Has BDSM changed...?

[Brunne]

...or have I?

I often find myself drawn back to the bdsm community in one way or another, but at the same time, I struggle with it a lot. I read all the threads here and half-start to reply so many times, but I just end up abandoning the attempt.

I'm trying to figure out if bdsm 'culture' or the bdsm 'community' has changed over time or it's just that my own views of dominance and submission have changed. Or maybe it was always like this and I just perceived it differently?

Were things a bit more clear and straight-forward in the past? Have the lines blurred or something? I guess it's the old thing where you know you don't quite fit in 'out there' and you don't quite fit in 'in here' either...

Hm.

 

[midwestyankee]

Could you offer up a few specific examples of how things seem to have changed? Are the prices higher and the portions smaller? Is the white bread even squishier than you remember? Do the Twinkies last even longer now? Yes, these are absurd questions in context, but I really am curious what kinds of observations have led to this question that you posted.

 

[njlauren]

Not really sure what you are trying to say, to be honest, your post is kind of all over the place, random blurts....I am guessing you are asking why you find it hard to fit into the scene/community (though using this message board as an example of the community is a pretty small sample size to use to judge the whole).

I think the answer I would give is there really isn't one "BD/SM" community with a common set of values and experience, there are all kinds of people covered by this and there are the kinds of conflicts and disagreements you find in any group. I think BD/SM as a whole has changed, if simply because compared to 30 years ago when I got my toes wet, thanks to the net you have all kinds of information at your fingertips, websites, places like fetlife and collar me and so forth, you name it (which is also daunting, because you also have 1 million 'experts' out there. But it always has been pretty diverse, too.

I sense you feel like you don't seem to fit in and that is common. First of all, people change, what you want and expect changes; some people start off with light kink play then find themselves getting into deep play, d/s, other things, other people get all heavy into it, going groups, go to conventions and parties and so forth, then pull back to regroup. Could be that the discussions on here simply don't interest you where you are at this point. Things change, but as the old saying goes, the more they change, the more they stay the same (the french is much better, but I don't remember the quote)

 

[Brunne]

Could you offer up a few specific examples of how things seem to have changed? Are the prices higher and the portions smaller? Is the white bread even squishier than you remember? Do the Twinkies last even longer now? Yes, these are absurd questions in context, but I really am curious what kinds of observations have led to this question that you posted.

Well, this is where the question of what has changed comes in really. When I first encountered 'the scene' (though more as an observer than a complete participant), the definitions of what things meant seemed a bit more straight-forward. Is it just me, or have things gotten way more 'specialised' now? Almost as if folks have been in this so long that they get so deep into their own particular brand of kink that there's no longer much common ground.

I find it difficult to join in a discussion because what I understand about D/s doesn't seem to apply to anyone. So is it me that's gotten 'too specialised'? What is the point of discussing if everyone has their set opinions that apply to themselves and no one else?

Is it silly to miss some of the 'traditions' that used to be around? I just seem to remember there being a mainly unspoken code of conduct which I don't really see anymore. Possibly as it's all gone so mainstream?

I'm not always great at putting my finger on things, hence the slightly vague post.

Not really sure what you are trying to say, to be honest, your post is kind of all over the place, random blurts....I am guessing you are asking why you find it hard to fit into the scene/community (though using this message board as an example of the community is a pretty small sample size to use to judge the whole).

Yes, it's definitely about fitting in (or not, in this case). And with regards to the boards here, you're right, but I've tried a few other sites in recent years (informed consent, the slave register etc etc) and found the same thing.

I sense you feel like you don't seem to fit in and that is common. First of all, people change, what you want and expect changes; some people start off with light kink play then find themselves getting into deep play, d/s, other things, other people get all heavy into it, going groups, go to conventions and parties and so forth, then pull back to regroup. Could be that the discussions on here simply don't interest you where you are at this point. Things change, but as the old saying goes, the more they change, the more they stay the same (the french is much better, but I don't remember the quote)

It's definitely a 'caught in the middle somewhere' feeling, as I'll never truly think as the mainstream do (despite what they think they know from reading 50 Shades), but I'm not finding the sort of common ground that I used to either.

C'est la vie?

 

[Stella_Omega]

What traditions used to be around? Name something, please, you've got my curiosity going.

