Gun control ... actual question

[Que]

Did you look at either of the bits of research I linked to?

I could equally say people who have more money tend to be 'smart' (using cultural capital as the driver here, not innate intelligence) and be more capable (for a whole range of reasons, again largely linked to cultural capital).

I could equally say that the biggest predictor of teenage births is poverty.

I strongly suspect neither of us are likely to shift on this debate. I'm fairly well informed on that particular issue. I appreciate your input on the gun control things - there's some factors in there I hadn't previously considered.

On an individual basis I think that we can make an impact on the circumstances of others. I think society sucks on having any impact at all. My anecdotal observations suggest that society "helping, " if anything, enables bad behavior.

There was a time when the only help that anyone got were from charitable sources where those handing out the largesse of society where directly connected to their clients. They knew who needed a hand up and who needed tough love. We've completely lost that layer of accountability.

Most of the people that I work with have some sort of disadvantage in life. Many have leveraged their disadvantage through their own choices leading to all sorts of continuing consequences in their lives.

I think we could agree that we would like to see society in general and individuals in particular live better. We just have different levels of optimism about that being possible. More often than not, people choose their fate.

In the interest of civil liberties we no longer commit people to various institutions in America. So we have all kinds of ills in society because we have people with legitimate treatable psychiatric problems wandering amongst us. You can't really separate those kind of psychiatric problems from drug abuse the drug abuse feeds the psychiatric problems the psychiatric problems tend to lead to drug abuse. A large part of what you're talking about when you talk about poverty are people on the fringes of society who are living their lives in a continual state of substance abuse.

... and that problem even when you throw a lot of money at it and you have addicts who wish to recover you still don't have great success rates.

 

[Ishmael]

Essential reading if you want to seriously discuss "Gun Control." These references are decidedly pro-gun ownership. But these references present the arguments that have to be countered before any meaningful gun control will pass. The first is a monograph done by Jeffrey Snyder;

"A Nation of Cowards."

The next two are scholarly works done with hard data. Both have been assailed over the years to no avail. The data and statistics have stood up to virtually every assault.

"Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control" - Gary Kleck

And

"More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)" - John Lott


Kleck's work was cited by the SCOTUS in the DC v Heller decision determining that the 'right to bear arms' is a individual right.

Lott has been attacked for the conclusion he reached in his work, that being that more guns equals less crime. Although statistics show that as gun ownership in the US has risen and crime rates fallen, no direct link between the two is possible, so that particular criticism is well deserved. However the critics have not been able to impugn the data and methodology Lott presents.

Ishmael

 

[Que]

So what you are saying here is if you discount the places in America where people are most likely to be killed, Then compare it with European cities without eliminating the places where people are most likely to get killed, America is safer. Hmm I've seen some skewed uses of statistics but that really takes the biscuit.

The only real comparison you can make is like for like deaths per head of population. when you do that it is very hard to find an American city which is safer than Europe. If you are trying to make an argument in favour of guns I suggest you compare the US with Switzerland where you can buy guns over the counter. It's not as easy as in the US. I believe it takes a day to get a long gun and two days to buy a handgun. The checks for a handgun take longer. Despite being able to carry guns, incidents of violence are few. Gun ownership is on the decline in Switzerland.

No, I'm saying unless you are part of the 6% of American who are black males who for reasons that are beyond my ken seem to like murdering each other, you are safer than you are in Europe. America writ large does not have a problem with guns or gun violence. 6% of our population delight in killing each other. All by themselves they account for roughly 60% of our homocides by gun.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You are wasting your time with this one.



Serious.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

No, I'm saying unless you are part of the 6% of American who are black males who for reasons that are beyond my ken seem to like murdering each other, you are safer than you are in Europe. America writ large does not have a problem with guns or gun violence. 6% of our population delight in killing each other. All by themselves they account for roughly 60% of our deaths by gun.

The real problem is that the gun control crowd always cite gun deaths without mentioning the caveat that 2/3 of them are suicides...

Take that out and take out the black-on-black crime over drug turf and we are a pretty peaceful society.

