothewoods]

Good. Since you have passed judgement on over a billion people (be it your own, or not) you can go now.

And this is America. We can bitch about what we want. For now, anyway.

To bring this kinda back to the OP, American or not, you can do whatever you want and damn the consequences if you like. I'm not talking about the specifics of either of your posts, but I'm thinking more broadly about the consequences of small actions. You can spew racist shit if you want to. You can ignore genocide in other countries. You can stand by while citizens are brought to, say, internment camps for the Japanese. You can complain about your own kind in a way that sounds inflammatory. All of our actions have consequences. Some bigger than others. Going to a concentration camp or a holocaust museum is educational -- we should know the history -- but not many will think about how a country gets there. Look at the ways in which we all participate or stay silent in the face of ugliness to some extent.

 

[midwestyankee]

To bring this kinda back to the OP, American or not, you can do whatever you want and damn the consequences if you like. I'm not talking about the specifics of either of your posts, but I'm thinking more broadly about the consequences of small actions. You can spew racist shit if you want to. You can ignore genocide in other countries. You can stand by while citizens are brought to, say, internment camps for the Japanese. You can complain about your own kind in a way that sounds inflammatory. All of our actions have consequences. Some bigger than others. Going to a concentration camp or a holocaust museum is educational -- we should know the history -- but not many will think about how a country gets there. Look at the ways in which we all participate or stay silent in the face of ugliness to some extent.

Quoted for truth.

 

[VelvetSin]

I agree completely that we don't live in a perfect world. Too many just look the other way when it's someone else in trouble. It happens today, on our own U. S. streets. People are mugged and murdered in broad daylight and nobody sees anything.

And it doesn't have to be stranger on stranger. A very good friend of mine was killed by her own beloved son and 9 year old grandson. The son was in the will to get her money when she died, but I guess she didn't die soon enough. The grandson cracked during interrogation and now the son is in prison for life. I just hope my friend didn't know who hit her over the head from behind.

But, even though we live in a cruel world, I still like to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty. I'd like to think there will be a time when, with enough thought provoking communication, there will eventually be a generation that makes a change.

It happens today on our streets, in our government, and everywhere else. Many of the atrocities mentioned were done with the knowledge if not behind-the-scenes support of some of the more “forward thinking” governments, such as the U.K., U.S, and so on. There's always a lot of finger-pointing at the most vocally responsible or opposed, but I personally believe the true blame rests on anyone that did nothing to stop it. “Bullies” will always seek out the weak and be the wastes of oxygen they are, but left unchecked will continue and it'll happen again and again. Maybe the silent bystanders did not pull a trigger, or flip a switch, or dig a mass grave, but failure to stop it has moral consequences all its own.

I don't see it as a “glass half empty” or “half full” issue, but rather a matter of accountability of humanity to itself. Optimism or pessimism doesn't factor into basic responsibility, IMO. While I do hope someday another generation, maybe one already breathing, will decide to set aside differences and follow a “live and let live” model, that lends complexities all its own unless / until the rest of the world adopts policies where equality of gender, race, religion, orientations, and everything else is held supreme. But then “we” are pushing our beliefs on others, and that inspires rants and protests anew amongst self-proclaimed human rights advocates. That's an entirely different (and kinda laughable) discussion all it's own, though. Can't have it both ways, but few seem to recognize that simple fact.

To bring this kinda back to the OP, American or not, you can do whatever you want and damn the consequences if you like. I'm not talking about the specifics of either of your posts, but I'm thinking more broadly about the consequences of small actions. You can spew racist shit if you want to. You can ignore genocide in other countries. You can stand by while citizens are brought to, say, internment camps for the Japanese. You can complain about your own kind in a way that sounds inflammatory. All of our actions have consequences. Some bigger than others. Going to a concentration camp or a holocaust museum is educational -- we should know the history -- but not many will think about how a country gets there. Look at the ways in which we all participate or stay silent in the face of ugliness to some extent.