There's never been just one community, you know-- there's never been just one "unspoken code of conduct." Are you talking gay, lesbian, hetero?
Where did you find your community-- east or west coast, from the Midwest? Were you part of Altsex newsgroup? I can remember a buttload of argument about those codes of conduct LOL

What is the point of discussing if everyone has their set opinions that apply to themselves and no one else?

It seems to me that there's even more value in discussion when you have more voices. And this question of yours maybe gives me a clue as to what traditions you think should come back...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Where did you find your community-- east or west coast, from the Midwest?

They are in the UK, not US.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Difficult to answer without more specifics. I find it varies widely depending who you are talking to, where there point of reference comes from (as in country/continent), their experiences and how they connect to BDSM (online, LGBTI, play only, lifestyle, 24/7 etc.), and of course, as in most things, openness to difference, just to name a few. Some people are fluid, some are rigid, others are somewhere in between. Look forward to getting more idea as to what you are seeing.

Catalina

 

[KoPilot]

It seems to me that there's even more value in discussion when you have more voices. And this question of yours maybe gives me a clue as to what traditions you think should come back...

Yeah, sounds to me like they're sad because their idea of kink isn't the predominant one anymore. I say good-- since when is diversity a bad thing? Oh right, when it suddenly means you're not the only voice that people are listening to anymore.

But consider this, OP: there are tons of young people that don't "fit in", even with all this supposed newfangled stuff you're so suspicious of. Me, for one. I say screw mainstream community, really. Never does do most people much good.

 

[Shankara20]

Are you talking gay, lesbian, hetero?
Where did you find your community-- east or west coast, from the Midwest? Were you part of Altsex newsgroup?

I came of age with BDSM in San Francisco in a pan-sexual group. Before settling with those lovely folks I exterminated with gay leather daddy, hetro -master/slave people, and a few other. Each group had it's own language and protocol. Being at home with one did not make me at home with the other.

Several years ago I conjured up this little conversation about how some people bond - or don't:

Hi, are you someone who enjoys an adult beverage?

I am indeed.

Great, I just do not understand those who don't.
It looks like we are member of the same group.
Do you have a preference for beer, wine or hard liquor?

Beer is my only drink.

Well I'll be damned, I am a beer drinker myself. Hell, we are almost family.
Import or domestic?

For some reason I have developed a taste exclusively for domestic

Holly Hell! We are more brothers then cousins. Bottled, a can or draft beer?

Given a choice it is always bottled.

I right there with you brother. Miller?

Oh hell no, I'm a Bud man

You sick mother-fucker!
How the hell can you drink that piss/water?
I'd rather spend time with a tea-totter then a perverted sick-fuck like you.​

Now this dynamic can play out in religion, politics, sexual orientation, food preferences, BDSM, any human activity at all.

This BDSM tent is very large indeed - much larger the just a three ring circus.

 

[desertslave]

Oh Shankara, that's priceless!

I was 'raised' by a gay male dom and his bi male switch (my Sir), beginning in the very late 70s. My first introduction to the social scene was Mineshaft in NYC, and subsequently Hellfire, down the street and around the corner (philosophically and geographically. LOL) They had fairly formal 'sensibilities' which, of course, rubbed off on me.

My more recent interactions have been, very occasionally, at munches or a private club here in AZ. The audience is much more diverse, sometimes opinionated, but generally worth interacting with because of the interesting differences. There are some rigid loudmouths, but they're mostly ignorable. The one really palpable difference, to me, is a lack of general respectfulness, and a bit more 'redneckness' for lack of a better term. But since, I live in the wild west, in a way it's understandable.

 

[Brunne]

What traditions used to be around? Name something, please, you've got my curiosity going.

There's never been just one community, you know-- there's never been just one "unspoken code of conduct." Are you talking gay, lesbian, hetero?
Where did you find your community-- east or west coast, from the Midwest? Were you part of Altsex newsgroup? I can remember a buttload of argument about those codes of conduct LOL

Well, I'm certainly not going to be any advocate for creating and enforcing any 'code' for anyone to live by - that goes completely against the whole ethos of people finding out who they are on their own terms.

My first experiences in real life were with some of the groups in Toronto, and online it was mainly IRC. They all had their own politics and madness and cliques, but it felt relatively stable. But then again, I was much younger and possibly not aware of the undercurrents there. That and possibly Canadians in general are fairly socially conservative (in contrast to how wildly kinky some of them are...eep). But they were generally warm and welcoming and I made a lot of good friends a the time.

It seems to me that there's even more value in discussion when you have more voices. And this question of yours maybe gives me a clue as to what traditions you think should come back...

