Gays In The Military....Resistance.

69forever

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Just say no to Uncle Sam
No, it is not progress when the military turns a blind eye in order to send openly gay soldiers to die in Iraq. Quite the opposite. In fact, maybe all gays and lesbians should boycott serving our country until our country serves us

By Charles Karel Bouley II
An Advocate.com exclusive posted, October 12, 2005
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It’s official. The United States wants us dead. Us being gays and lesbians. And that’s about it.

Those in charge don’t think we’re fit to marry. Most don’t think we should raise children or have legal rights where that’s concerned. Hell, some states would simply outlaw our existence all together.

But die, well, that’s OK. We can be fodder for political campaigns that divide the nation and, apparently, fodder to feed the terrorists in Iraq. It appears the U.S. military has forgotten its failed “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in the case of Iraq. In fact, according to the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military, the armed forces have forgotten their ban on gays and lesbians altogether where Iraq is concerned. Instead, the Army is telling commanders that even if soldiers come out loudly and proudly, they should be shipped off to the war zone.

Great. Debate us, humiliate us, ostracize us completely as far as the military is concerned during peacetime. But when trouble starts, oh, no, we’re good enough now. Suddenly their worries of gay men molesting poor unsuspecting marines in the showers goes out the window. Their fears of butch lesbians forcing the petite, feminine ladies of the armed forces in to long-term relationships with U-Hauls, plaid, and cats are not as important as battling the terrorists who have taken root in the chaos the Bush administration has created in the Middle East.

What a disgrace, for the armed services, and for gays and lesbians.

There are those who say this is a good thing, that it will show those in charge that we are fit to serve alongside our nongay counterparts and that after Iraq things will change based on our valiant service and lack of any incidents, incidents those closed-minded bigots foretold in their tales of woe and horror about why gays and lesbians couldn’t serve openly in the first place.

My experience tells me otherwise. My experience tells me that bigots and closed-minded individuals will let you sacrifice your life for them but will not repay in kind. They will let you uproot your world, complete their military tasks, and then afterward immediately remove your status of equality back to one of inferiority. Southerners let slaves fight for them. And many expected them to return to their servitude after the war.

The fact is, we shouldn’t tolerate this. The fact is, we shouldn’t serve at all. In fact, we shouldn’t pay federal taxes, and we shouldn’t pay state taxes in states that haven’t at least tried to rectify the inequality under the law that exists for gays and lesbians.

Before we decide to serve our country, to fulfill our responsibility, our country needs to meet its responsibility to us. Before we offer up our lives, bodies, and souls to Uncle Sam, he needs to stop treating us like bastard stepchildren at a family reunion. Before we participate in George Bush’s dirty little war, he needs to stop touring the country touting a constitutional amendment to create a second-class citizenry, particularly when he wants to amend a document that the founding fathers created to guarantee equality and protection for minority opinions.

The fact is, no one should be in Iraq, but least of all gays and lesbians. The democracy the United States is allegedly fighting for—the new, free Iraq—is actually a theocracy, based in Sharia law. Women barely have any rights, let alone gays and lesbians. In Iran, right next door, gays and lesbians get hanged or beheaded. In Iraq many would do much of the same to us. So we’re serving in a military that doesn’t normally want us in it, one that makes us serve in silence, and then are being sent to a country to fight for a new government there that again would seek only to oppress us should we live under it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And it’s time we stop sugarcoating it. Did Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and the rest say that the only way to win the battle for rights in America was as members of the British parliament or as Redcoats? A revolution was started over a tea tax; meanwhile, we are openly targeted by members of government for discrimination, refused the opportunity to serve as free, open human beings in our country’s military, and we’re supposed to continue buying in to it, being good little citizens, hoping one day it will change?

Say it with me: poppycock.

Yes, people will go to jail, or the brig. But it’s time we start standing for something, because it seems these days gays and lesbians don’t stand for much. Our organizations are too busy patting each other on the back, or worse, patting the backs of those nongays who don’t oppress us or who actually vote with us for equality, to really do anything. It’s appalling that the military says, “Hey, they’re OK to die in the desert but not OK to live openly on base in San Clemente or Fort Hood or anyplace else.” It is not all right that when these gay troops return home, their same-sex partners cannot even greet them in the same place others can greet their spouses. No, we have to wait for our loved ones to get to a general area; we’re not allowed on board, on deck, or anyplace else to openly welcome home our partners. It’s a national disgrace and it must stop. And we must stop it.