This! Exactly. I definitely wasn't trying to say visiting Holocaust memorials and learning about a terrible atrocity (since the Holocaust is one of the only such events that was recorded to such an extent and preserved as a learning experience) isn't educational or worthwhile, but I don't think many get enough out of the trip beyond the t-shirt and memories of how sad it was. The biggest lesson I ever learned from studying these sorts of events is how much of it occurred because others were too afraid or self-absorbed or (whatever) to intervene.

 

[Etoile]

The most gut-wrenching place I ever visited was the Peace Park in Hiroshima.

I cried there. That was hard.

The Holocaust Museum is hard too, not as bad for me as Hiroshima because the latter had the guilt factor, but still hard. I went once when it opened, and once about 5 or 7 years ago. It stays with you though. I'd definitely go on the your mentioned here. I an a very firm believer in preserving the past, and sad or hard stuff is no exception.

 

[WriterDom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIJ_hFPDFE

 

[JMohegan]

Going to a concentration camp or a holocaust museum is educational -- we should know the history -- but not many will think about how a country gets there.

Agreed. And your suggestion for how people can educate themselves on that latter point is ......?

I wasn't kidding about Howard Zinn. I think his text should be required reading in every high school.

Not that I'm holding my breath. Americans aren't taught to think that way, and they're taught differently for a reason.

 

[JMohegan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIJ_hFPDFE

How dare you malign our men in uniform, and suggest that America has anything to apologize for.

[/Palin, Romney, Gingrich, et al]

 

[teknight]

Agreed. And your suggestion for how people can educate themselves on that latter point is ......?

I wasn't kidding about Howard Zinn. I think his text should be required reading in every high school.

Not that I'm holding my breath. Americans aren't taught to think that way, and they're taught differently for a reason.

How do you mean?

 

[intothewoods]

Agreed. And your suggestion for how people can educate themselves on that latter point is ......?

I wasn't kidding about Howard Zinn. I think his text should be required reading in every high school.

Not that I'm holding my breath. Americans aren't taught to think that way, and they're taught differently for a reason.

Well, for starters, one thing I like about the holocaust museum in DC is that it's not limited to the German holocaust. That's more of a critique of Jewish culture though. Another example - I think the stories of the Torah are interesting and rich, but it's limiting and isolating to read them without applying the lessons to other peoples.

Anyway. We do need to be willing to think critically about group think and individualism, propaganda, power...I could go on. A huge limitation in this country is how politicized everything is, including education. For some people, the mere mention of Howard Zinn makes them see red, er, so to speak.

Is it much different in schools in other countries? I mean, obviously our educational system is terrible overall, but are textbooks actually more critical of the government in other countries?

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

Agreed. And your suggestion for how people can educate themselves on that latter point is ......?


Not that I'm holding my breath. Americans aren't taught to think that way, and they're taught differently for a reason.

I did post-grad Modern European history under a professor who frequently commented : "Those who understand don't really need the explanations, and for those who don't understand, all the explanations in the world never help." True -- rather Zen like -- but true.

Second, my father always said : "When you go to a Church school, you learn about the world through those who control the Church; when you go to a state school you learn the world from the prospective of those who control the levers of state power."

If you really want to understand the world, you will have to dig it out for yourself. The answers to most questions are there, but it is not in the interest of those in power to let you look behind the curtains that they have drawn.

 

[intothewoods]

To keep it a bit more concrete, I guess my original point was that in high school we study the gore of the holocaust more than Hitler's rise to power. You do look at it a little bit, but there's not much of an effort to relate it to current events. Or our everyday lives.

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

To keep it a bit more concrete, I guess my original point was that in high school we study the gore of the holocaust more than Hitler's rise to power. You do look at it a little bit, but there's not much of an effort to relate it to current events. Or our everyday lives.

emphasis added

There is every good reason to NOT relate to our situation. If all the lies about the Third Reich were laid end to end I could walk to the moon on them. Every secondary school pupil should be required to view the Leni Riefenstahl propaganda film Triumph Of The Will. The opening fifteen minutes is the motorcade from the airport to the center of Nuremberg. The look of total ecstasy on the faces of the tens of thousands of people lining the roadway is something never to be forgotten. Talk to intelligent and independent thinking Germans who lived through it and you will hear unbelievable stories of the miraculous cures experienced by those who attended the rallies. Cancer, and heart trouble were completely cured by the German Messiah.