 

[Lancecastor]

http://staging.snopes.com/app/uploads/2016/05/melania3.jpg

American male insecurity just as readily explains your gun fetish.

 

[Ishmael]

You are wasting your time with this one.



Serious.

Probably, but maybe there are others reading that might want to address the issue after having done some serious research.

Ishmael

 

[Que]

The real problem is that the gun control crowd always cite gun deaths without mentioning the caveat that 2/3 of them are suicides...

Take that out and take out the black-on-black crime over drug turf and we are a pretty peaceful society.

Well that's why I usually find this subject really really frustrating. Because before you can get to debunking their nonsense you have to agree to basic definitions.

I do understand that the anti-gun nuts are going to dismiss my pro gun nut statistical analysis as self-serving, but the numbers are exactly what they are and they aren't being conflated as something that they are not.

The anti-gun propaganda though is so riddled with easily debunked nonsense that I don't know how anyone once they realize what they've been spoon-fed doesn't dismiss all of the arguments out of hand.

For example you have statistics about "children" being the victims of gun violence. Then you find it there definition of a child goes all the way up to 26 years old and includes people who were known gang members known to have participated in violence up to and including murders in their early teens.

Then they talk about "school shootings" and they mean any shooting that happens anywhere near (but not at) a school whether or not the school is in session and whether or not it involved a student as either a victim or shooter. In urban environments everything is near a school. Couple of gang members shooting each other in a park two blocks from the school at 2 a.m. is not a "school shooting."

When they drag out those sort of ridiculous conflations they really shouldn't even be engaged.

Including suicide in the statistics for this debate, tripling the actual number is scoff-worthy.

 

[Lancecastor]

Probably, but maybe there are others reading that might want to address the issue after having done some serious research.

Ishmael

Fetal gun ownership.

I said it first.

 

[KimGordon67]

The real problem is that the gun control crowd always cite gun deaths without mentioning the caveat that 2/3 of them are suicides...

Take that out and take out the black-on-black crime over drug turf and we are a pretty peaceful society.

There was actually discussion about both those points earlier.

 

[KimGordon67]

Essential reading if you want to seriously discuss "Gun Control." These references are decidedly pro-gun ownership. But these references present the arguments that have to be countered before any meaningful gun control will pass. The first is a monograph done by Jeffrey Snyder;

"A Nation of Cowards."

The next two are scholarly works done with hard data. Both have been assailed over the years to no avail. The data and statistics have stood up to virtually every assault.

"Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control" - Gary Kleck

And

"More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)" - John Lott


Kleck's work was cited by the SCOTUS in the DC v Heller decision determining that the 'right to bear arms' is a individual right.

Lott has been attacked for the conclusion he reached in his work, that being that more guns equals less crime. Although statistics show that as gun ownership in the US has risen and crime rates fallen, no direct link between the two is possible, so that particular criticism is well deserved. However the critics have not been able to impugn the data and methodology Lott presents.

Ishmael

I'm probably not going to read whole books - Are there shorter reliable summaries of the work anywhere.

I did an eyeball check of state by state levels of gun ownership by levels of violent crime, and there's absolutely no immediately obvious correlation - I actually assumed more guns would equal more violent crime, but there's really no pattern that I can see.

 

[Que]

I'm probably not going to read whole books - Are there shorter reliable summaries of the work anywhere.

I did an eyeball check of state by state levels of gun ownership by levels of violent crime, and there's absolutely no immediately obvious correlation - I actually assumed more guns would equal more violent crime, but there's really no pattern that I can see.

That is a decent summation of Lott's work.

Look at the united States of "America" for what it actually is- a collection of sovereign States just as the united soverign States of Europe, known as the European Union is. We blurred that line with Lincoln and keep degrading that by using the national government to bribe the states into some sense of cohesive Unity but really we are not.

Pick some random state that does not have a huge metropolis city area and compare that to any European similar size region. Let's say compare Iowa to Luxembourg. You're going to find similar demographics in similar crime rates.

