Gender competition??

[Shy Tall Guy]

Watching a science type show the other night, heard a discussion about females and math classes/tests. Seems that females did porrly on math (compared to males) when they felt they were in competition with the males; females did better in female only math classes, and did better on math tests when they were told the tests would not be used in comparison with tests male had taken. It seems the females did almost as well on the average as males when the competition factor was removed.

Interesting, but they didn't really get into the whys and wherefores.

So, ladies (and gentlemen, if you wish), why do you think this is so? Is it that women don't like competing with men? Is it that culture teaches them they aren't supposed to do better than men?

 

[Ordinary Bob]

I've heard the same result from studies on this. But I don't understand why. My sisters were always better at math than I was, yet I was the one that studied mathematics in college.

 

[lilminx]

STG,
Having taken about a bazillion education classes, I have to say that research has shown that girls from a very young age are "taught" that they are not as good at Math than boys. Boys are "taught" that they're not as good at language skills as girls. It's a stereotype that is encpuraged (albeit unknowingly by teachers and parents). As babies, girls are talked to a lot more than boys, and as a result, girls begin speaking at an earleir age than boys and also do better in Language Arts. If they are treated equally in the classroom and are encouraged to do well in both subjects, both boys and girls will get comparable grades- does that make sense?

Now, I'm not sure about spatial reasoning, but I think that boys do better than girls. I don't know if that's an inherent trait, or if it's also due to the way they were brought up.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

i think it could have something to do with one of the older values from our country.. that boys are supposed to know more than girls.. especially when it comes to math and science. the women are supposed to be the housewives and so on.. and therefore, when in "competition" with the men, they dont do as well because of that general value, even though we arent taught that one by our parents anymore.


as it is though, that isnt true for every case (i do better in math than most of my male friends.. and i dont pay attention)..

 

[cymbidia]

Having taken about a zillion education classes, probably many of the same ones lilminx took, i have to concur with her line of reasoning.

Having a undergrad degree in biology and read pretty widely into the field known as 'evolutionary biology', i have this to add:

As we evolved as a species, men's tasks focused on going out singly or in small groups, killing the meat using a variety of methods, most of which involved the use of plane geometry and trig, dragging the meat home, and then, if successful at killing the meat, getting to grab someone to fuck in celebration.

Women's traditional tasks, otoh, involved going out in groups, sorting through the vegetation (most of which was toxic to a greater or lesser degree way back when we were evolving as a species), discussing it over and over with the other women to insure we brought back nothing that would kill everyone, gathering it, remembering where the "good stuff" was from year to year, from campsite to campsite, working the hides that the men brought backin concert with our sister, ongoing child care, cooking, cleaning, unpacking and packing up again, and providing receptacles for the next generation of successful and triumphant hunters and gatherers.

You can see that women evolved to be better interpersonal communicators while men evolved to really need a head for instantaneous use of geometry and other mathematical skills.

It's no wonder men are often inherently better at math than are women - and women so often want to talk everything out. It's genetics, it's who we are as members of the Homo sapiens species.

At least that's what i believe.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

STG,
Having taken about a bazillion education classes, I have to say that research has shown that girls from a very young age are "taught" that they are not as good at Math than boys.

But this doesn't really account for why, when the competition factor is removed, the girls do almost as well as boys. I have my own theories why, but I wanted to hear other's thoughts first. It would seem that if the girls truly thought they weren't as good as boys, that they would do the same regardless of whether they knew the results were being compared or not.

If they are treated equally in the classroom and are encouraged to do well in both subjects, both boys and girls will get comparable grades- does that make sense?

Apparently, even when treated the same, if the competition factor is there, then females do not do as well unless the competition is removed - hence the finding that girls do better in girl only math classes.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

You can see that women evolved to be better interpersonal communicators while men evolved to really need a head for instantaneous use of geometry and other mathematical skills.

It's no wonder men are often inherently better at math than are women - and women so often want to talk everything out. It's genetics, it's who we are as members of the Homo sapiens species.

Actually, that is not what the studies showed. I wasn't asking why women aren't as good as men at math - I think they are; what I was asking was why women limit themselves when in competition with men. If not conciously then sub-conciously.

 

[lilminx]

Actually, that is not what the studies showed. I wasn't asking why women aren't as good as men at math - I think they are; what I was asking was why women limit themselves when in competition with men. If not conciously then sub-conciously.

As I said, it's because from an early age they've been "taught" that they're not as good at Math at boys, therefore making them not as confident in this subject. I think that when they're in competition with boys, subconsciously they don't do as well b/c they think that they're not supposed to. They don't want to appear "mascualine" or not have boys like them b/c they're smart in Math. When the masculine competition is taken away, girls can be more of who they are, whether they're good at Math or not.

In one of my education classes, we watched a video where in a public school, boys and girls were put in separate Math classes due to this problem. The girls did just as well as the boys. The debate was: is this a fair and realistic thing to do? It wasn't an all-girls' school.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

As I said, it's because from an early age they've been "taught" that they're not as good at Math at boys, therefore making them not as confident in this subject. I think that when they're in competition with boys, subconsciously they don't do as well b/c they think that they're not supposed to. They don't want to appear "mascualine" or not have boys like them b/c they're smart in Math. When the masculine competition is taken away, girls can be more of who they are, whether they're good at Math or not.