Just say no. Literally, just say no. Do not enlist. The military needs troops right now. They need us more than we need them. Do not enlist. If you are in the service, get out any legal way you can. And let it be known nationally that we’re not IED fodder, we’re not roadside bomb targets, and we’re not American shrapnel to be blown about while our partners are denied any real benefits under military policy. It’s time we let the United States know we’re not going to lift one finger to defend a country that refuses to let us do so honestly, openly, with dignity.

We’re not going to run off to their dirty little war and then, if we don’t come back, have our partners shunned.

Gays in the military think they’re doing some big patriotic duty. On the contrary, by letting this institution, this government, get away with this kind of behavior, we are buying into a spirit that is so un-American, so unpatriotic, that it sickens me. If the ban can be disregarded or lifted for Iraq, it can be removed permanently. But until that point, and until the point where our partners can live on base, where our unions are recognized on or off, although we’re expected to pay for your weapons, to give tax dollars to pay the salaries of those who fight, we won’t do the fighting.

Until you treat us as full Americans we won’t act like it. And if you, those on the other side, don’t like that philosophy, then change the rules. But we won’t be blown up for you, we won’t be shot at, we won’t be shipped to a foreign land that wouldn’t even let us live openly if we were civilians there and you do nothing, say nothing, to change that. Not once in any policy meeting, to the best of my knowledge, has gay rights been brought up in Iraq or its new constitution. And in our country they’re trying to bastardize ours to dehumanize us.

No, Uncle Sam. You’re the evil uncle that would molest us and not even give us the pleasure of a reach-around (to paraphrase that military classic, Full Metal Jacket). And that must stop. And we can stop it. Until our military grants us the same rights, until our country gives us equal footing, the only fatigues any self-respecting gay or lesbian should wear are to a theme party at a local club, and the only danger we should put ourselves in for our nation is the danger each of us feel each and every day in so many parts of the nation where living openly is enough to get you killed.

We have our own wars to fight at home. We don’t need to fight yours in foreign lands for people that would behead us anyway. Keep your ban. We don’t want to play your war games until we win major fights of our own.
 
Keep fighting. Someday you will succeed. Those last bastions of enforced homophobia will crumble.
 
I call bullshit. First of all, if you reused to pay taxes, that would work against you, because you would then be considered criminals.

Secondly, when you join the Military you give up certain rights no matter who you are.

Thirdly, the statement "Great. Debate us, humiliate us, ostracize us completely as far as the military is concerned during peacetime. But when trouble starts, oh, no, we’re good enough now. Suddenly their worries of gay men molesting poor unsuspecting marines in the showers goes out the window. Their fears of butch lesbians forcing the petite, feminine ladies of the armed forces in to long-term relationships with U-Hauls, plaid, and cats..." is a blatent exaggeration of the concerns that existed regarding fraterniation, which erodes good order and discipline. However, since gender integration this concern has become wider in scope.

So the statement that "we’re serving in a military that doesn’t normally want us in it" is inaccurate because, for the most part, military personnel are not concerned with sexual orietnation. They are following policies implemented by thier civilian leaders.

Not to mention the fact that the article is curiously bereft of any links supporting the claim that homosexuals are being singled out for transfers to Iraq.

So anyway, perhaps we'd prefer that homosexuals are assigned to noncombat roles? Clearly restricing women similarly has advanced gender equality by leaps and bounds. (I really don't have to use a rolleyes in this spot do I? Yeah, didn't think so.)

Oh, and I love how the author in advance equated anyone who expresses the sentiment I just did with homophobes. So right off the bat anyone who disagrees with him must be a bigot.
 
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Of coarse you have proof of all this right? I didn't read any official...like a an internal memo or anyone on the record about this issue. Have proof to back up what you say....could it be that they are dying in the warzone because so many troops are serving there?
 
well that's one of the more absurd things I have read.

To me this just sounds like someone who has a problem with the war and is looking for any avenue they can to stir problems.

Whether you support the war or not, this "article" is a piece of crap.
 
Jagged said:
Of coarse you have proof of all this right? I didn't read any official...like a an internal memo or anyone on the record about this issue. Have proof to back up what you say....could it be that they are dying in the warzone because so many troops are serving there?

What's being said and true in many cases is that gays and lesbians who oppose the war, claim their homosexuality openly, are still being kept in the military and shipped off to Iraq. It's not undifferent than calling up 50 year old men, or lowering the recruitment standards to fill the uniforms, except that everyone else but gay/lesbians are considered full citizens. Don't ask - Don't tell doesn't apply in an unpopular war it would seem.....until you come home again.

