Gun control ... actual question

[Lancecastor]

He's an American now.

Rectal asylum?

 

[Wrmfd]

I think Kim Gordon fancies herself as a provokative pedagogue.

Love connection, E?

Her complete ignorance of the constitutional rationale surrounding the entire issue and her blatant socialist subjectivity toward it will always automatically exclude her from ever being able to teach anyone anything objective about it.

So, no.

Sad, though, to read you turn so pussy as to not simply post what you mean instead of, like so many other playgrounders here, hiding behind the girly skirts of insinuating the forbidden.

 

[Que]

Note to n00bs: Lines like this are where you want to be. Simple, under 15 words, with at least 3 twists.

Less typing, more line left for ligatures or sutures; leave 'em dead or in stiches.

 

[Libsam]

Wow, the USA has the 11th highest rate of gun deaths. That's surprising considering the USA has the highest gun ownership rate in the world. There's more than one gun per adult in America, so like 120 guns for every 100 adults. The country in second place is like 60 guns per 100 adults, Yemen I believe. Last time I looked at the numbers anyway.

 

[Rightguide]

Out of the 74 countries for which data seems to be available, the US has the 11th highest rate of gun deaths (and the 10 higher countries are not exactly surprising). Of the 64 countries for which data is available, the US is the 12th highest for accidental gun deaths. (Source - yes, it's Wikipedia, but the way they make their tables able to be manipulated works pretty well. If anyone has a more reliable source for these data, I'd be interested to see it.)

Since the Vegas shooting, I've read a lot of stuff here and been thinking a lot about the issue of gun control. I personally don't have a problem with guns as a concept. However, we don't own a gun, and we don't live in a context in which gun ownership is common. We also have an incredibly low rate of gun death.

I've learnt a lot about the Second Amendment in the last few days, and read quite complex arguments about how gun ownership is a 'right' ... I'm not sill convinced that it's a human right, but I get that it's a right under the US constitution. And I have a better understanding (although far from complete) of the history of the US that's created the culture in which that seems to make sense.

So, in the light of all that, I'm thinking most people would still agree the stats in para one above are not great? Given that, what is proposed as the solution? If you don't think greater gun control is the answer, what is?

It would be great if any thoughts along any lines were supported by actual evidence.

*Feel free to hurl whatever insults you want in my general direction in response to anything that's said in this thread, but I won't respond to that. I'm actually genuinely interested in getting an understanding of the situation.

First off there are over 3000 counties in America all of which have available data on crime and gun deaths etc. The FBI UCR is the reputable source for a compilation of the majority of that data.

Not being an American yourself hinders to a degree your inability to accept or understand a cultural aspect common only to America. The idea that we have to change our culture to conform to some international norm is an arrogant proposition unacceptable to a majority of Americans.

Basic "human rights" were declared by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and enshrined in the US Constitution for the first time in history. Until that time no government ever gave a shit about them. The American Constitution secures those rights by placing limits on the power and jurisdiction of the government. It left in the hands of the people the power and means to either amend or abolish government politically or by force.

Having said all of the above, read post #2, nothing else really needs to be said.

 

[Que]

Wow, the USA has the 11th highest rate of gun deaths. That's surprising considering the USA has the highest gun ownership rate in the world. There's more than one gun per adult in America, so like 120 guns for every 100 adults. The country in second place is like 60 guns per 100 adults, Yemen I believe. Last time I looked at the numbers anyway.

I seriously doubt Yemeni statistics have been trebled by including suicides. I doubt what passes for a government there even tracks that.

 

[phrodeau]

Sorry, but only one thing will work!

 

[jaF0]

If you don't think greater gun control is the answer, what is?

Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of ammunition. You can have your guns, but nothing to make boom-boom.

 

[Libsam]

I seriously doubt Yemeni statistics have been trebled by including suicides. I doubt what passes for a government there even tracks that.

We know the Brits fudge their numbers.

An "obsession" with reducing crime is creating pressure on police to "manipulate" crime figures, a senior police officer has said.

 

[Wrmfd]

Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of ammunition. You can have your guns, but nothing to make boom-boom.

Ban the "manufacture, sale and transportation of intoxicating liquors." You can have your mugs, but nothing to make actual hooch.

How'd that work for all you socialists back in America's infamous "progressive era", comrade?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Most american gb-ers own a gun or five, except the ones in ny and cali.

Nyc and la are both great places to get shot.

Not enough guns!

Cali resident, 2 x 1911's in .45ACP (Springfield Operator/Wilson Combat Professional) , Savage 110BA .338Lapua mag, Remington 700 in .308, M1A SOCOM II, Glock 42 .380ACP and a pair Mossy Moss 12ga M500's and a side by side 12ga.

Got crossbows, composite bows, long bows, Japanese recurve bow, morning stars, maces, clubs, 2 Kurkris, couple dozen throwing knives, several hatchets, 4 antique Katana blades made from 1683 to 1749 and a pair of modern combat ready blades made by Korehira Watanabe.