Oh, and just a note: the only two nations with the level of private gun ownership that the USA has, were Joseph Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Third Reich. The old crap about the people being disarmed and unable to defend themselves is a most convenient lie. Nobody defends himself against the person whom he worships.

In short, those who yank the chains, are never going to discuss the methods that they use to make the puppets dance.

 

[teknight]

To keep it a bit more concrete, I guess my original point was that in high school we study the gore of the holocaust more than Hitler's rise to power. You do look at it a little bit, but there's not much of an effort to relate it to current events. Or our everyday lives.

Not to say that high schoolers are dumb or anything, but Hitler's (or Stalin's or any other dictator's) ascent to power is a very, very complicated topic, that, quite frankly could be a PhD Thesis (or a History channel special ). That's not to say that the topic shouldn't be taught, but it might not be doing it justice, given the inherent complexity.

Ultimately it boils down to responsibility, and philosophy, theology, psychology have all tried to figure that one out....

 

[JMohegan]

I did post-grad Modern European history under a professor who frequently commented : "Those who understand don't really need the explanations, and for those who don't understand, all the explanations in the world never help." True -- rather Zen like -- but true.

Second, my father always said : "When you go to a Church school, you learn about the world through those who control the Church; when you go to a state school you learn the world from the prospective of those who control the levers of state power."

If you really want to understand the world, you will have to dig it out for yourself. The answers to most questions are there, but it is not in the interest of those in power to let you look behind the curtains that they have drawn.

Your father sounds a lot like mine.

As for your professor, I don't know. Not sure if people can't understand, or just plain don't want to. It's not exactly comforting.

 

[Homburg]

There's a war museum here locally. It's a teeny little thing, but very well done. One section though, wow, it is burned into my brain. They have a section of concrete and barbed wire wall from one of the concentration camps, and on the wall behind it is a full size black and white photo of what you saw staring through that fence from the inside.

There is nothing else in this section of the museum, and it is very starkly presented. The whole display hit me like a slap to the face, turned my stomach, and made me simultaneously think, and want to cry for the people that saw this side of the fence when it was in place.

It was not personal to me. At that point in my life I would've had trouble pointing to one Jewish person I knew, but that gut recognition of misery, and cold inhuman tragedy does not need to be personal.

--

Maybe you can refresh my memory about other religious people here who post about their religion. With all our Hindu and Muslim posters.

Hi, I'm an atheist and I bitch about Atheists all the time (note the difference. It's a subtle one so I figured I'd point it out.)

I've also seen Netz do more than complain about about acid-throwing Jews. Same with MIS and a few others. I can't say that I've seen any Muslims, but that is probably because too many Muslims are keeping their religion to themselves out of fear.

 

[DVS]

It happens today on our streets, in our government, and everywhere else. Many of the atrocities mentioned were done with the knowledge if not behind-the-scenes support of some of the more “forward thinking” governments, such as the U.K., U.S, and so on. There's always a lot of finger-pointing at the most vocally responsible or opposed, but I personally believe the true blame rests on anyone that did nothing to stop it. “Bullies” will always seek out the weak and be the wastes of oxygen they are, but left unchecked will continue and it'll happen again and again. Maybe the silent bystanders did not pull a trigger, or flip a switch, or dig a mass grave, but failure to stop it has moral consequences all its own.

I don't see it as a “glass half empty” or “half full” issue, but rather a matter of accountability of humanity to itself. Optimism or pessimism doesn't factor into basic responsibility, IMO. While I do hope someday another generation, maybe one already breathing, will decide to set aside differences and follow a “live and let live” model, that lends complexities all its own unless / until the rest of the world adopts policies where equality of gender, race, religion, orientations, and everything else is held supreme. But then “we” are pushing our beliefs on others, and that inspires rants and protests anew amongst self-proclaimed human rights advocates. That's an entirely different (and kinda laughable) discussion all it's own, though. Can't have it both ways, but few seem to recognize that simple fact.