It's the hypocracy of the whole idea we are fighting for freedom, when we deny it to our own. That's not to hard to understand. Well, except for stu....maybe.
 
pa-guy said:
well that's one of the more absurd things I have read.

To me this just sounds like someone who has a problem with the war and is looking for any avenue they can to stir problems.

Whether you support the war or not, this "article" is a piece of crap.

See above post. Not being your opinion doesn't make it crap. Isn't that what we're supposedly fighting for? Democracy and the right to your opinion?

Gays and Lesbians ARE discriminated against in the military more than any other part of society. Now needed to bear arms....or even wanting to, it's all forgotten.
Until you come back home. That's absurd. That's crap.
 
show some proof then, or stop prattling on as though this is the gospel of truth.
 
With the stop loss policies that are now in place it's not only gays/lesbians that are being kept in the military.

They aren't letting people out of the military when their term of service is up, not letting people retire as well. They are keeping everyone that they can possibly hang on to that would have been let out or kicked out a few years ago.
 
69forever said:
What's being said and true in many cases is that gays and lesbians who oppose the war, claim their homosexuality openly, are still being kept in the military and shipped off to Iraq. It's not undifferent than calling up 50 year old men, or lowering the recruitment standards to fill the uniforms, except that everyone else but gay/lesbians are considered full citizens. Don't ask - Don't tell doesn't apply in an unpopular war it would seem.....until you come home again.

It's the hypocracy of the whole idea we are fighting for freedom, when we deny it to our own. That's not to hard to understand. Well, except for stu....maybe.

That little shot at me was cute. I understand the idea presented in the article. I still think it's bullshit.

Anyway, like Betticus said, homosexuals aren't being singled out.

And in times of war, you have to make priorities, like oh I dunno say...winning.

Isn't that what we're supposedly fighting for? Democracy and the right to your opinion?

No, we're fighting for survival.

From what I gather, he's not saying it's crap because his opinion doesn't agree with the article, he disagrees with it because it's crap. And disagreeing or calling something crap certainly isn't the same thing as telling someone to keep thier opinion to themselves, last I checked.
 
My conspiracy theories as facts......that is always interesting. Openly gay/lesbian still gets you kicked out rightly or wrongly. The Antiwar crowd will try anything.....saying the government is forcing the poor to fight in the volunteer army? If you had facts or sources.......proof. I would listen. Vietnam more blacks served in combat situations then whites. Was the reason racist? I don't know but at least there are numbers can support the theory.
 
The article doesn't hold water. The military is still kicking people out all the time for being gay. This policy is not going to change under the current administration. Around the start of the war they kicked out 6 Arab linguists at the Defense Language Institute for being gay, after they spent thousands of dollars to train them. One of gay people's best chances for reform is to insert themselves into every aspect of American life, including the military, and show people that they can serve thier country as well as any heterosexual. While it might be tempting to not take part in a society that is so hostile, that would only "prove" to the homophobes that gays don't have what it takes to be productive citizens. Its not fair that gays have to prove themselves but that's the world we live in. The gay/bi friends I have in the military are blazing a trail for others by serving honorably, despite the horrible attitudes they must put up with. I wouldn't blame them if they wanted out, but they don't. I couldn't be more proud of them.
 
Stuponfucious said:
That little shot at me was cute. I understand the idea presented in the article. I still think it's bullshit.

Anyway, like Betticus said, homosexuals aren't being singled out.

And in times of war, you have to make priorities, like oh I dunno say...winning.



No, we're fighting for survival.

Stu,
I think you take little shots like that because you are so easy. We are not fighting for survival in Iraq. We are there because we want to establish a military presence in the region to promote the interests of some Americans. Iraq never presented any threat to the US and was not about to. Politicians with an agenda cooked up some threat which has since been proven groundless. The Saddam Hussein regime did not possess WMDs (although Bush/Cheney assured us they did). They did not have any connection to Al Qaeda and the WTC attack, although Bush/Cheney assured us they did. They did not presaent any threat to their neighbors and/or Israel, although the neocons insisted they did. The Iraqi military barely put up any resistance to the American invaders-how could they threaten anyone? If more people had bothered to become informed, we may not have entered this quagmire we find ourselves in. We could have also saved the lives of thousands, including 2000+ American GIs. But it's much easier to read stories in Literotica than it is to learn about the world affairs, isn't it?
 
I served fought and came home...

pa-guy said:
well that's one of the more absurd things I have read.

To me this just sounds like someone who has a problem with the war and is looking for any avenue they can to stir problems.

Whether you support the war or not, this "article" is a piece of crap.