I think that further back there were probably social etiquette rules that sort of set the stage for things...as in, back then I wouldn't have dared to have an alt with an upper case letter because I'd be instantly pegged as a Domme! All of that's incredibly silly and I am in no way saying it should be like that!

I'll probably regret my candidness, but I think what has shocked me most coming back into this is how superior many people seem to feel they are over the 'poor vanillas' out there. And by everyone having opinions that only apply to them, it's not diversity I am feeling, but something nearing intolerance.

I think that is what stops me from posting. I know that my opinion will probably be shot down. As I likely will be for saying this.

 

[Brunne]

Yeah, sounds to me like they're sad because their idea of kink isn't the predominant one anymore. I say good-- since when is diversity a bad thing? Oh right, when it suddenly means you're not the only voice that people are listening to anymore.

But consider this, OP: there are tons of young people that don't "fit in", even with all this supposed newfangled stuff you're so suspicious of. Me, for one. I say screw mainstream community, really. Never does do most people much good.

If I'm honest, this is exactly why I don't feel I can post. Without knowing me, I can only glean from this that you think I'm petty, snobbish, suspicious, intolerant and old-fashioned.

That is not my point at all, and I am none of those things. I feel unwelcome. I feel no warmth. Perhaps this level of sarcasm (without provocation that I can see) has something to do with that?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'll probably regret my candidness, but I think what has shocked me most coming back into this is how superior many people seem to feel they are over the 'poor vanillas' out there. And by everyone having opinions that only apply to them, it's not diversity I am feeling, but something nearing intolerance.

You find intolerance everywhere unfortunately, but often people are labeled intolerant simply because they do have an opinion or preferred choice for their own life. For me, that is what limits me in posting and spending time here and elsewhere these days. Having an opinion, or knowing what you want in your life, does not necessarily mean you are intolerant of others, it just means you are at a place in your life where you have gone through all the angst and searching and arrived at a place where you are comfy in your own skin. I think the aggressiveness towards those who do have a stroing opnion is in part a by product of the political madness we live with where everyone is so busy trying to prove they are all inclusive etc., they feel it is bad to have an opinion, or at least willing to voice it. It has become a very beige world. As to being down on vanillas, I think sometimes it is interpreted as that simply because others do not choose to be vanilla, and can be open about it. Personally I am happy for people to be vanilla, just as long as they don't begin telling me my lifestyle choice is sick, wrong or any other negative descriptor.

I think that is what stops me from posting. I know that my opinion will probably be shot down. As I likely will be for saying this.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained....but I get where you are coming from. You can be ridiculed for simply making a typo or spelling mistake around here some days....and that is often from posters who see themselves as all inclusive, politically correct, and well informed/experienced. I avoid posting on the days I just do not feel like dealing with it if it is the wrong day, but as I am not someone who has allowed people to silence me (or others I was standing up for), I come back and post from time to time. I would encourage you to post, share with others. You have as much right to your voice as anyone else here...and when it all fails, just remember, you do not know if the people behind the names are who and what they say they are anyway, so no need to sweat it too much.

Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I'm certainly not going to be any advocate for creating and enforcing any 'code' for anyone to live by - that goes completely against the whole ethos of people finding out who they are on their own terms.

But-- what codes were you talking about in the first place?

My first experiences in real life were with some of the groups in Toronto, and online it was mainly IRC. They all had their own politics and madness and cliques, but it felt relatively stable. But then again, I was much younger and possibly not aware of the undercurrents there. That and possibly Canadians in general are fairly socially conservative (in contrast to how wildly kinky some of them are...eep). But they were generally warm and welcoming and I made a lot of good friends a the time.

And folks did ... (what?) in a certain way... (which is?) That you're not seeing now. You ignored something I asked, though; was the group straight, gay, lesbian?

I think that further back there were probably social etiquette rules that sort of set the stage for things...as in, back then I wouldn't have dared to have an alt with an upper case letter because I'd be instantly pegged as a Domme! All of that's incredibly silly and I am in no way saying it should be like that!

See, this is something specific. We can actually talk about it.

Many many people still do that Y/you thing, including our local SOCAL women's sash wearer, who's supposed to be the voice of the women's community. Speaking for myself I think it's silly too. But it hasn't changed...

I'll probably regret my candidness, but I think what has shocked me most coming back into this is how superior many people seem to feel they are over the 'poor vanillas' out there. And by everyone having opinions that only apply to them, it's not diversity I am feeling, but something nearing intolerance.