That's just at the house.

The connex I have buried in NV contains the good shit.

You've got a citation for that?

Don't care enough to go dig and find it for all the "Parents and educators have no responsibility for how their kids turn out! Poverty is the problem and socialism is the answer!! " crowd.

If you want to find out how important having parents is vs. not there is plenty of information at the end of a google search supporting the idea that contrary to socialist dogma, the state doesn't do anywhere near as good of a job of raising children as an invested pair of parents.

 

[DeYaKen]

So the answer is more cows with bells!
(I'm being a bit flippant ... obviously that's not the answer. But being in Switzerland just cracks me up, because it's so Swiss.)

The question you should have asked yourself is why is it that two Free Gun Societies should be so vastly different. It suggests that if the US could somehow learn from the Swiss, You could keep your free access to guns and reduce the level of violence.

Sorry for being serious, I just happen to think that loss of human life is a serious matter.

 

[KimGordon67]

On an individual basis I think that we can make an impact on the circumstances of others. I think society sucks on having any impact at all. My anecdotal observations suggest that society "helping, " if anything, enables bad behavior.

There was a time when the only help that anyone got were from charitable sources where those handing out the largesse of society where directly connected to their clients. They knew who needed a hand up and who needed tough love. We've completely lost that layer of accountability.

Most of the people that I work with have some sort of disadvantage in life. Many have leveraged their disadvantage through their own choices leading to all sorts of continuing consequences in their lives.

I think we could agree that we would like to see society in general and individuals in particular live better. We just have different levels of optimism about that being possible. More often than not, people choose their fate.

In the interest of civil liberties we no longer commit people to various institutions in America. So we have all kinds of ills in society because we have people with legitimate treatable psychiatric problems wandering amongst us. You can't really separate those kind of psychiatric problems from drug abuse the drug abuse feeds the psychiatric problems the psychiatric problems tend to lead to drug abuse. A large part of what you're talking about when you talk about poverty are people on the fringes of society who are living their lives in a continual state of substance abuse.

... and that problem even when you throw a lot of money at it and you have addicts who wish to recover you still don't have great success rates.

I'm not really suggesting 'helping' (although I do think that's necessary in a lot of cases). I'm suggesting that something fundamental about the structure is broken. It's a structural issue, not one that be effectively addressed at an individual level.

But clearly the politics of the GB cleave pretty fundamentally along these lines, and that's not the discussion I want to have in this particular thread. In part because barely any arguments offered by either side are supported by evidence, and any evidence I provide is usually ignored.

 

[KimGordon67]

That is a decent summation of Lott's work.

Look at the united States of "America" for what it actually is- a collection of sovereign States just as the united soverign States of Europe, known as the European Union is. We blurred that line with Lincoln and keep degrading that by using the national government to bribe the states into some sense of cohesive Unity but really we are not.

Pick some random state that does not have a huge metropolis city area and compare that to any European similar size region. Let's say compare Iowa to Luxembourg. You're going to find similar demographics in similar crime rates.

Chicago all by itself could be a country. It's got a huge problem with violence. It doesn't have a huge pro-gun culture it's simply has a huge violence problem. I'd have to look up the dates but until the Supreme Court told them they couldn't do it anymore handguns were essentially banned in Chicago and it's certainly not practical to go walking around with a rifle. They were the cautionary example on how gun control is completely ineffective at curbing violence. The counter point to that is well Chicago wouldn't have a handgun problem if it wasn't for the fact that you can leave Chicago go to Indiana buy some guns and come back. All of that is beside the point- there are plenty of illegal guns in Chicago to supply every murderer who wants one.

The same same could be said about Los Angeles. Los Angeles is a huge City that could easily be a country. Phoenix metropolitan area which is just directly east of there is now just as large, but slightly less populous. Phoenix and Los Angeles have pretty similar demographics and racial composition. I would say LA is more black than Phoenix but Phoenix is probably about the same degree of Hispanic that Los Angeles is.

LA is more violent than Phoenix even though California has more restrictive gun legislation. Phoenix has exactly none. I can legally carry concealed weapons of any description without any permission from any authority.

Prisoners kill each other with guns in side of prison. Guns are smuggled in, stolen or manufactured inside the prison.

So if we agree that there is no correlation between rates of violent crime and levels of gun ownership, does that not suggest that gun ownership doesn't result in greater safety? I guess you'd have see the stats on violent crime experienced by gun owners vs non-owners to make that statement definitively - I don't have time to go looking right now, but I'd be surprised if those stats are (reliably) collected by anyone. But at a general level, can we say that high levels of gun ownership have no discernible effects on violent crime either way?

 

[KimGordon67]

There are no reliable statistics on guns and gun crime in America. The NRA has deemed it so. There's a lot of fake news, mendacity and willful ignorance to be found in this thread.

So you're saying that none of the stats I could access on this issue are reliable? Why not? What exactly in what's been said above is fake news or willful ignorance?