What I meant when I said I still like to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty, we live in a cruel world but I like to think that the majority of the people in the world are good people. And I like to think that when someone sees someone else in trouble, they will try to help, even if it's just to call 911. That's the glass half full.

What we see on the TV and in news print is the story that caught the headlines. Just because we saw someone standing on the street and not even thinking about calling the cops when someone was being hurt, that doesn't mean everybody would act like that. We hear the story of someone who hits someone with their car and speeds off without a a care for the person they hit, because it's opposite of what we like to think most people would do.

But, there are bad people in the world. There are those who will hurt someone else just because it benefits their "cause". Insert Fred Phelps here. When people with that kind of mindset get into a position of power, we have the potential for atrocities in our world because they have a skewed outlook on life.

As sad as that is, and as massive as some of these atrocities become, I still think the people capable of that are in the minority. Unfortunately, the whole Phelps family has been brought up that way. That would be the glass half empty.

 

[SirLeo]

I cried there. That was hard.

The Holocaust Museum is hard too, not as bad for me as Hiroshima because the latter had the guilt factor, but still hard. I went once when it opened, and once about 5 or 7 years ago. It stays with you though. I'd definitely go on the your mentioned here. I an a very firm believer in preserving the past, and sad or hard stuff is no exception.

I never cried so much as when I toured the Holocaust Museum. It took me about 6 hours to go through and another 6 hours to recover afterwards.

The sad thing is that this is the human history, it repeats itself since we have recorded records we have records of our terrible inhumanity towards each other. So every time evil lashes out it is imperative that good people respond and not let evil get the upper hand. Even more important is to continually try to evolve and give good the upper hand...

 

[VelvetSin]

What I meant when I said I still like to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty, we live in a cruel world but I like to think that the majority of the people in the world are good people.

I see what you're saying now, and agree to a point. Most people on the planet could not commit murder simply for the sake of it, and will respond in some way if a lack of any involvement will obviously have dire consequences for someone nearby.

And I like to think that when someone sees someone else in trouble, they will try to help, even if it's just to call 911. That's the glass half full.

I think the method and level of involvement for the average person is inversely proportional to the amount of inconvenience it might bring. For example, if in a grocery store and someone slips and falls in front of a person, most people would help the fallen person up, inquire if they are okay, and find someone that works at the store if not, but it's not much of an inconvenience to do that. On the other hand, if a car accident happens and that same person witnesses it but then sees someone else pull over, I think it's more likely than not that most people will continue on their way to avoid involvement because waiting for the police to fill out a witness report and possibly get called multiple times by insurance companies is inconvenient, might make them late for work, might dirty their work clothes, and so on. Even in a minor fender bender, both parties are far more likely to remain honest and tell the police exactly what happened if uninvolved witnesses are around to tell it like they saw it, but even fender benders that happen on crowded streets rarely have witnesses to report anything.

Also, the more removed a person is from a situation, the less important or motivating it often seems unless it's a popular bandwagon item and it's the cool thing to do. When something is happening an ocean or more away, it's difficult to consider the implications of that over everyday matters immediately in front of us.

I don't know, maybe I am a "glass half empty" person, but I tend to call it more realistic. I think the vast majority of the world does not intentionally look the other way when things happen, and like I said above, I think most will get involved if it is obvious that failure to do something will result in serious injury to someone else (that they can see as an obvious victim), but I also think many of those same people will look the other way if they can appease their conscience with something like "someone else will help," or "I would if it wouldn't make me late to a meeting," or "I'm just one person so it wouldn't make any difference."

I guess what I'm saying is, I think it's a slippery slope. Looking the other way for minor things makes it easier to look the other way for slightly larger things, until it just becomes second nature.

What we see on the TV and in news print is the story that caught the headlines. Just because we saw someone standing on the street and not even thinking about calling the cops when someone was being hurt, that doesn't mean everybody would act like that. We hear the story of someone who hits someone with their car and speeds off without a a care for the person they hit, because it's opposite of what we like to think most people would do.