Yes the men made fun of me but I came home with three Brones Stars and a Pesidential Citation. The guys making fun of me bought home the usuail battle zome ribboms Perhaps we did go to war for the wrong reasons but now its clear that saddom WHO had to be removed...while in service I was not 'open' and am still not. I have still not done the overit act and woudn't ever know how to start.
 
pintip2 said:
Yes the men made fun of me but I came home with three Brones Stars and a Pesidential Citation. The guys making fun of me bought home the usuail battle zome ribboms Perhaps we did go to war for the wrong reasons but now its clear that saddom WHO had to be removed...while in service I was not 'open' and am still not. I have still not done the overit act and woudn't ever know how to start.

Do they still call him So-damn Insane? I thought that was hilarious when I first heard it.
 
Well you have to consider that they joined the military service even though they couldnt be openly gay but when they don't believe in the war they should be able to come out and have a get out of jail free card because we are at war, sorry thats not how it works otherwise you would have straight people who didnt want to go "coming out" so they wouldnt have to go either. So please quit being melodramatic that the US government wants gays and lesbians dead.
 
Lame.....

the U.S. isn't singling out homosexuals to die.. just as much as they are singling out heterosexuals to die.. if you believe this your brain is fried..........

most men in the military don't even believe they have served with gay men.. won't admit it...... I do believe if you are gay you totally have the right to join the military just like you have the right to become a postal worker.....


I'll be the first one to say the war in Iraq is a feckless display of futility......... but to think there's a conspiracy to push gay americans out to the front of the phalanx... is ludicrous....

maybe if you got out of your house and off the internet you wouldn't believe every fuckin' thing you read......
 
mansome said:
most men in the military don't even believe they have served with gay men.. won't admit it...... I do believe if you are gay you totally have the right to join the military just like you have the right to become a postal worker...........

I won't address the rest of your post right now, but this quote is one I can fully support. I know I served with gays in the military. I never questioned that, and never had a real problem with it. Still, many (if not most) veterans would probavbly deny it. Why would sexual orientation be considered important when the job involved is to kill the enemy? Dumb, dumb, dumb...
 
brw02 said:
I won't address the rest of your post right now, but this quote is one I can fully support. I know I served with gays in the military. I never questioned that, and never had a real problem with it. Still, many (if not most) veterans would probavbly deny it. Why would sexual orientation be considered important when the job involved is to kill the enemy? Dumb, dumb, dumb...

yes.. small minded and dumb........ to let your insecurities get in the way of protecting your life is pathetic........... It's like those serving for years with a gay man without knowing it.. respecting, trusting, and caring for him........... but tell him upfront that he's gay and he thinks he's going to assrape him any minute and he can't fully trust that he can support and be with him when it gets rough and dirty...

but to think the American government is recruiting gays just to push them out to the front of the line to purposely kill them is paranoid drug induced wacko babble.......

you might as well be standing behind ruby ridge with your fortress of manure and dynamite...

or Join Spike Lee in the plot to uncover the logistics and evidence of the U.S. government's successfully blowing up the levees in New Orleans to get rid of the poor black people.....
 
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We are not fighting for survival in Iraq. We are there because we want to establish a military presence in the region to promote the interests of some Americans. Iraq never presented any threat to the US and was not about to. Politicians with an agenda cooked up some threat which has since been proven groundless. The Saddam Hussein regime did not possess WMDs (although Bush/Cheney assured us they did). They did not have any connection to Al Qaeda and the WTC attack, although Bush/Cheney assured us they did. They did not presaent any threat to their neighbors and/or Israel, although the neocons insisted they did. The Iraqi military barely put up any resistance to the American invaders-how could they threaten anyone? If more people had bothered to become informed, we may not have entered this quagmire we find ourselves in. We could have also saved the lives of thousands, including 2000+ American GIs. But it's much easier to read stories in Literotica than it is to learn about the world affairs, isn't it?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Well said Stu,

I cannot emit an opinion regarding the homosexual/armed forces issue, I do not live in the States, then all my info would be at least third hand, I do agree that this is an stupid war, initiated to satisfy the greedy needs of money hungry “elite”.
All around the world, we are paying for it, some with human lives, every one with money, that in its majority are going to the Texan oil lords. Thanks Mr. B.
 
Folks, it goes way deeper than Iraq. And yes, the democratic presence is important. We're fighting an ideology, not a country. We're fighting a deeply ingrained concept that if you want something you're way, all you have to do is hurt, kill or scare enough of the right people and you can do and have anything you want. A deep-seated belief that might makes right and if you've got your diety on your side, then it doesn't matter who dies or suffers because you're doing your god's work.