 

[Wrmfd]

The question you should have asked yourself is why is it that two Free Gun Societies should be so vastly different. It suggests that if the US could somehow learn from the Swiss, You could keep your free access to guns and reduce the level of violence.

Sorry for being serious, I just happen to think that loss of human life is a serious matter.

And sorry too to you, but you're going to have to actually compete for I care! I care! status on this Board instead of simply self-pimping it just like all the other wannabes here do.

See poster buttwipes for Entry application. Yw.

 

[KimGordon67]

Of the remaining roughly 10,000 deaths, cut that number by approximately 60% which is the number of black, usually gang members, usually drug-related murders that happened in inner cities. If you think that those murders are not going to happen if law-abiding citizens are deprived of guns given the fact that at least one third of all black males are forbidden to have guns of any sort anyway due to their felony records I don't know what to tell you about what you think gun control is going to accomplish. Those murders are being committed by the third who aren't permitted to have guns of any kind.

Just to come back to this point - is there research to back these claims up? I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

[adrina]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hFKNImW5ofbhzFJ9VeqOxCYr8V8=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9371353/gun_ownership_states.png

 

[adrina]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/MjAgpz1cS-_z_gdhv6NDzAvqN6k=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9371423/gun_control_vs_deaths.jpg

When economist Richard Florida took a look at gun deaths and other social indicators, he found that higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness didn’t correlate with more gun deaths. But he did find one telling correlation: States with tighter gun control laws have fewer gun-related deaths. (Read more at Florida’s “The Geography of Gun Deaths.”)

This is backed by other research: A 2016 review of 130 studies in 10 countries, published in Epidemiologic Reviews, found that new legal restrictions on owning and purchasing guns tended to be followed by a drop in gun violence — a strong indicator that restricting access to guns can save lives.

source

 

[KimGordon67]

Murder in Australia did not statistically reduce at all when guns were virtually eliminated. The only thing that changed was the method of murder. Not the number of homicides.

It seems that actually homicide rates in Australia have dropped since the elimination of guns. Source. Or course, this is a correlation, and we have no of definitively proving that the two things are causally related, but it seems likely . But if you've got evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

[KimGordon67]

Fail. Any post that mentions proven fraud and liar John Lott is an instafail.

What exactly is Lott's argument, and why is it wrong?

 

[Sean]

It seems that actually homicide rates in Australia have dropped since the elimination of guns. Source. Or course, this is a correlation, and we have no of definitively proving that the two things are causally related, but it seems likely . But if you've got evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in seeing it.

He's talking utter crap, as usual. And as for the suicide question, "they'll just find another way to do it" is bollocks, too. Google British coal gas for a real eye opener.

 

[Sean]

What exactly is Lott's argument, and why is it wrong?

Basically, More guns, less crime. I believe that was actually the title of his book. He completely falsified his data then conveniently "lost" it when challenged. He posed as other people online to praise his work and teaching. He peer reviewed his own work. Google Mary Rosh if you want a laugh.

 

[KimGordon67]

Proven by who dip shit? And posted by a twit that lives in the MOST CRIME RIDDEN industrialized nation with the most draconian gun laws.

"Come to the UK, a criminals Shangri-la."

Might want to call on those Australians to pick up the pace, I see they've fallen to fourth among the crime ridden. Watching your two nations battle back and forth for first place was such a joy. I could never decide who to root for.

Ishmael

When Coach made this argument, I checked the US figures. If you look at the top ten states in terms of gun ownership vs the state with the highest rate of violent crimes, there is, as far as I can gather, no correlation. This means the stats don't support the argument that rates of gun ownership either decrease or increase rates of violent crime.

Comparing 'crime' stats internationally and suggesting that differences are solely a result of levels of gun ownership is disingenuous at best. You're just ignoring the multiple other factors that contribute to crime rates. Unless someone's done some more detailed research making a stronger case for a causal relationship - if so, I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

[KimGordon67]

Her complete ignorance of the constitutional rationale surrounding the entire issue and her blatant socialist subjectivity toward it will always automatically exclude her from ever being able to teach anyone anything objective about it.

So, no.

Sad, though, to read you turn so pussy as to not simply post what you mean instead of, like so many other playgrounders here, hiding behind the girly skirts of insinuating the forbidden.

OK, this is a general response to you, AJ, Lance, Botany Boy and, to a lesser extent, Ishmael, and anyone else who makes similar statements ... if you look at through the first two pages of discussion, you'll see that I've actually considered most of Que's points, and conceded some of them. Others, I'm interested in getting clarification on. Because I'm actually interested in seeing the evidence that supports either side of the argument. I'm not wanting to 'teach anyone' anything on this particular topic - I'm wanting to get some clarity around the actual issue.

If you feel that I'm ignorant/a socialist/lying/a cunt/whatever else anyone feels like saying, that's fine - feel free to not contribute to the discussion.