But, there are bad people in the world. There are those who will hurt someone else just because it benefits their "cause". Insert Fred Phelps here. When people with that kind of mindset get into a position of power, we have the potential for atrocities in our world because they have a skewed outlook on life.

As sad as that is, and as massive as some of these atrocities become, I still think the people capable of that are in the minority. Unfortunately, the whole Phelps family has been brought up that way. That would be the glass half empty.

Aah, the WBC is a special kind of special. I liked this approach to them.

 

[JMohegan]

What I meant when I said I still like to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty, we live in a cruel world but I like to think that the majority of the people in the world are good people. And I like to think that when someone sees someone else in trouble, they will try to help, even if it's just to call 911. That's the glass half full.

What we see on the TV and in news print is the story that caught the headlines. Just because we saw someone standing on the street and not even thinking about calling the cops when someone was being hurt, that doesn't mean everybody would act like that. We hear the story of someone who hits someone with their car and speeds off without a a care for the person they hit, because it's opposite of what we like to think most people would do.

But, there are bad people in the world. There are those who will hurt someone else just because it benefits their "cause". Insert Fred Phelps here. When people with that kind of mindset get into a position of power, we have the potential for atrocities in our world because they have a skewed outlook on life.

As sad as that is, and as massive as some of these atrocities become, I still think the people capable of that are in the minority. Unfortunately, the whole Phelps family has been brought up that way. That would be the glass half empty.

Lots of people with the Fred Phelps mindset hold positions of power in this country. Church leaders, radio and tv personalities, elected officials.

Phelps is routinely condemned for his tactics more so than his message. Others spout homophobic bullshit, yet are maintained in positions of power because of those who sit in their pews, tune in to their programs, and vote for them, regardless. Both the open concurrence and the silent acquiescence of churchgoers, audience, and voters serve to amplify the hate-filled message.

 

[00Syd]

emphasis added

There is every good reason to NOT relate to our situation. If all the lies about the Third Reich were laid end to end I could walk to the moon on them. Every secondary school pupil should be required to view the Leni Riefenstahl propaganda film Triumph Of The Will. The opening fifteen minutes is the motorcade from the airport to the center of Nuremberg. The look of total ecstasy on the faces of the tens of thousands of people lining the roadway is something never to be forgotten. Talk to intelligent and independent thinking Germans who lived through it and you will hear unbelievable stories of the miraculous cures experienced by those who attended the rallies. Cancer, and heart trouble were completely cured by the German Messiah.

Oh, and just a note: the only two nations with the level of private gun ownership that the USA has, were Joseph Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Third Reich. The old crap about the people being disarmed and unable to defend themselves is a most convenient lie. Nobody defends himself against the person whom he worships.

In short, those who yank the chains, are never going to discuss the methods that they use to make the puppets dance.

I think that everyone should have to watch Triumph of The Will, too. But of course, a lot of people would watch it and either get nothing out of it or get the wrong message because nobody is taught how to watch movies with a critical eye. I was surprised that I had to take a course on how to analyze and think critically about various media because in my opinion, if you can't already do that, then you shouldn't have been accepted to college in the first place.

 

[midwestyankee]

I think that everyone should have to watch Triumph of The Will, too. But of course, a lot of people would watch it and either get nothing out of it or get the wrong message because nobody is taught how to watch movies with a critical eye. I was surprised that I had to take a course on how to analyze and think critically about various media because in my opinion, if you can't already do that, then you shouldn't have been accepted to college in the first place.

Exactly.

Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will may be one of the four or five most powerful uses of film ever. Ever. I can not listen to Wagner without seeing that opening helicopter shot in my mind's eye.

 

[teknight]

I think that everyone should have to watch Triumph of The Will, too. But of course, a lot of people would watch it and either get nothing out of it or get the wrong message because nobody is taught how to watch movies with a critical eye. I was surprised that I had to take a course on how to analyze and think critically about various media because in my opinion, if you can't already do that, then you shouldn't have been accepted to college in the first place.