Chicago all by itself could be a country. It's got a huge problem with violence. It doesn't have a huge pro-gun culture it's simply has a huge violence problem. I'd have to look up the dates but until the Supreme Court told them they couldn't do it anymore handguns were essentially banned in Chicago and it's certainly not practical to go walking around with a rifle. They were the cautionary example on how gun control is completely ineffective at curbing violence. The counter point to that is well Chicago wouldn't have a handgun problem if it wasn't for the fact that you can leave Chicago go to Indiana buy some guns and come back. All of that is beside the point- there are plenty of illegal guns in Chicago to supply every murderer who wants one.

The same same could be said about Los Angeles. Los Angeles is a huge City that could easily be a country. Phoenix metropolitan area which is just directly east of there is now just as large, but slightly less populous. Phoenix and Los Angeles have pretty similar demographics and racial composition. I would say LA is more black than Phoenix but Phoenix is probably about the same degree of Hispanic that Los Angeles is.

LA is more violent than Phoenix even though California has more restrictive gun legislation. Phoenix has exactly none. I can legally carry concealed weapons of any description without any permission from any authority.

Prisoners kill each other with guns in side of prison. Guns are smuggled in, stolen or manufactured inside the prison.

 

[Lancecastor]

Eyer must know when the fetus has the right to bear arms....

 

[Lancecastor]

Eyer must know when the fetus has the right to bear arms....

Note to n00bs: Lines like this are where you want to be. Simple, under 15 words, with at least 3 twists.

 

[Saint Peter]

Note to n00bs: Lines like this are where you want to be. Simple, under 15 words, with at least 3 twists.

fuckin A

 

[phrodeau]

I'm probably not going to read whole books - Are there shorter reliable summaries of the work anywhere.

I did an eyeball check of state by state levels of gun ownership by levels of violent crime, and there's absolutely no immediately obvious correlation - I actually assumed more guns would equal more violent crime, but there's really no pattern that I can see.

There are no reliable statistics on guns and gun crime in America. The NRA has deemed it so. There's a lot of fake news, mendacity and willful ignorance to be found in this thread.

 

[Ishmael]

There are no reliable statistics on guns and gun crime in America. The NRA has deemed it so. There's a lot of fake news, mendacity and willful ignorance to be found in this thread.

The NRA doesn't have a damn thing to do with either the FBI's or the various states gun crime statistics. Go blow your smoke up someone elses ass.

Ishmael

 

[Lancecastor]

Most american gb-ers own a gun or five, except the ones in ny and cali.

Nyc and la are both great places to get shot.

Not enough guns!

 

[MGurkus]

You have discovered the conflation of various societal ills as some mythical problem called "gun deaths."

Suicide and murder are the problem, not the instrument of choice.

The first thing you have to do when understanding gun deaths in America is to reduce the number you're given by 2/3. That's the amount of people who kill themselves with guns. If you think the number of people who want to kill themselves is going to dramatically drop if in some magical way 300 to 400 million guns disappear out of America then there's really no point in having a conversation with you about suicide by gun.

Of the remaining roughly 10,000 deaths, cut that number by approximately 60% which is the number of black, usually gang members, usually drug-related murders that happened in inner cities. If you think that those murders are not going to happen if law-abiding citizens are deprived of guns given the fact that at least one third of all black males are forbidden to have guns of any sort anyway due to their felony records I don't know what to tell you about what you think gun control is going to accomplish. Those murders are being committed by the third who aren't permitted to have guns of any kind. They have them now. They're not going to turn them in with any sort of gun control legislation. Mexico has a virtual ban on all sorts of firearms and yet they have a tremendous homicide rate using firearms. And no, until the Obama Administration started giving them guns to try to prove they were coming from America, they actually were not gettng them from America. I happen to know a little something about that. They loved that brief window when guns were coming from America because it was a little bit simpler for them but they're back to getting them the way they always did, imported from third world arms bazzars.

Of the five thousand or so murders left in a country of 340 million you got to assume some of those are crimes of passion I think a gun is a little easier to use than other implements to kill somebody in the heat of the moment but it's not that hard to pick up a blunt object and smack somebody upside the head.

Murder in Australia did not statistically reduce at all when guns were virtually eliminated. The only thing that changed was the method of murder. Not the number of homicides.