Probably true - I was just amazed that it could be turned on and off like a switch just by telling them that the test results would not be compared to male's test results (which was a lie - the results were compared in both cases).

In one of my education classes, we watched a video where in a public school, boys and girls were put in separate Math classes due to this problem. The girls did just as well as the boys. The debate was: is this a fair and realistic thing to do? It wasn't an all-girls' school.

I don't see any harm in giving the girls or the girls parents a choice to participate in a single gender class if they want.

I guess the next question I have is for the women on the board; do you feel that when you are in competition with men that you conciously or sub-conciously "submit" by not doing as well as you could? If so, for what reasons?

 

[lilminx]

Probably true - I was just amazed that it could be turned on and off like a switch just by telling them that the test results would not be compared to male's test results (which was a lie - the results were compared in both cases).

I don't see any harm in giving the girls or the girls parents a choice to participate in a single gender class if they want.

I guess the next question I have is for the women on the board; do you feel that when you are in competition with men that you conciously or sub-conciously "submit" by not doing as well as you could? If so, for what reasons?

As awful as it is to say, I think that in high school I did, because I wanted to fit in. I wanted boys to like me, and I wanted girls not to think that I was masculine. Ironically, in junior high I wanted to play a game at recess that mostly boys played: kill the carrier. Whoever had the football was chased and tackled. I wanted to show that I was tough, and it worked. I also had belching contests with the boys- lol- I usually won.

Now, I would try my hardest to do the best job that I could, whether it's physical or mental. I could give a fuck whether I'm up against men, women or both.
The only time I would "submit" is if it was with someone I was in a sexual relationship with. We would both know that I was submitting and why...

 

[Mischka]

I guess the next question I have is for the women on the board; do you feel that when you are in competition with men that you conciously or sub-conciously "submit" by not doing as well as you could? If so, for what reasons?

I'm a naturally competitive person. In school, I would set my sight on the best in the class, and aim to beat that person, regardless of gender. Of course, my parents were extraordinarily supportive and did not set any gender barriers to academic or professional success. They always told me that they would be proud of me as long as I did my best, but that my best better be far above most other people. Except in music. Don't ever ask me to sing.

 

[cymbidia]

(hint: slide to the bottom for a synopsis)

Gender and Cognitive Abilities

http://www.uncc.edu/lvanwall/psycwomen.08.html
II. General intelligence and gender
..A. No gender differences in overall IQ (tests standardized to avoid these differences today)

..B. Great similarity in general memory ability
....1. Verbal, social information (names & faces), women sometimes do better
.....2. Objects, numbers show similar recall
....3. Everyone is better at recalling familiar content areas, so certain types of information are better recalled by women, others by men

..C. Reasoning, problem solving: no difference between genders, even in old age

..D. Creativity differences: depends on task used to measure creativity
....1. Original drawings: no difference, or males better
....2. Verbal tasks: sometimes females are better


III. Spatial ability
..A. What is it? No consistent definition
....1. Map reading
....2. Jigsaw puzzles (demonstrate)
....3. Mazes
....4. Mental rotation tasks (demonstrate)
....5. Recognizing objects from different angles
....6. May be at least 3 separate abilities here
......a. visualization: embedded figures, etc. -- "Where's Waldo?"
......b. spatial perception: horizontal/vertical; Rod and Frame Test (demonstrate)
......c. mental rotation

..B. Seem to be larger gender differences here than any other cognitive ability -- but are these differences really significant?
....1. Not significant on visualization tasks
....2. Males slightly better on spatial perception tasks
......a. rod & frame test: problematic; fear of dark room and male experimenter
......b. use human figure instead of a rod (less abstract): no gender difference

....3. Mental rotation: largest difference of all cognitive tasks
......a. But, distributions are more similar than different; great overlap even here
......b. Gender still accounts for only 16% of variance in scores

....4. Differences we do see don't appear until adolescence

....5. Also, keep in mind that "no difference" studies are harder to publish

http://www.uncc.edu/lvanwall/psycwomen.09.html
II. Gender differences in math ability
..A. Early studies more likely to show differences than current ones

..B. More gender similarities than gender differences

..C. Meta-analysis (1990) on 100 studies, over 3 million people tested: effect size only .15

..D. Age trends are important
....1. Females perform better in elementary school and junior high
....2. Males begin to outperform females in high school, college
....3. Problem solving shows most dramatic differences


..E. Differences are most pronounced among highly gifted students
....1. People who take SAT in jr. high (top 3 to 5 percent on achievement tests)

....2. Twice as many males score over 500, 4 times as many over 600, 13 times as many score over 700

....3. Average math score, high school students, on SAT: males slightly higher than females

....4. But, math portion of SAT has not been standardized to reduce gender differences the way the verbal portion has

..F. Females may actually receive higher grades in math courses (2.74 vs. 2.21)