Slightly off topic here: I tutor math, and there are people going into college (and outta college) who can't do basic math. It seems to me like asking for accurate media analysis might be a reach, at least for a subset of the population. The two don't perfectly go hand in hand, but one does wonder.

Lots of people with the Fred Phelps mindset hold positions of power in this country. Church leaders, radio and tv personalities, elected officials.

Phelps is routinely condemned for his tactics more so than his message. Others spout homophobic bullshit, yet are maintained in positions of power because of those who sit in their pews, tune in to their programs, and vote for them, regardless. Both the open concurrence and the silent acquiescence of churchgoers, audience, and voters serve to amplify the hate-filled message.

That does bring up my all time favorite question: How does an open society deal with fringe extremists? You can't shut them up, 'cause it's a slippery slope, so do you just mop up on those occasions when their rhetoric becomes action, and chalk it up as the cost of doing business?

Exactly.

Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will may be one of the four or five most powerful uses of film ever. Ever. I can not listen to Wagner without seeing that opening helicopter shot in my mind's eye.

Fully off topic: you have a hilarious AV.

 

[DVS]

I see what you're saying now, and agree to a point. Most people on the planet could not commit murder simply for the sake of it, and will respond in some way if a lack of any involvement will obviously have dire consequences for someone nearby.




I think the method and level of involvement for the average person is inversely proportional to the amount of inconvenience it might bring. For example, if in a grocery store and someone slips and falls in front of a person, most people would help the fallen person up, inquire if they are okay, and find someone that works at the store if not, but it's not much of an inconvenience to do that. On the other hand, if a car accident happens and that same person witnesses it but then sees someone else pull over, I think it's more likely than not that most people will continue on their way to avoid involvement because waiting for the police to fill out a witness report and possibly get called multiple times by insurance companies is inconvenient, might make them late for work, might dirty their work clothes, and so on. Even in a minor fender bender, both parties are far more likely to remain honest and tell the police exactly what happened if uninvolved witnesses are around to tell it like they saw it, but even fender benders that happen on crowded streets rarely have witnesses to report anything.

Also, the more removed a person is from a situation, the less important or motivating it often seems unless it's a popular bandwagon item and it's the cool thing to do. When something is happening an ocean or more away, it's difficult to consider the implications of that over everyday matters immediately in front of us.

I don't know, maybe I am a "glass half empty" person, but I tend to call it more realistic. I think the vast majority of the world does not intentionally look the other way when things happen, and like I said above, I think most will get involved if it is obvious that failure to do something will result in serious injury to someone else (that they can see as an obvious victim), but I also think many of those same people will look the other way if they can appease their conscience with something like "someone else will help," or "I would if it wouldn't make me late to a meeting," or "I'm just one person so it wouldn't make any difference."

I guess what I'm saying is, I think it's a slippery slope. Looking the other way for minor things makes it easier to look the other way for slightly larger things, until it just becomes second nature.




Aah, the WBC is a special kind of special. I liked this approach to them.

That's not a bad idea. I hope it catches on.

I'm not really a fan of Michael Moore, but I thought this was great.

 

[00Syd]

Slightly off topic here: I tutor math, and there are people going into college (and outta college) who can't do basic math. It seems to me like asking for accurate media analysis might be a reach, at least for a subset of the population. The two don't perfectly go hand in hand, but one does wonder.

Well, I will freely admit that I'm pretty atrocious at math. But I'm of the opinion that unless you are majoring in something science-y or math-related, you probably don't have much use for anything above high school level math. But I think that being able to critically analyze what you read and see and hear is an incredibly important skill for everybody, especially in our media saturated culture. But again, I'll freely admit that I'm biased here, and might have a different opinion of the situation if I was better at math. At the moment I'm struggling through an intro level statistics course, and it's kicking my ass.

The other thing that really disgusted me is getting to college and finding out that i , and everyone else, was required to take a class on how to write an essay, because they no longer have any expectation that we'll arrive to college with that skill. That is disgusting. What the fuck is wrong with our educational system that we think three years of studying for the SAT is a better preperation for college than learning how to write an essay??

That made me want to give up and drop out.