People who have opinions that they try to apply to everyone -- that's intolerance. Saying "this is how I do it and you don't have to do it this way" is the opposite.

I think that is what stops me from posting. I know that my opinion will probably be shot down. As I likely will be for saying this.

Passive agressive for the win, I suppose. I am truly sorry that you feel you cannot communicate amongst differing opinions. Learned helplessness is really difficult to overcome, but you might look into it. Unfortunately, no one can do it for you.

 

[Brunne]

But-- what codes were you talking about in the first place? And folks did ... (what?) in a certain way... (which is?) That you're not seeing now. You ignored something I asked, though; was the group straight, gay, lesbian? See, this is something specific. We can actually talk about it.

Many many people still do that Y/you thing, including our local SOCAL women's sash wearer, who's supposed to be the voice of the women's community. Speaking for myself I think it's silly too. But it hasn't changed...People who have opinions that they try to apply to everyone -- that's intolerance. Saying "this is how I do it and you don't have to do it this way" is the opposite. Passive agressive for the win, I suppose. I am truly sorry that you feel you cannot communicate amongst differing opinions. Learned helplessness is really difficult to overcome, but you might look into it. Unfortunately, no one can do it for you.

Okay, so I've managed to get a negative reaction out of one of the people who's opinion on here I actually respect! I'm doing well...

I didn't ignore your question, I merely forgot to answer it. It was a mixture, mainly straight, but with a fair number of gay/lesbian/trans.

And it's not people having different opinions that I have a problem with (I thought i was pretty clear about that), it's some of the dismissive or aggressive reactions to something other than their own opinions that I'm seeing more. Maybe it's just Lit that's generally more aggressive, I don't know.

And I'm sorry if I wasn't clear...it wasn't you I was expecting to get shot down by.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, sounds to me like they're sad because their idea of kink isn't the predominant one anymore. I say good-- since when is diversity a bad thing? Oh right, when it suddenly means you're not the only voice that people are listening to anymore.

But consider this, OP: there are tons of young people that don't "fit in", even with all this supposed newfangled stuff you're so suspicious of. Me, for one. I say screw mainstream community, really. Never does do most people much good.

Agreed.

I guess if you've had things your way, been in the center of what's going on around you when people pushed to the margins are more comfortable you might feel less comfortable.

I'm not going to be manipulated into not calling it as I see it by "I want to be warmly welcomed."

I'm not someone to bitch about typos. I'm not someone to lose patience with horny younger guys for being horny younger guys, like that's a crime.

Say what you mean then. If you're talking about traditions, name them. If you're talking about warmth and welcoming - I expect that from friends and people. I fell in with a bunch of fairly nice people when I got on the scene myself, but ultimately the things we did not have in common began to outweigh those we did. When you're first getting your needs met there's an exaggeration in your mind of how important D/s actually is, versus everything-else.

My expectations are formed by living in urban environments, I don't have energy to dance around stuff. If I have pervy friends, it's because there's a lot going on there beyond the sexuality.

If you're talking about people looking down on vanillas... anything BUT here, in my case. I've seen more shitting on vanillas done by people happy about how open minded they are than anything else.

I judge people on a lot of things, their sexual mechanics are not one. Their attitude toward theirs and other people's - fair game. I think trying to shut down KoPilot with a dose of woe is me I'm just a noob is pretty poor. Refute the point, and let's get on with it. If you're not lamenting the loss of "traditions" that are in fact, some internet silliness that made people happy, then discuss.

I'll happily critique the community.

I find "the community" to be emotionally immature at times to the point where I don't want to be in it. I think we end our relationships SPECTACULARLY poorly, worse then "vanillas" and I detest the sexual truth-or-dare-ness of the public scene.

There's something really infantile about this "oh yeah, well I peed on her wearing a swastika and doing the Monty Python deadly joke sketch WHILE setting off a firework out of her ass!" kind of thing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Okay, so I've managed to get a negative reaction out of one of the people who's opinion on here I actually respect!

I didn't ignore your question, I merely forgot to answer it. It was a mixture, mainly straight, but with a fair number of gay/lesbian/trans.

And it's not people having different opinions that I have a problem with (I thought i was pretty clear about that), it's some of the dismissive or aggressive reactions to something other than their own opinions that I'm seeing more. Maybe it's just Lit that's generally more aggressive, I don't know.