III. Explanations for cognitive gender differences
..A. Biological explanations
....1. Genetic (spatial ability, for example, thought to be a recessive trait carried on X chromosome) -- no research support
....2. Hormones -- androgen may aid spatial abilities -- research unclear
....3. Brain organization -- females less lateralized than males (both hemispheres take on a variety of tasks)
......a. Lateralization often misunderstood in popular media
......b. Little supporting evidence for these theories

..B. Social explanations
....1. Males take more math courses than females do
....2. Males receive more attention in the classroom
....3. Textbooks in math sometimes promote sexist ideas about ability
....4. Attitudes toward math differ
......a. males more confident of their math ability
......b. males have more positive attitudes about math
......c. females are more cautious in test-taking, checking answers more

IV. If men and women have similar abilities, then why are men's achievements greater? One popular theory of the past: Difference is in motivation!
..A. Achievement motivation: need to achieve; desire to strive for success, excellence
....1. In past, often measured with Thematic Apperception Test
......a. Test itself is a form of projective test, like the Rorschach
......b. Reliability, validity are highly questioned

....2. Current studies tend to use questionnaires:
......a. Do you enjoy doing tasks well, even when no one tells you to do a good job?
......b. Do you feel great satisfaction in mastering a difficult task that you were not sure could be done?
......c. Is success especially pleasurable when you have competed against other people?
......d. Are you a good student (for instance, were you in the top 10% of your high-school class)?
......e. When you are working on a difficult task, do you persist even when you run nto roadblocks?
......f. Do you prefer a task for which you have personal responsibility, rather than one where chance plays an important role?
......g. Do you like receiving feedback about how well you aredoing when you are working on a project?
......h. When given a choice of several tasks, would you pick one that is moderately challenging, rather than very easy or very difficult?
(larger number of "yes" responses indicates high achievement motivation)

..B. Gender comparisons regarding achievement motive: early work
....1. Early studies sometimes found men higher in achievement motive than women

....2. Horner: Fear of success inhibits women more than men
......a. Women write paragraph about "Anne," who is at the top of her med-school class after first-term finals
......b. Men write paragraph about "John" who is in same situation
......c. Unpleasant consequences mentioned by 62% of women and 9% of men
........(1) Anne's classmates hated and envied her
........(2) Anne couldn't get a date

....3. Is fear of success really a female trait?
......a. More recent studies find 49% of women, 45% men show some fear of success
......b. Direct questioning about "fearing" success lead to 91% "no" responses in women across ages from adolescence to 80's

There's more if you follow the link, if you really want to know more, if you even made it this far...

This is info from a upper division course called "Psychology of Women" taught at UNC-Charlotte. What it means is that there are differences in brain performance between men and women, most obviously at the time when adolescence sets in, and that beyond those genetic differences are societal differences as well. However, we're all capable of doing math; that's not in dispute.

Your premise, your question, why "women limit themselves when in competition with men" may be partly answerable in this way: women tend to be far less competitive in traditionally male types of endeavors than are men overall. It may not be that we limit ourselves when in competition with you, instead, we may define success far differently than do you, though our classrooms and boardrooms and monetary successes ARE - most definitely - configured to take into account the male measuring stick and almost always excludes the more traditional means whereby women have historically (and back into prehistory, as my first post on this thread pointed out) succeeded.

This isn't an easy or quick or pop answer sort of question.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: (hint: slide to the bottom for a synopsis)

Your premise, your question, why "women limit themselves when in competition with men" may be partly answerable in this way: women tend to be far less competitive in traditionally male types of endeavors than are men overall. It may not be that we limit ourselves when in competition with you, instead, we may define success far differently than do you

Yes there is the factor that men are more competitive and that women may define their successes differently (being more group socialized than men), but that wouldn't explain why women would intentionally limit their performance when in competition with men - or would it? It might if women felt, in this case, it was more important to get along than to do better.

Thinking about this, I have to wonder why I am not as competitive as other males - for the most part it disinterests me (except with regards to intellectual pursuits). I do compete somewhat with regards to motorsport speed contests, and I used to compete in bicycle races. I did like to play some team sports such as soccer.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think it's that women have a different take on competition altogether, than men do. I don't think women and men compete the same and it makes for a less satisfying competition for women, so they do poorly. Watch a male team win at something, watch how they behave. Then watch a female team win and how they behave. Men don't care how the other side feels about losing because they won and that's all that matters. Women, on the other hand, feel for the losers because they know losing isn't fun and they feel the need to make the other side feel better about themselves. In general. When a woman beats a man, she tries to make him feel better. When a man beats a woman, he enjoys his victory. When a man loses, he gets pissed off and vows to do better next time. When a woman loses, she feels bad about herself. In general. When women compete, they want to win, but they don't want the other people to hurt. When men compete, they want to win and they don't think about the other people's feelings. In general

You take the competition out of it, then a woman doesn't have that emotional baggage to contend with that a man just doesn't care about. I don't think that it has anything to do with gender aptitude or preconditioning toward one particular skill or the other. I think it has to do with the way we compete. For women, competing with men is a really emotionally stressful experience. Men thrive on that kind of competition, but women don't. In general. I'm not talking about a football game, or who can run faster, or who can come up with the best insults, or a specific woman vs. a specific man.