We could sit back and let people like that do their thing. But those who would allow it to happen should watch it just one time. Then decide if you're okay with it. Do you have any idea of the torture and destruction Saddam Hussein's sons alone were responsible for? I'm not saying America or any of the other coalition nations are perfect... but the alternative is that we live under those rules because they are not compatible with our way of life. We either beat 'em or we join 'em.

Did the US decide to send gays into Iraq to kill them off? I don't believe that. More likely, a few souls decided that would be a good excuse to get out of the military because war wasn't what they bargained for when they joined up. Free room and board, college education and a nice fat enlistment bonus are nice, but maybe not worth actually fighting for any political agenda... especially when that political entity doesn't exactly embrace the way you live your life sexually. And it's likely because the armed forces needs people badly during these times, they didn't let the excuse fly. There were times when they didn't let any people get out.. even those eligible for retirement.

I takes a special kind of person to serve their country when their country generally doesn't approve of them. Yes, I hope someday this country will embrace and celebrate gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transexuals much like we (now) do most other people who are not mainstream. National GLBT month... wouldn't that be something? Until then I have faith, I have patience and I do what I can to create an atmosphere of acceptance in my sphere of influence. I believe it will happen one day. Not today... maybe tomorrow.
 
brw02 said:
Stu,
I think you take little shots like that because you are so easy.

I didn't take any shots at anyone.

We are not fighting for survival in Iraq. We are there because we want to establish a military presence in the region to promote the interests of some Americans. Iraq never presented any threat to the US and was not about to.
Politicians with an agenda cooked up some threat which has since been proven groundless. The Saddam Hussein regime did not possess WMDs (although Bush/Cheney assured us they did). They did not have any connection to Al Qaeda and the WTC attack, although Bush/Cheney assured us they did. They did not presaent any threat to their neighbors and/or Israel, although the neocons insisted they did. The Iraqi military barely put up any resistance to the American invaders-how could they threaten anyone? If more people had bothered to become informed, we may not have entered this quagmire we find ourselves in. We could have also saved the lives of thousands, including 2000+ American GIs. But it's much easier to read stories in Literotica than it is to learn about the world affairs, isn't it?

Terrorism presents a threat to humanity and Hussein was a terrrorist. His statement in support of the attacks of 9/11 alone were reason enough to invade. Al Qaeda is not the only terrorist organization in the world, and it's selfish and shortsighted to focus solely on them because they were the only one who attacked us.

WMD was only one of many reasons for the invasion. Granted, it was overemphasized, but I have still not seen any proof that the administration lied about the intelligence it based its conclusions on and I think anyone who just assumes that they lied becasue the intel turned out to be wrong is either obviously biased or just ignorant of how reliable intelligence usually is.

CJ is correct. It's much bigger than Iraq. That country is merely the latest hot spot in a war that started in Afghanistan. It's not about oil or we would've invaded Venezuela, and much easier too. It's about gaining a foothold in the region, breaking up the state terrorists (if you look at a map you will see that Syria and Iran are seperated by Iraq) and establishing some stability, as well as a firm base from which to watch the rest of the region.
 
CJ, I'd agree with a lot of what you say. However, there was no need to launch a military attack on Iraq. If the goal was to take out Saddam, it could have been done from the air. There would have been some civilian casualties, but nowhere near as many as there would be in an invasion/occupation campaign. Saddam had been effectively contained and he had UN inspectors crawling through every possible weapons facility.

We have a higher retention rate for gays and lesbians than we had a few years ago. As in 'Nam, many regulations are loosened. There have been a lot of lesbians doing nursing and clerical work in the military; Gen. Eisenhower's office was staffed by lesbians that he considered indispensable. Gay men seemed to be a lot more careful, keeping their thoughts to themselves. We knew who they were, but it was never openly discussed. The same is probably true today-the military just doesn't want to formally admit so.
 
Isn't this the same way it has always been in the military? Blacks, for example, were free to fight and die for the US since the Civil War. In the field, they were segregated. When they came back, they were still hated. And doesn't it seem like the whole "refuse to serve" thing would entirely backfire on the GLB military community? First of all, it would turn Middle America even MORE against us. "See, those goddamn fags won't even serve their country!" Ooh, and lets not forget the minority community. "They compare themselves to us, but they aren't even willing to do put in what we were." This would only strengthen the support for an outright ban of gays/lesbians/bisexuals in the military.

As for the whole Iraq thing, it could do alot of good. Its been fucked up alot though.
 
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