Lit does require some thickish skin. Other forums on other sites have different standards, more active mods. Lit is barely moderated. That's one of its faults and also one of its virtues.

And I'm sorry if I wasn't clear...it wasn't you I was expecting to get shot down by.

I haven't shot you down, I've asked for clarification. If you really think I'm being too tough on you-- I am totally not the person you want to speak with.

 

[Shankara20]

Lit does require some thickish skin. Other forums on other sites have different standards, more active mods. Lit is barely moderated. That's one of its faults and also one of its virtues.

I haven't shot you down, I've asked for clarification. If you really think I'm being too tough on you-- I am totally not the person you want to speak with.

I agree with both above statements.

As to the top statement, that was my experience when first I wondered in. IT took a bit for me to find my online identity here. Several times over the years I have stepped out if this communities modus operandi only to be slapped back inline. It is because I want to be a member here that I stay within that modus operandi (which is very tolerant at its depth, but rather scrappy on the surface)

 

[Keroin]

That and possibly Canadians in general are fairly socially conservative (in contrast to how wildly kinky some of them are...eep). But they were generally warm and welcoming...

You forgot 'fiercely good looking and super funny', but we, Canada, will let that slide this time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You forgot 'fiercely good looking and super funny', but we, Canada, will let that slide this time.

And "healthy strapping outdoor types" as a gay friend of mine put it when he came back from Winnipeg-- with frostbite on all four cheeks...

 

[Shankara20]

with frostbite on all four cheeks...

chaps should be worn with care...

 

[Stella_Omega]

chaps should be worn with care...

What did you think of my tumblr art recs?

 

[Keroin]

And "healthy strapping outdoor types" as a gay friend of mine put it when he came back from Winnipeg-- with frostbite on all four cheeks...

Winnipeg?! What did he do wrong? Was he being punished for some hideous crime? Was it the see-eye-ay (I know you're still watching me, fuckers!)?

Also, "strapping" was a play on words, right?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Winnipeg?! What did he do wrong? Was he being punished for some hideous crime? Was it the see-eye-ay (I know you're still watching me, fuckers!)?

Also, "strapping" was a play on words, right?

Ummm.. Maybe it was Manitoba?

 

[KoPilot]

Agreed.

I guess if you've had things your way, been in the center of what's going on around you when people pushed to the margins are more comfortable you might feel less comfortable.

I'm not going to be manipulated into not calling it as I see it by "I want to be warmly welcomed."

I'm not someone to bitch about typos. I'm not someone to lose patience with horny younger guys for being horny younger guys, like that's a crime.

Say what you mean then. If you're talking about traditions, name them. If you're talking about warmth and welcoming - I expect that from friends and people. I fell in with a bunch of fairly nice people when I got on the scene myself, but ultimately the things we did not have in common began to outweigh those we did. When you're first getting your needs met there's an exaggeration in your mind of how important D/s actually is, versus everything-else.

My expectations are formed by living in urban environments, I don't have energy to dance around stuff. If I have pervy friends, it's because there's a lot going on there beyond the sexuality.

If you're talking about people looking down on vanillas... anything BUT here, in my case. I've seen more shitting on vanillas done by people happy about how open minded they are than anything else.

I judge people on a lot of things, their sexual mechanics are not one. Their attitude toward theirs and other people's - fair game. I think trying to shut down KoPilot with a dose of woe is me I'm just a noob is pretty poor. Refute the point, and let's get on with it. If you're not lamenting the loss of "traditions" that are in fact, some internet silliness that made people happy, then discuss.

I'll happily critique the community.

I find "the community" to be emotionally immature at times to the point where I don't want to be in it. I think we end our relationships SPECTACULARLY poorly, worse then "vanillas" and I detest the sexual truth-or-dare-ness of the public scene.

There's something really infantile about this "oh yeah, well I peed on her wearing a swastika and doing the Monty Python deadly joke sketch WHILE setting off a firework out of her ass!" kind of thing.

Yeah, not going to claim for a single minute that I know what The Community Is All About, but I just don't really get along with majority folk in much of any sphere I move in. I'm curt because I'm not here to make friends or cater to anybody.

And about the relationships involving human beings, I'd like to say that's a no-brainer? But it's gross how often that gets overlooked in favor of principle. Or I guess even sexyfuntiems.

So I'm gonna echo "SPIT IT OUT ALREADY" because I've heard and read so many stories about what The Community was and what it is and I guess I have this gross fascination with stuff I want nothing to do with.