The biggest problem that you don't understand about life with guns in America is there are plenty of places we're having a gun definitely makes you safer and definitely deters would-be rapists robbers and other enthusists of mayhem. Famously Florida passing concealed carry dramatically reduced carjackings and murder. Nothing about disarming people without homicidal or suicidal intentions is going to reduce the number of homicides.

If you made guns harder to get in America I think you probably could reduce the number of people killed by firearms somewhere in the neighborhood of three to four thousand per year, but I can't imagine that anything less than half to two-thirds of those people would still be killed just using some other means.

Yes, gun deaths are a mythical problem. What a retarded little creepy tranny.

 

[Wrmfd]

Eyer must know when the fetus has the right to bear arms....

As a matter of fact, I posted a couple of images recently showing just how natural, just how precisely unalienable that right for all God's creatures naturally is.

Both showed little, innocent human lives bearing arms, one of them showing arms dismembered during the intentional and tortuous killing their mothers had sentenced them to: death for convenience.

Forum Guidelines DO NOT PROHIBIT the posting of such images, and doing so most certainly falls safely under the fake "Free Speech" tag up there in the right corner...

But I was instantly banned for doing so - NOT FOR BREAKING ANY RULE - but simply because pro-baby killers complained to the pro-baby killer website owner, and my username was murdered just like they like their babies.

But, I digress...

Why is this foreign socialist chick from another land so endlessly focused on an American constitutional governance issue that she has no practical say in whatsoever?

I mean, it'd be like me whining about bestiality being legal in Canada and lanciepoo Thanksgiving today with those two birds he's talking about.

NONE. OF. MY. BUSINESS.

 

[Lancecastor]

I think Kim Gordon fancies herself as a provokative pedagogue.

Love connection, E?

 

[Sean]

Essential reading if you want to seriously discuss "Gun Control." These references are decidedly pro-gun ownership. But these references present the arguments that have to be countered before any meaningful gun control will pass. The first is a monograph done by Jeffrey Snyder;

"A Nation of Cowards."

The next two are scholarly works done with hard data. Both have been assailed over the years to no avail. The data and statistics have stood up to virtually every assault.

"Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control" - Gary Kleck

And

"More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)" - John Lott


Kleck's work was cited by the SCOTUS in the DC v Heller decision determining that the 'right to bear arms' is a individual right.

Lott has been attacked for the conclusion he reached in his work, that being that more guns equals less crime. Although statistics show that as gun ownership in the US has risen and crime rates fallen, no direct link between the two is possible, so that particular criticism is well deserved. However the critics have not been able to impugn the data and methodology Lott presents.

Ishmael

Fail. Any post that mentions proven fraud and liar John Lott is an instafail.

 

[Ishmael]

Fail. Any post that mentions proven fraud and liar John Lott is an instafail.

Proven by who dip shit? And posted by a twit that lives in the MOST CRIME RIDDEN industrialized nation with the most draconian gun laws.

"Come to the UK, a criminals Shangri-la."

Might want to call on those Australians to pick up the pace, I see they've fallen to fourth among the crime ridden. Watching your two nations battle back and forth for first place was such a joy. I could never decide who to root for.

Ishmael

 

[Sean]

Proven by who dip shit? And posted by a twit that lives in the MOST CRIME RIDDEN industrialized nation with the most draconian gun laws.

"Come to the UK, a criminals Shangri-la."

Might want to call on those Australians to pick up the pace, I see they've fallen to fourth among the crime ridden. Watching your two nations battle back and forth for first place was such a joy. I could never decide who to root for.

Ishmael

He admitted it himself, you dumb fuck.

As for the crime figures, yeah, ours are higher. But illegal parking and noise complaints are a little bit less serious than your massive murder rate.

 

[MGurkus]

Proven by who dip shit? And posted by a twit that lives in the MOST CRIME RIDDEN industrialized nation with the most draconian gun laws.

"Come to the UK, a criminals Shangri-la."

Might want to call on those Australians to pick up the pace, I see they've fallen to fourth among the crime ridden. Watching your two nations battle back and forth for first place was such a joy. I could never decide who to root for.

Ishmael

He's an American now.